2007/2008 European football thread

[Big Hugg]

Originally Posted by Muppetus Galacticus

Southampton's Player of the Year and Northern Ireland international defender Chris Baird, is off to Fulham for just over £3M.

http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?...ham+land+Baird


Not surprising that Sanchez will look to grab some of his players from when he was manager at Northern Ireland and that was probably the difference in Baird going to Fulham instead of Sunderland. Both sides may well be fighting to stay up so it's a good boost for the Cottagers.

I like what Fulham has done so far: Diomansy Kamara (£6M), Baird (~£3M), Aaron Hughes (~£1M), Steven Davis (£4M), and they have apparently signed Paul Konchesky (£2M) and David Healy (£1.5M) as well.

Sanchez got all 4 Northern Ireland internationals that he wanted. He's still got about £7.5 left of the £25M Al-Fayed gave him for this period.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Nobody they've faced in this Copa America would seriously challenge any of the major European teams.

Let's see if any of the major European teams can make a similiar run through Euro 2008. And I wonder what major Euro powers you are talking about. The Italians..who needed a bogus penalty call to beat Australia; the French...who tied both Switzerland and South Korea in the last WC; the English who could only beat Paraguay 1-0 on an own goal and Trinidad and Tobago by 2 late goals and beat Ecuador 1-0 in the round of 16?

The gap in talent internationally is narrowing very quickly. Let's not be too quick dismissing these South American teams.

[mlyons]

I'm certainly not talking about England.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

Argentina have swept through this tourney with 5 easy wins outscoring their opposition 16-3. Nary a close match amongst them. Of course, it could all come undone against their arch rivals Brazil sunday.

Trust me they wouldn't be doing that in the European Championship finals, they don't do it in the World Cup so doubtful they would do it in the Euro's.

Last 20+ years against Europen teams in competative games.

2006 World Cup
Knockout Stage 1-1 Germany (lost on penalties)
Group Game 6-0 Serbia (group whipping boys)
Group Game 0-0 Holland

2002 World Cup
Group Game 0-1 England
Group Game 1-1 Sweden

1998 World Cup
Group Game 1-0 Croatia

1994 World Cup
Group game 4-0 Greece (group whipping boys, Bulgaria also beat them 4-0)
Group Game 1-2 Bulgaria
Knockout Stage 2-3 Romania

1990 World Cup
Group Stage 2-0 Russia
Group Stage 1-1 Romania
Knockout Stage 0-0 Yugoslavia (3-2 pens)
Knockout Stage 1-1 Italy (4-3 pens)
Final 0-1 West Germany

During 90 minutes of play.

Played - 14
Won - 4
Lost - 4
Drawn - 6

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

Let's see if any of the major European teams can make a similiar run through Euro 2008. And I wonder what major Euro powers you are talking about. The Italians..who needed a bogus penalty call to beat Australia; the French...who tied both Switzerland and South Korea in the last WC; the English who could only beat Paraguay 1-0 on an own goal and Trinidad and Tobago by 2 late goals and beat Ecuador 1-0 in the round of 16?

The gap in talent internationally is narrowing very quickly. Let's not be too quick dismissing these South American teams.

A European team wont do it because it's a deeper and better competition, a poor England team managed by a poor manager but what the Paraguay, Trinidad and Ecuador games have in common as you say is "beat".

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by Big Hugg

I like what Fulham has done so far: Diomansy Kamara (£6M), Baird (~£3M), Aaron Hughes (~£1M), Steven Davis (£4M), and they have apparently signed Paul Konchesky (£2M) and David Healy (£1.5M) as well.

Sanchez got all 4 Northern Ireland internationals that he wanted. He's still got about £7.5 left of the £25M Al-Fayed gave him for this period.

And don't forget a virtual new signing in Bullard, he isn't the greatest player but will work his socks off and a great player to have in the dressing room.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

A European team wont do it because it's a deeper and better competition, a poor England team managed by a poor manager but what the Paraguay, Trinidad and Ecuador games have in common as you say is "beat".

Not anymore, Sure you have Germany and Italy that are world class. But the paraguays, Uruguays, Chile's and up and coming Peru and Venezuela would be able to compete with the Europeans. When we consider the true world class talent, fewer and fewer of it is from the big and powerful Euro footballing nations.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

Not anymore, Sure you have Germany and Italy that are world class. But the paraguays, Uruguays, Chile's and up and coming Peru and Venezuela would be able to compete with the Europeans. When we consider the true world class talent, fewer and fewer of it is from the big and powerful Euro footballing nations.

Venezuela were hosts and haven't done anything before in the Copa and probably wont in the future, didn't Uruguay struggle to qualify from their group ? Didn't Chile get beat 3-0 by Brazil and 6-1 by Argentina ? If you played a qualification for the World Cup with European and South American teams in the same groups I'd say Argentina and Brazil would qualify, past them I'd struggle to put my money on any of the other South Americans, maybe Mexico and Uruguay but past that I would say at least 10-15 European teams are by far better than the likes of Paraguay, Chile, Peru and the likes.

Also it isn't being biased as I get to watch alot of South American football when I sneak my break at work while the South American football is on

[bababui]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Venezuela were hosts and haven't done anything before in the Copa and probably wont in the future, didn't Uruguay struggle to qualify from their group ? Didn't Chile get beat 3-0 by Brazil and 6-1 by Argentina ? If you played a qualification for the World Cup with European and South American teams in the same groups I'd say Argentina and Brazil would qualify, past them I'd struggle to put my money on any of the other South Americans, maybe Mexico and Uruguay but past that I would say at least 10-15 European teams are by far better than the likes of Paraguay, Chile, Peru and the likes.

