Roger Clemens=the white Barry Bonds

[Elendil]

So saith Dan Wetzel.

[BaseballMan]

So because a former trainer who may or may not have a problem with Clemens says so its a fact? Oh Lordy i sure hope the report has a lot better evidence
than these so called eye witnesses. Where are a lot of these witnesses working now? I wouldnt be surprised if some of these trainers write a book for money when they probably deserve just as much blame if not more. I could beleive Clemens took steroids but he said she said isnt good enough evidence for me.

[mikev]

Clemens is neither an outfielder nor left handed. I don't see the similarity.

[The Wolf]

"Clemens, Bonds, Tejada named in Mitchell Report"

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-mitchellreport

[Elendil]

Quick snippet from the report:

"According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens’s performance showed remarkable improvement. During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the steroids “had a pretty good effect” on him. McNamee said that Clemens also was training harder and dieting better during this time.

"In 1999, Clemens was traded to the New York Yankees. McNamee remained under contract with the Blue Jays for the 1999 season. In 2000, the Yankees hired McNamee as the assistant strength and conditioning coach under Jeff Mangold. According to McNamee, the Yankees hired him because Clemens persuaded them to do so. In this capacity, McNamee worked with all of the Yankees players. McNamee was paid both by the Yankees and by Clemens personally. Clemens hired McNamee to train him during portions of several weeks in the off-season. McNamee also trained Clemens personally for one to two weeks during spring training and a few times during the season. McNamee served as the Yankees’ assistant strength and conditioning coach through the 2001 season.388"

This would help explain why so many Yankees were doping during that period.

[The Wolf]

Yes, sadly it would. Say it ain't so, Roger!

[CommishJoe]

I like the fact that they hired this joker AFTER their run of WS wins was over. No wonder why they haven't won anything since

[Skipaway]

What Clemens shouldn't have done was to fire McNamee this May! That could have stopped McNamee from talking.

[Autism Speaks]

They're both cheats.

[Prodigal Son]

Originally Posted by Autism Speaks

They're both cheats.

"

If by "white Barry Bonds," you mean a well-known athlete who took steroids, then sure.

If you mean an annoying, attention-whore baseball player with his name etched all over the record books, then...ok yeah, then that's ok too.

I guess it's a pretty good comparison, but it only takes you so far. There are quite a few differences too.

[BaseballMan]

"Clemens’s performance showed remarkable improvement."
When i look at Clemens career i dont see that he was much better at all.
Oh wait if you have a few bad years then your on the decline and it can only be steroids that could keep him pitching after age 33 even though Nolan Ryan was pitching till he was like 47.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son

I guess it's a pretty good comparison, but it only takes you so far. There are quite a few differences too.

Clemens would have to work at it really, really hard to be as disliked as Bonds is.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

"Clemens’s performance showed remarkable improvement."
When i look at Clemens career i dont see that he was much better at all.
Oh wait if you have a few bad years then your on the decline and it can only be steroids that could keep him pitching after age 33 even though Nolan Ryan was pitching till he was like 47.

That's not entirely true.

Clemens hooked up with McNamee right after Dan Duquette famously said Clemens was at the "twilight of his career" in 1997, and he happened to have one of his best year in 1997. People used to think Duquette a fool for what he said, but maybe what he said was true.

It's just like Barry Bonds, where you can claim that Barry Bonds didn't get significantly better at any specific point of his career too.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Clemens would have to work at it really, really hard to be as disliked as Bonds is.

I would believe if Clemens was proven to be a steroids user before Bonds, Bonds won't be disliked as much as he is today though.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

I would believe if Clemens was proven to be a steroids user before Bonds, Bonds won't be disliked as much as he is today though.

Maybe. It always struck me that most of the reason that Bonds was so disliked had to do with his personality.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Maybe. It always struck me that most of the reason that Bonds was so disliked had to do with his personality.

Yeah, of course. The steroids thing amplified it though.

I would also like to believe that if the first major accusations of steroids usage didn't involve the unpopular Bonds, the issue wouldn't have been as heated.

For example, if the first major steroids user to come out was someone with the popularity similar to Ripken or Jeter, and that player can handle a masterful teary campaign to apologize, people wouldn't have had such a negative feeling about steroids usage.


Steroid issues amplified the hatred toward Bonds, and Bonds amplified the hatred toward steroid issues.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Yeah, of course. The steroids thing amplified it though.

I would also like to believe that if the first major accusations of steroids usage didn't involve the unpopular Bonds, the issue wouldn't have been as heated.

For example, if the first major steroids user to come out was someone with the popularity similar to Ripken or Jeter, and that player can handle a masterful teary campaign to apologize, people wouldn't have had such a negative feeling about steroids usage.


Steroid issues amplified the hatred toward Bonds, and Bonds amplified the hatred toward steroid issues.

But, um, the first major steroids accusation was McGwire, not Bonds.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by mikev

But, um, the first major steroids accusation was McGwire, not Bonds.

Major is probably the wrong word there. People were discounting Bonds 2001 season by mid-May. McGwire had the benefit of the doubt until 2003 or so.

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

It's just like Barry Bonds, where you can claim that Barry Bonds didn't get significantly better at any specific point of his career too.

Sure, you can claim anything you want. But to claim Bonds showed no marked improvement is just ignoring the facts.

Barry Bonds 1986-2000: 2 seasons with an OPS+ over 200 (205 in '92, 204 in '93); 3 seasons over 175 OPS+; 9 seasons with an OPS+ under 175

Barry Bonds 2001-2004 OPS-pluses: 259, 268, 231, 263

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by mikev

But, um, the first major steroids accusation was McGwire, not Bonds.

1. McGwire wasn't really the first major steroid accusation. There were suspicions, and there were the issue about andro. It's not the same as BALCO and Bonds.

2. If you considered that a major steroids accusation, then I think it'd be obvious to you the issue wasn't half as big as Bonds and BALCO, therefore still proving the idea of Bonds making the issue big.