Roger Clemens=the white Barry Bonds

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

So the Jays trainers and doctor are saying that they don't remember Clemens being treated for an abcess on his bottom, despite McNamee claiming otherwise. It will be interesting to see what his medical record says, because it seems like McNamee can't afford too many more credibility issues.

It would be the most interesting if the records are lost. That way any version of the story could be true.

[The Wolf]

Besides being lost, records can also be incomplete, altered, edited or completely replaced.

If I could ever communicate just one thing to anyone on this board it would be to have no faith in records.

[BaseballMan]

Oh that crazy Brian McNamee. Now he turns in bloody syringes as evidence.
He said he kept them just in case Clemens would deny using steroids.
Oh come on. He had ESP in 2001 and knew the govt would get involved and kept the syringes just in case. Just the ones he used on Clemens and no other players.
Yeah right.
Sure hope any DNA test can show if it is Clemens DNA or not and if there is traces of steroids as to when the steroids were put in/ on the syringe.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Oh that crazy Brian McNamee. Now he turns in bloody syringes as evidence.
He said he kept them just in case Clemens would deny using steroids.
Oh come on. He had ESP in 2001 and knew the govt would get involved and kept the syringes just in case. Just the ones he used on Clemens and no other players.
Yeah right.
Sure hope any DNA test can show if it is Clemens DNA or not and if there is traces of steroids as to when the steroids were put in/ on the syringe.

Yeah I agree that this is really a stretch by McNamee. It's real easy to plant HGH or steroid remnants on a syringe, but how he is going to get Clemens' DNA on there??

[Russ]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Oh that crazy Brian McNamee. Now he turns in bloody syringes as evidence.
He said he kept them just in case Clemens would deny using steroids.
Oh come on. He had ESP in 2001 and knew the govt would get involved and kept the syringes just in case. Just the ones he used on Clemens and no other players.
Yeah right.
Sure hope any DNA test can show if it is Clemens DNA or not and if there is traces of steroids as to when the steroids were put in/ on the syringe.

Maybe he wasn't thinking about the gov't, just the tens of millions in Clemens' bank account.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Russ

Maybe he wasn't thinking about the gov't, just the tens of millions in Clemens' bank account.

Oh he was thinking of millions all right. Only it wasnt Clemen's money. More like its the money from book deal he will get for a book we all know hes gonna write.
Cha-Ching.
So we are quick to judge Clemens guilty but are suppose to beleive this guy just happened to keep syringes just in case.
Yeah i guess i would too if i wanted to falsely accuse someone you know just in case the accused might denie it.

The syringes either dont contain Clemens DNA or how do we know he didnt add anything to it after the fact. He could have lied to Clemens about what he was giving him but if thats the case then why didnt Clemens body change.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Oh that crazy Brian McNamee. Now he turns in bloody syringes as evidence.
He said he kept them just in case Clemens would deny using steroids.
Oh come on. He had ESP in 2001 and knew the govt would get involved and kept the syringes just in case. Just the ones he used on Clemens and no other players.
Yeah right.
Sure hope any DNA test can show if it is Clemens DNA or not and if there is traces of steroids as to when the steroids were put in/ on the syringe.

So you just love rushing to judgement on McNamee?

[Skipaway]

It's actually a bit interesting. Other than Clemens himself, who else has jumped out to accuse McNamee of lying?

McNamee said he gave Pettitte and Knoblauch HGH. One admitted it, and the other didn't deny it.

We've yet to know what Jim Murray has to say.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

So you just love rushing to judgement on McNamee?

But its ok to rush to judgement on Clemens?
Oh wait because McNamee said so its true.
I guess its common practice for trainers to save syringes.
You know just in case they may need it to prove their case.
If this had happen in the 2004-2007 seasons i might beleive him.
But this happened when baseball was basically ignoring the whole steroid problem. So does it really make sense that he would save syringes from one player when there wasnt much sign that baseball was gonna do anything about the problem. And if these syringes are truly from Clemens and did contain steroids, then why didnt he offer it to the Mitchell investigation?
They did collect copies of checks so are we to beleive they wouldnt have collected this so called evidence?

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Vezna31

Yeah I agree that this is really a stretch by McNamee. It's real easy to plant HGH or steroid remnants on a syringe, but how he is going to get Clemens' DNA on there??

