2007/2008 European football thread

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

If Rafa moves to Bayern I will switch my support to Werder
We don't need a team full of damn Spanish midfielders and our best players to sit 40% of the time even when healthy

This is a chance to rectify your past mistakes and finally come home to Dortmund.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

If Rafa moves to Bayern I will switch my support to Werder
We don't need a team full of damn Spanish midfielders and our best players to sit 40% of the time even when healthy

Nah, the Bayern story seems like a leak from Rafa's side to strengthen his negotiating hand. If he was to leave Liverpool, there will be more suitable alternative roles in Spain and Italy available - not least, the Spanish national job next summer.

[Fallschirmjager]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

Nah, the Bayern story seems like a leak from Rafa's side to strengthen his negotiating hand. If he was to leave Liverpool, there will be more suitable alternative roles in Spain and Italy available - not least, the Spanish national job next summer.

Bayern is a very attractive job
They have a world class team with a excellent financial situation and zero debt

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Bayern is a very attractive job
They have a world class team with a excellent financial situation and zero debt

I'm not saying it isn't (though world class may be pushing it at the moment, failing to qualify for the CL last year, drawing with Bolton in the UEFA Cup, etc ). However, Benitez is very highly thought of in both Spain and Italy where there may be even more attractive jobs within his reach.

[LFC1892]

The new England manager?

[bababui]

Jose Mourihno will be the next Liverpool manager.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by bababui

Jose Mourihno will be the next Liverpool manager.

Not if Liverpool fans have any say in the matter. Which unfortunately, we don't.

This spat is becoming very worrying. Is Hicks the sort of man to put up with insolence from subordinates (even when they're right)? Doesn't seem likely. Rafa is now hinting that he's unhappy with the role given to Rick Parry, and implies he's not capable of securing the transfers the club needs. Effectively, Rafa has lined up a fight between himself and the supporters versus the owners and the CEO.

If this does blow up and Rafa is sacked or walks, I have a feeling Steve Nicol might be the surprise choice: he knows how to work within an American sport environment, has had a modicum of success and would get just enough support from the fans (he was ranked 39th on the top 100 Liverpool players of all time, a couple of years ago).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1771

But Liverpool's emphatic victory, which maintained their unbeaten start to the Premier League season, might not be enough to keep Benitez in his job as he again hit out at American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett over his lack of spending power in the January transfer window.

Less than 24 hours after Hicks had told the Spaniard to 'quit talking about new players and coach those he has already',the Spanish manager made no attempt to clear up speculation about his future, pointedly noting the Americans' lack of knowledge about the transfer system in England compared with 'draft' used in the USA.

'We want the best for the club, and because we have been here for a long time, we know what passion means in football in Europe,' said Benitez, after goals by Gerrard, Dirk Kuyt and Ryan Babel earned Liverpool three points. 'We know what the transfer window market means, we know what it means to sign free — and I insist free — players now. I was not asking to spend money.

'They know the manager needs to manage the squad and prepare the squad for this year and for the future. Mr Hicks wants the best for the club, me too,and because I have three years' experience at this club, I know its passion. I know football in Europe — it is not a draft, so you need to sign players, or talk with agents now.'

Benitez's comments will be seen by many as a suicide note. Even his attire, a track suit instead of his normal shirt and tie, was a reminder that he is unhappy at being regarded as 'just as a coach'.

Benitez, who is frustrated at the club failing to sign off a £17 million deal to buy on-loan Javier Mascherano, will be told in three weeks by his American bosses that there will be no money for new players and he must sell to make the Argentine's stay at Anfield permanent.

But he is clearly not in the mood to stay quiet. 'I have been here for three years and I like this club,' he said.

'I will do my best to win games for my supporters, and I think (Mr Hicks) will try to do the same.

'We had a meeting the day of the Arsenal game and it was really, really positive.

After that, something changed. I tried to explain my ideas, but they said: “Rafa, keep focusing on coaching and training because Rick Parry will be in charge of buying and selling players”. So now I will wait and maybe we will lose some targets, but I will try to do my best.

'From Istanbul to Cardiff or Monaco, we have won a lot of trophies and watched a lot of supporters travel with us, so they know what this club means to me. If we do our job properly, they will understand, and I am sure Mr Hicks wants the best for the club. 'I didn't talk about money.

It was the opposite, to bring money back — we have brought £26 million back this year. I am trying to do the best as a manager for my club to bring money back to spend some money on better players, and you can see the value of the squad.

'I think they will understand this. But they say now Rick Parry is in charge of signing and selling players at this moment, so OK, we will see.'

[Fallschirmjager]

Why the hell is he complaining?

Did not Liverpool spend the budget of some small nations to bring in Torres?

[bababui]

How is Kuyt doing, Rafa?? You spent millions. Will millions more actually improve things? How many young players are you developing?

I think Mourinho would be a good fit here. He's has won League titles and a Champions League title.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Why the hell is he complaining?

Did not Liverpool spend the budget of some small nations to bring in Torres?

No. Liverpool's total net spend in the summer was about £25m, which is about £5m more than usual. What's more, that came from increased revenue within the club (TV, merchandising and prize money from reaching another CL final) - not a penny came from the billionaire owners, but from Liverpool's - Rafa's - success.

Originally Posted by bababui

How is Kuyt doing, Rafa?? You spent millions. Will millions more actually improve things? How many young players are you developing?

I think Mourinho would be a good fit here. He's has won League titles and a Champions League title.