Also it isn't being biased as I get to watch alot of South American football when I sneak my break at work while the South American football is on

All this is further reason why the World Cup must be held every two years. Also, the officiating has to be altered to allow for more physical play. It really makes it hard for the African and South American teams to adapt to a style they arent used to playing.

[ukhotstove]

I'd also have to say with Brazil fielding a second team and didn't America ? that the Copa isn't taken serious, if England did what Brazil did in the Euro's they'd be strung up by their toes. David Bentley was ripped apart by the press, fans and England managment when he said he didn't want to play because he was tired and that was only the Under 21's Euros.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by bababui

When we consider the true world class talent, fewer and fewer of it is from the big and powerful Euro footballing nations.

That's true, but it's not because of the second-tier South American nations. It's place like Nigeria, Ghana, and the Ivory Coast. Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chile aren't producing world-class players right now. Guys like Roque Santa Cruz, Jorge Valdivia, and Diego Forlan are solid players with decent careers, but they're nowhere near the elite levels of the top players in the world. Can you name anyone playing for one of the second-tier South American teams who you'd put in the top 10 in the world at his position?

[bababui]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

I'd also have to say with Brazil fielding a second team and didn't America ? that the Copa isn't taken serious, if England did what Brazil did in the Euro's they'd be strung up by their toes. David Bentley was ripped apart by the press, fans and England managment when he said he didn't want to play because he was tired and that was only the Under 21's Euros.

Brazil didnt actually field a B team..more like 1a. They didnt have their thirty somethings and Ronaldinho wasnt there but most of the players on this team will be playing in WC 2010. Brazil is going through a tactical transformation to Dunga style football. Another issue for Brazil is that the talent gap between it and the rest of the continent is shrinking. Uruguay might well ave the best striker set in the world. Paraguay might have the some of the best defenders. Brazil really hasnt been a dominant force since WC 2002. They were more than fortunate to beat Argentina in the finals of the last CA.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

All this is further reason why the World Cup must be held every two years. Also, the officiating has to be altered to allow for more physical play. It really makes it hard for the African and South American teams to adapt to a style they arent used to playing.

Every two years wouldn't work simple reason the South Americans rest their players during the Copa were as European teams play their strongest teams in the Euros so you would either have the South Americans having an advantage or the Euros would have to do the same and play weakened teams, why should the European Championship have to suffer for the sake of a World Cup every 2 years in fact really they would have to scrap both the Copa and Euro because of World Cup qualification.

Don't understand the physical part of play as the premiership is probably the most physical in the world, so by that England are the most penalised because of the rules.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

Brazil didnt actually field a B team..more like 1a. They didnt have their thirty somethings and Ronaldinho wasnt there but most of the players on this team will be playing in WC 2010. Brazil is going through a tactical transformation to Dunga style football. Another issue for Brazil is that the talent gap between it and the rest of the continent is shrinking. Uruguay might well ave the best striker set in the world. Paraguay might have the some of the best defenders. Brazil really hasnt been a dominant force since WC 2002. They were more than fortunate to beat Argentina in the finals of the last CA.

But it still was a weakened team and their still in the final so shows the lack of depth in South America.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by mlyons

That's true, but it's not because of the second-tier South American nations. It's place like Nigeria, Ghana, and the Ivory Coast. Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chile aren't producing world-class players right now. Guys like Roque Santa Cruz, Jorge Valdivia, and Diego Forlan are solid players with decent careers, but they're nowhere near the elite levels of the top players in the world. Can you name anyone playing for one of the second-tier South American teams who you'd put in the top 10 in the world at his position?

I have no idea how you would measure who the 10 best players are at their positions. There is still lots of prejudice in the Euro football world toward these players. Yet many are doing very well in the Argentina, Brazil and Mexican top leagues. The only truly dominant football power is Brazil and its coming back to the pack. Again, I would like to see this resolved on the field.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

But it still was a weakened team and their still in the final so shows the lack of depth in South America.

Brazil got a huge gift from the referee when he allowed their last PK to count. Maybe they might have won anyway...but maybe.

Seeing as how Greece, of all countries, is the champ of Europe I could then argue that this shows the lack of talent in Europe.

[Fallschirmjager]

Germany winning Euro 2008 is already pretty much a forgone conclusion so you need to compare the Copa winner to Germanuy

[bababui]

He has arisen!!!!

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by bababui

Uruguay might well ave the best striker set in the world.

If you think Diego Forlan and Alvaro Recoba are better than Tevez/Messi, Van Nistelrooy/Van Persie, Trezeguet/Henry, Martins/Yakubu, Torres/Villa, Drogba/Kalou, or Podolski/Klose, you're nuts.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by mlyons

If you think Diego Forlan and Alvaro Recoba are better than Tevez/Messi, Van Nistelrooy/Van Persie, Trezeguet/Henry, Martins/Yakubu, Torres/Villa, or Podolski/Klose, you're nuts.

Tevez/Messi..maybe not as good.

The rest absolutely as good or better. In fact, some of these guys, van Nistelroy, Trezeguet, Henry are over the hill.

Forlan/Recoba get punished for playing in what is basically a small market country. But based on raw talent they are as good as anyone.