Well Clemens did admit he injected him with B-12 so McNamee could have saved it and then added then plant the steroids. I dont know if they can tell if the steroids and blood were put on the syringe at the same time.
But saving this stuff for 7 years?
If it does contain Clemens DNA & steroids then McNamee might be telling the truth but if not then the case should just be closed. But it will probably be inconclusive.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

But its ok to rush to judgement on Clemens?
Oh wait because McNamee said so its true.
I guess its common practice for trainers to save syringes.
You know just in case they may need it to prove their case.
If this had happen in the 2004-2007 seasons i might beleive him.
But this happened when baseball was basically ignoring the whole steroid problem. So does it really make sense that he would save syringes from one player when there wasnt much sign that baseball was gonna do anything about the problem. And if these syringes are truly from Clemens and did contain steroids, then why didnt he offer it to the Mitchell investigation?
They did collect copies of checks so are we to beleive they wouldnt have collected this so called evidence?

Because so far no evidence is supporting the Clemens side.

McNamee already has Pettitte and Knoblauch proving at least some of things he said are true. What does Clemens have?

I think your reasoning about the syringe thing is just a stretch. There are tons of scenarios for this kind of thing. It's not like McNamee doesn't know he'd be asked about motivations about keeping these syringe, and we can simply wait for him to answer the questions in the Congress.

Same for the whole Jim Murray deal. Wouldn't you want to hear what Jim Murray has to say?

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Because so far no evidence is supporting the Clemens side.

McNamee already has Pettitte and Knoblauch proving at least some of things he said are true. What does Clemens have?

I think your reasoning about the syringe thing is just a stretch. There are tons of scenarios for this kind of thing. It's not like McNamee doesn't know he'd be asked about motivations about keeping these syringe, and we can simply wait for him to answer the questions in the Congress.

Same for the whole Jim Murray deal. Wouldn't you want to hear what Jim Murray has to say?

Pettitte admitted to using it two times. Thats hardly the same as admitting to using it for 3 years. Because one person wanted to try it to help with an injury means Clemens is lying?
Clemens offered taped conversation but that of course was as setup.
He offers a report on his career.
His stats are not unbeleivable for a player without steroids.
His body hasnt changed.
What evidence do you think he could offer?
My reasoning is a stretch? It makes sense to you that he would save this stuff for 7 years? Come on thats a bit of stretch. I could see the last few years but not going back 7 years ago. Did he keep syringes on Pettitte & Knoblauch too?
Sure i want to hear what Jim Murray says but McNamee needs to prove Clemens is guilty. Clemens should not have to prove he is innocent.

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Pettitte admitted to using it two times. Thats hardly the same as admitting to using it for 3 years. Because one person wanted to try it to help with an injury means Clemens is lying?
Clemens offered taped conversation but that of course was as setup.
He offers a report on his career.
His stats are not unbeleivable for a player without steroids.
His body hasnt changed.
What evidence do you think he could offer?
My reasoning is a stretch? It makes sense to you that he would save this stuff for 7 years? Come on thats a bit of stretch. I could see the last few years but not going back 7 years ago. Did he keep syringes on Pettitte & Knoblauch too?
Sure i want to hear what Jim Murray says but McNamee needs to prove Clemens is guilty. Clemens should not have to prove he is innocent.

I don't have an opinion one way or another on Clemens' innocence or guilt because, frankly, I don't care.

But a few points about your points:

1) Taped conversation. Notice during the conversation he never asks McNamee "Why did you lie about injecting me with steroids when you know that I've never taken them?" or something along those lines.

2) He offers a report on his career. So?

3) His stats. His stats are tremendous. The best pitcher of his generation. How good would they have to be for you to be at least a little suspicious?

4) His body hasn't changed. Besides for Kevin Brown, can you name a pitcher that has either been suspended or listed on the Mitchell Report whose body has noticibly changed? The hitters bulk up for the power. The pitchers are aiming for recovery and the extra 2-3 MPH, not turning into Barry Bonds.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

I don't have an opinion one way or another on Clemens' innocence or guilt because, frankly, I don't care.

But a few points about your points:

1) Taped conversation. Notice during the conversation he never asks McNamee "Why did you lie about injecting me with steroids when you know that I've never taken them?" or something along those lines.

2) He offers a report on his career. So?