Kuyt's doing ok, played well today. See above re: millions. If you actually read the articles posted above, you'll note that money isn't entirely the issue: Rafa is trying to sign free players and being told he isn't to deal with the transfers any more. Rafa's record on finding and developing young talent is excellent. He has picked up highly rated youngsters from across Europe and South America (20 year old Brazilian Lucas had an excellent game today, 20 year old Babel was explosive off the bench, scoring at the end of the best passing move of the game), has put effort into the academy and the youth side has won the youth cup 2 years running for the first time in the trophy's history, let alone the club's. Liverpool have one of the younger first team squads in the PL.

Mourinho would be an awful fit. He needs more money than Rafa, he likes more control than Rafa, he's previously insulted Liverpool fans and is universally hated by the club's followers. His vastly more expensive side has been tactically outclassed by Rafa in direct high-profile games between the two, repeatedly. Rafa has won league titles and the Champions League too, btw. Where's the fit?

[bababui]

Babel was developed in the Ajax youth system and bought this summer; Lucas in Brazil. These dont count. I am refering to players that he actually DEVELOPED. Arsenal is full of young players like this.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by bababui

Babel was developed in the Ajax youth system and bought this summer; Lucas in Brazil. These dont count. I am refering to players that he actually DEVELOPED. Arsenal is full of young players like this.

Wenger has been manager of Arsenal for 11 years, Rafa of Liverpool for 3 and a half. How is he supposed to have found, developed and promoted a team full of youth players to the same extent as Wenger in a third of the time?

By the way, Arsenal's development of young players is often overstated; most of theirs are also picked up from other clubs at the age of 16/17 rather than being entirely homegrown.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

Wenger has been manager of Arsenal for 11 years, Rafa of Liverpool for 3 and a half. How is he supposed to have found, developed and promoted a team full of youth players to the same extent as Wenger in a third of the time?

By the way, Arsenal's development of young players is often overstated; most of theirs are also picked up from other clubs at the age of 16/17 rather than being entirely homegrown.

It looks fairly certain that Rafa is gone. Who would you like to lead the team and would you agree that the Wenger system is preferable for a team both financially and strategically, rather than buying a bunch of high priced players and hoping they can play together?

[redmarkYankees]

Number of fully "homegrown" players fielded by Liverpool yesterday: two.
Number of fully "homegrown" players fielded by Arsenal yesterday: zero.

Only 2 of Arsenal's 13 players used yesterday were brought to the club as young as 16 or 17; several more around 19-22, as were half the Liverpool team, in addition to the two scousers.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by redmarkYankees

Number of fully "homegrown" players fielded by Liverpool yesterday: two.
Number of fully "homegrown" players fielded by Arsenal yesterday: zero.

Only 2 of Arsenal's 13 players used yesterday were brought to the club as young as 16 or 17; several more around 19-22, as were half the Liverpool team, in addition to the two scousers.

I think an under 18 brought to a club and trained and developed into their unique system can be defined as homegrown.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by bababui

It looks fairly certain that Rafa is gone. Who would you like to lead the team and would you agree that the Wenger system is preferable for a team both financially and strategically, rather than buying a bunch of high priced players and hoping they can play together?

I'm not yet sure it's "certain" that Rafa will be leaving.

Your 'Wenger premise' is basically flawed: he has spent a lot of money as Arsenal manager. He's now been there long enough to have some youngsters emerging, but again - most of them were bought at 18/19/20, for significant money, with a few more at the ages of 16/17 for big money (or 'stolen', as Barcelona might argue about Fabregas). And that's in the last four or five years (when funding was tight when building the Emirates stadium) - prior to that, he was quite happy to splash cash on established players, some of them pretty poor signings too, as well as youngsters. Even in the last couple of years he's bought players in their mid 20s like Hleb and Rosicky for approx £10m each, or shelled out significant money for highly rated youngsters like Walcott. But no, he's the media darling who is brilliant at developing virtually free, unknown young talent...

If a manager is in the same job for 10 years, he's obviously doing something right. He's also going to get some young gems come through simply on the law of averages, though. I'd say Ferguson's 90's Man Utd side was infact a much better example of developing young talent - Nevilles, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Giggs.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by bababui

I think an under 18 brought to a club and trained and developed into their unique system can be defined as homegrown.

Didn't say they weren't; I was pointing out that Arsenal's side yesterday was slightly less "homegrown" than Liverpool's was, and only a little younger.

[Raderick]

baby jebus cries when Manchester United loses

[redmarkYankees]

Insomnia's a wonderful thing...

Arsenal's squad 1999-2000: i.e. the same stage of Wenger's reign as Benitez is now at for Liverpool.

David Seaman (35) - inherited
Lee Dixon (35) - inherited
Gilles Grimandi (28) - £2m
Martin Keown (33) - inherited
Silvinho (25) - £4m
Tony Adams (32) - inherited (homegrown)
Nigel Winterburn (34) - inherited
Oleg Luznhy (31) - £2.5m
Patrick Vieira (23) - £3.5m
Ray Parlour (26) - inherited (homegrown)
Fredrik Ljungberg (22) - £3m
Emmanuel Petit (28) - £3.5m
Marc Overmars (26) - £5m
Thierry Henry (21) - £10m
Nwankwo Kanu (23) - £3m
Dennis Bergkamp (30) - £7.5m
Davor Suker (31) - £1.5m



How many youngsters on the fringes of the team in Wenger's early days are still in the Arsenal team, 6 or 7 years later? None.

[Muppetus Galacticus]

He's tall, he's quick, his name's a porno flick, Emmanuel! Emmanuel!