Roger Clemens=the white Barry Bonds

[Jason Moyer]

The section of the report covering the effects of HGH is pretty interesting. It seems like the benefits would be fairly negligible to a non-injured position player, and incredibly useful for a pitcher. At least, assuming the report is correct in that it rebuilds damaged tissue and doesn't increase muscle mass.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

For example, if the first major steroids user to come out was someone with the popularity similar to Ripken or Jeter, and that player can handle a masterful teary campaign to apologize, people wouldn't have had such a negative feeling about steroids usage.

I don't know, the masterful teary campaign did not work so well for McGwire.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

McGwire had the benefit of the doubt until 2003 or so.

Not according to the shows I listened to. I heard it as early as 1999 (regarding how he was using Andro to possibly cover up what really went on) and it was quite the topic in 2001 when his production was slipping.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by magnet

Sure, you can claim anything you want. But to claim Bonds showed no marked improvement is just ignoring the facts.

Barry Bonds 1986-2000: 2 seasons with an OPS+ over 200 (205 in '92, 204 in '93); 3 seasons over 175 OPS+; 9 seasons with an OPS+ under 175

Barry Bonds 2001-2004 OPS-pluses: 259, 268, 231, 263

It's just an issue of how you frame it. The point is Bonds' career curve is not more out of norm than Clemens.

There are certainly ways to consider Clemens' career curve normal, but that same logic could also used to consider Bonds' career curve normal.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

I don't know, the masterful teary campaign did not work so well for McGwire.

I think McGwire's reputation was very fine during the andro crisis. The later issues with steroids were bad simply because Bonds was already in the steroids picture, therefore the issue was already tainted.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

I think McGwire's reputation was very fine during the andro crisis. The later issues with steroids were bad simply because Bonds was already in the steroids picture, therefore the issue was already tainted.

But andro was neither illegal or banned from MLB at the time. I think Giambi is a better case where it seems he has basically been given a free pass since he freely admitted his use of steroids. Whereas with Bonds, McGwire, and Palmeiro there had been nothing but adamant denial. I would speculate it is more a case of people not liking being lied to that causes the bigger difference than Bonds tainting the steroids issue.

[Jordan]

His name doesn't necessarily surprise me, but it seems that in his case there was an axe to grind. We'll see

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

But andro was neither illegal or banned from MLB at the time. I think Giambi is a better case where it seems he has basically been given a free pass since he freely admitted his use of steroids. Whereas with Bonds, McGwire, and Palmeiro there had been nothing but adamant denial. I would speculate it is more a case of people not liking being lied to that causes the bigger difference than Bonds tainting the steroids issue.

Yeah, so I don't think McGwire is really related to what I said at all.

As for being lied to, I don't think that was the issue. How do we even know what was true about Palmeiro at the time? It's possible Palmeiro was telling the truth, and Tejada really was the one giving Palmeiro the steroids for all we knew. Few people cared about the Tejada link at the time.

I don't think people cared that much about the truth.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

It's possible Palmeiro was telling the truth, and Tejada really was the one giving Palmeiro the steroids for all we knew.

That certainly seems more likely than it did 5 hours ago.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Yeah, so I don't think McGwire is really related to what I said at all.

As for being lied to, I don't think that was the issue. How do we even know what was true about Palmeiro at the time? It's possible Palmeiro was telling the truth, and Tejada really was the one giving Palmeiro the steroids for all we knew. Few people cared about the Tejada link at the time.

I don't think people cared that much about the truth.

I disagree, I think few people cared about the Tejada link because it looked like Palmeiro was caught lying and potentially lying more by using Tejada's name to try and cover up his own. Like McGwire, Palmeiro has lost a lot of popularity and credibility because they are perceived as both a liar and a cheater, not just because they were cheaters.

You are right about us not knowing the truth about the Palmeiro situation. But for all we know, Bonds is telling the truth that he never knowingly took steroids. We choose to believe what we want to believe about the situation.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

I disagree, I think few people cared about the Tejada link because it looked like Palmeiro was caught lying and potentially lying more by using Tejada's name to try and cover up his own

If people cared about the truth, they wouldn't have settled for a simple "Palmeiro lied" answer.

And I have to stress that all those things happened after Bonds was strongly linked to BALCO and everything, which already made steroids a notorious issue in MLB. Without that, Palmeiro wouldn't have to go to the congress at first place.


Just look at NFL. People cared little about steroids abuse over there, because they didn't have some hated player linked to steroids to hype the issue up.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

If people cared about the truth, they wouldn't have settled for a simple "Palmeiro lied" answer.

And I have to stress that all those things happened after Bonds was strongly linked to BALCO and everything, which already made steroids a notorious issue in MLB. Without that, Palmeiro wouldn't have to go to the congress at first place.


Just look at NFL. People cared little about steroids abuse over there, because they didn't have some hated player linked to steroids to hype the issue up.

But the NFL also did a great job of getting steroids out of the game to help eliminate the speculation that occurs in baseball. While I am not naive enough to believe that no PEDs are used in the NFL, the league has done a great job at making that the perception.

When I say that people do not like to be lied to, I am not suggesting that they will go out of their way to find the truth. The perception of what the truth is becomes more important than the reality. That is what I am suggesting happened in the case of Palmeiro.

[Prodigal Son]

Fred McGriff isn't on the list. He should get in the Hall of Fame. He (and similar players) has been the biggest victim of this fiasco.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

But the NFL also did a great job of getting steroids out of the game to help eliminate the speculation that occurs in baseball. While I am not naive enough to believe that no PEDs are used in the NFL, the league has done a great job at making that the perception.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. They just make a far smaller deal out of it than MLB.

Shawn Merriman was suspended for failing a steroid test last year and still was voted into the Pro Bowl. That says an awful lot, doesn't it?

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by mikev

I'm going to have to disagree with that. They just make a far smaller deal out of it than MLB.

Shawn Merriman was suspended for failing a steroid test last year and still was voted into the Pro Bowl. That says an awful lot, doesn't it?

That is a good point. I do not know why but everytime I see an NFL player get suspended, I just assume it is narcotics and not PEDs.

[Prodigal Son]

Football stats (especially for a DL) don't mean a ton. The average football fan probably doesn't even know who holds most of the key all-time records in the sport.

I think that has a lot to do with why people don't care as much about steroid use in football. And some people do care as much. I will always lack respect for Merriman because of his cheating.

[jerrycapo]

dola,

Again I believe that it also has to do with the perception of the player being a liar. Most of the players in the NFL who test positive, issue an apology not a denial or blame it on taking a banned substance that is not a PED and they are believed to be telling the truth.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

But the NFL also did a great job of getting steroids out of the game to help eliminate the speculation that occurs in baseball.

If you believe that, then I think you enjoy being lied to.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jerrycapo

dola,

Again I believe that it also has to do with the perception of the player being a liar. Most of the players in the NFL who test positive, issue an apology not a denial or blame it on taking a banned substance that is not a PED and they are believed to be telling the truth.

Exactly my point. People only care about perceptions, not the truth. Sports are entertainments where how they make people feel is the most important thing.

NFL is good at creating the perception that they are well-covered on the drug issues, and people buy into that.

It's not about being lied to, but about how to handle public relationships.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

It's not about being lied to, but about how to handle public relationships.

But public relations usually consists of lying to people, or at least spinning something.