3) His stats. His stats are tremendous. The best pitcher of his generation. How good would they have to be for you to be at least a little suspicious?

4) His body hasn't changed. Besides for Kevin Brown, can you name a pitcher that has either been suspended or listed on the Mitchell Report whose body has noticibly changed? The hitters bulk up for the power. The pitchers are aiming for recovery and the extra 2-3 MPH, not turning into Barry Bonds.

He told McNamee to tell the truth. He obviously wasnt talking about which weights he used. Common sense tells you he didnt have to say steroids.

What other evidence does he have besides his career?

His stats are suspicious? He had quality seasons besides the ones he was suppose to be using steroids after 1997. What about when he was in Houston. Or did he have another trainer giving him steroids?

Even if they take them for to different things shouldnt taking steroids give you some of the same physical signs?

[KurtBevacqua]

This seems like a big non-issue. Yeah, he could have Clemens' DNA there if they were really the needles he used, but there are chain of custody issues preventing this from being admissable evidence. I also read a quote from a drug testing expert saying with the time elapsed any evidence of steroids or HGH may or may not still be there, and it not being there is evidence of nothing. To me it's as though these needles don't exist as there will be too much doubt in my mind either way.

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

He told McNamee to tell the truth. He obviously wasnt talking about which weights he used. Common sense tells you he didnt have to say steroids.

What other evidence does he have besides his career?

His stats are suspicious? He had quality seasons besides the ones he was suppose to be using steroids after 1997. What about when he was in Houston. Or did he have another trainer giving him steroids?

Even if they take them for to different things shouldnt taking steroids give you some of the same physical signs?

If I were being accused of steroid use, and I know that I never did them and wanted to tape a phone call with my accuser, I wouldn't just say "tell the truth" to him. I would state emphatically to the accuser "Tell the truth, which is that I have never used steroids."

I didn't say his stats are suspicious. I said at what point would they be suspicious to you? He already has the best stats of his generation. Would he have to go 25-4 with a 1.50 ERA every year before you became suspicious?

As far as physical signs, take Ryan Franklin as an example. He's tall and really skinny. You would never accuse of him of steroid use if you saw him. But he was using. You can't just take outward appearance as total proof, at least for pitchers.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

If I were being accused of steroid use, and I know that I never did them and wanted to tape a phone call with my accuser, I wouldn't just say "tell the truth" to him. I would state emphatically to the accuser "Tell the truth, which is that I have never used steroids."

I didn't say his stats are suspicious. I said at what point would they be suspicious to you? He already has the best stats of his generation. Would he have to go 25-4 with a 1.50 ERA every year before you became suspicious?

As far as physical signs, take Ryan Franklin as an example. He's tall and really skinny. You would never accuse of him of steroid use if you saw him. But he was using. You can't just take outward appearance as total proof, at least for pitchers.

Then it would be said that Clemens told him to say he didnt use steroids. Not that he is saying it because its true.

So i should be suspicious if a player over 35 has a good season? Yes he has the best stats of his generation. But take away the years that he was suppose to be doing steroids he is still the best pitcher of his generation.
His stats were just as good in Houston if you take in the fact he didnt start to pitch till like June. Hes been known for his training all his career. So why should i be suspicious?
I dont really beleive the physical signs prove anything but that if it works for hitters then shouldnt pitchers should show some kind of sign even if its small?

When would they release the results of tests on the evidence? Would we know before any trial? I think McNamee must be reaching because theres only to ways this could come out. Either it shows it wasnt used on Clemens or it does in which it will be said its tampered with. If i wanted to make sure another guy took the fall with me i think i would keep some copies of checks and prescriptions or something like that not syringes from 7 years ago.
But why would he think i have to save these syringes cause Clemens might denie it. Why did he beleive Clemens would be accused back in 2001. Oh wait thats right hes the one that is accusing him. Why not other players he may have given steroids too? Why only a player who most likely has a lot more money than most players.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

?
I think McNamee must be reaching because theres only to ways this could come out. Either it shows it wasnt used on Clemens or it does in which it will be said its tampered with. If i wanted to make sure another guy took the fall with me i think i would keep some copies of checks and prescriptions or something like that not syringes from 7 years ago.
But why would he think i have to save these syringes cause Clemens might denie it. Why did he beleive Clemens would be accused back in 2001. Oh wait thats right hes the one that is accusing him. Why not other players he may have given steroids too? Why only a player who most likely has a lot more money than most players.

Questions will be asked about these syringes, and there is no need for you to set up motivations and stories for McNamee. A lot of questions you asked aren't even valid. You don't know if he kept things of other players to.

These syringes are setting McNamee up to be imprisoned if they are fake or tampered, while nobody could really consider them as strong evidences.


As for all your book deal speculations. If that was the case, why haven't McNamee done that much earlier? For example, he could have started making money on that supposedly book a couple of years ago, when Canseco was making money on a steroids book.

These are all wild speculations, and you have to realize in the end McNamee is not really anyone. He's not exactly powerful and rich like Clemens. If we got the fact about McNamee wrong, the damage to him would destroy his life, as opposed to Clemens simply have to hide in his huge mansions.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Questions will be asked about these syringes, and there is no need for you to set up motivations and stories for McNamee. A lot of questions you asked aren't even valid. You don't know if he kept things of other players to.

These syringes are setting McNamee up to be imprisoned if they are fake or tampered, while nobody could really consider them as strong evidences.


As for all your book deal speculations. If that was the case, why haven't McNamee done that much earlier? For example, he could have started making money on that supposedly book a couple of years ago, when Canseco was making money on a steroids book.

These are all wild speculations, and you have to realize in the end McNamee is not really anyone. He's not exactly powerful and rich like Clemens. If we got the fact about McNamee wrong, the damage to him would destroy his life, as opposed to Clemens simply have to hide in his huge mansions.

If the syringes are to be used as evidence then why shouldnt i question the motivation. Are people not doing the same when they accept that Clemens did steroids because he was an aging pitcher?

Most people do not write a book before things happen. Yeah he could have accused Clemens before the Mitchell investigation so why didnt he? If he was keeping syringes he obviously thought he might need them as evidence.
Only when he was that he was in the spotlight he offers his truth.

Why should it matter if it would not hurt Clemens as much? The truth is the truth no matter who it hurts or doesnt hurt. Are we suppose to not be suspicious of someones motivation because it might hurt them if we are?
But its ok to be suspicious of someone because they have money?

Why would Clemens go through what is gonna cost him probably a lot of money if he was guilty? Why not just keep your mouth shut until the MLB does something. Theres no guarantee he wouldnt make the HOF even if he did admit using steroids a few years. So why would Clemens go through all this if he wasnt innocent?

I know Clemens may be a jerk and thats probably why a lot of people want to see him caught or beleived that he did do it. But McNamee is very questionable witness. I dont doubt he did the steroids but the guy has lied to police, he lied and said he didnt do steroids. Now he says he did.
So which is the truth with this guy?

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

If the syringes are to be used as evidence then why shouldnt i question the motivation. Are people not doing the same when they accept that Clemens did steroids because he was an aging pitcher?

Most people do not write a book before things happen. Yeah he could have accused Clemens before the Mitchell investigation so why didnt he? If he was keeping syringes he obviously thought he might need them as evidence.
Only when he was that he was in the spotlight he offers his truth.

Why should it matter if it would not hurt Clemens as much? The truth is the truth no matter who it hurts or doesnt hurt. Are we suppose to not be suspicious of someones motivation because it might hurt them if we are?
But its ok to be suspicious of someone because they have money?

Why would Clemens go through what is gonna cost him probably a lot of money if he was guilty? Why not just keep your mouth shut until the MLB does something. Theres no guarantee he wouldnt make the HOF even if he did admit using steroids a few years. So why would Clemens go through all this if he wasnt innocent?

I know Clemens may be a jerk and thats probably why a lot of people want to see him caught or beleived that he did do it. But McNamee is very questionable witness. I dont doubt he did the steroids but the guy has lied to police, he lied and said he didnt do steroids. Now he says he did.
So which is the truth with this guy?

Why are you only thinking from Clemens' side? This is not like the Bonds situation, where it's general interest against Bonds.

Here we are in a situation with one person against another person. You are offering tons of reasons to doubt McNamee, without bothering to considering the alternative explanations that would favor McNamee, or casting any doubt toward Clemens. There are tons of ways to reasonably explain McNamee's actions so far, but I don't see the need to speculate, since the hearing is coming up.

McNamee is simply a worthless human being to you, while Clemens is someone you have to defend over McNamee?