HOF: Veterans ballot

[sixto]

There's two questions here: who would you pick, and who do you think the committee will pick? Sadly, historically they are 2 completely different questions.

The veterans committee ballot - players

Players: Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Ken Boyer, Rocky Colavito, Wes Ferrell, Curt Flood, Joe Gordon, Gil Hodges, Elston Howard, Ted Kluszewski, Mickey Lolich, Marty Marion, Roger Maris, Mike Marshall, Carl Mays, Bob Meusel, Minnie Minoso, Thurman Munson, Don Newcombe, Tony Oliva, Vada Pinson, Allie Reynolds, Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Ken Williams, Maury Wills.

Some of my thoughts:
Rocky Colavito - what an awesome stretch he had, but like Boyer, and Mays, and many others, he couldn't sustain it.

Wes Ferrell - "greatest hitting pitcher" was very good for 8 years. Eight is enough?

Joe Gordon - a 9-time all-star in an 11-season career. He was a very very good player, but not for long enough. His career stats scream "Jeff Kent." Would you vote Jeff Kent into the HOF, today?

Marty Marion - a nod to defense is nice, but, no way.

Bob Meusel - you see a pattern here if you look at every player's stats: a lot of 11-, 12-, 13-year careers where the players either had exceptional peaks or a brilliant but short career.

Minnie Minoso, Don Newcombe, Thurman Munson - when Amos Otis and Dennis Leonard and Terry Steinbach are among your strongest career matches, you know there's something special about you as a person if they're talking about you for the HOF. Newcombe doesn't have the color line argument as he debuted at 23. Dave Stewart has a better claim. Newcombe benefits as many have from the national fascination with the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Tony Oliva - lotta black and gray ink for the 3-time batting champ. Another guy with an 8-year superpeak. Oliva really petered out but hung on longer than some of these other candidates.

Allie Reynolds - you start to feel, when you look at Reynolds and the pitchers who are like him, that 200 wins should be considered a minimum for consideration in the HOF. I'm not saying that should be an instituted rule, but there are literally dozens of guys like Reynolds who could all go in. His winning % matched the Yankees during his years there - .630. You think the Yanks are a dynasty now?

Ron Santo, Joe Torre - I don't know. I have a spreadsheet somewhere of 15 very good 3B who are not in the HOF, and Santo (and Boyer) are just 2 of many. But when you add up all the numbers, for me, Santo and Torre are the best eligible players not in the HOF or on the BBWAA ballot. Dick Allen's numbers are also certainly pretty eye-popping, but I just don't know about him.

Who's in for me: Santo, Torre
Who I think they'll vote in: Santo

I'm skipping the execs and managers, but I think Billy Martin will get voted in and I'll put in a darkhorse vote for Marvin Miller. Walter O'Malley also is very worthy.

[LivnLegend]

Funny, 6, you barely beat me to posting this
I had this typed up an ready to post to compliment my previous HOF writer's ballot thread!

The complete veterans committee ballot:

Players: Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Ken Boyer, Rocky
Colavito, Wes Ferrell, Curt Flood, Joe Gordon, Gil
Hodges, Elston Howard, Ted Kluszewski, Mickey Lolich,
Marty Marion, Roger Maris, Mike Marshall, Carl Mays,
Bob Meusel, Minnie Minoso, Thurman Munson, Don
Newcombe, Tony Oliva, Vada Pinson, Allie Reynolds, Ron
Santo, Joe Torre, Ken Williams, Maury Wills.

Managers, umpires and executives: Buzzie Bavasi,
August Busch Jr., Harry Dalton, Charles O. Finley,
Doug Harvey, Whitey Herzog, Bowie Kuhn, Walter
O'Malley, Billy Martin, Marvin Miller, Gabe Paul, Paul
Richards, Bill White, Dick Williams, Phil Wrigley.


Sixto left off Maury Wills from his comments...of all the players on there, in my opinion Wills is the most deserving. He's kind of a homer pick for me but I think a solid argument could be made. Wills won an MVP, World Series rings, Gold Gloves, was a 7-time All Star, and of course had the stolen base record at the time of his retirement. Wills' lifetime average is higher than Rizzuto, Reese, Aparicio, and Ozzie (although I know the latter gets deserved defensive consideration).

In addition, there is no question that Maury Wills had a singular impact on the National League's style of play. He brought back the stolen base, and in his day, Wills was considered a superstar.

[LivnLegend]

Originally posted by sixto
Bob Meusel - you see a pattern here if you look at every player's stats: a lot of 11-, 12-, 13-year careers where the players either had exceptional peaks or a brilliant but short career.

Here's another pattern I see: Ex-Yankees!!
Maris, Munson, Howard, Meusel, Allie Reynolds, Joe Gordon, Carl Mays, Billy Martin, Gabe Paul...even Bonds and Colavito were Yankees briefly.

Originally posted by sixto
Newcombe benefits as many have from the national fascination with the Brooklyn Dodgers.

I am the ultimate Dodger homer. Although I feel very strong cases can and should be made for Hodges and Wills (and Garvey! ), I have never been under the notion that Newcombe should be enshrined. Newc was a very fine pitcher for 7 years but was basically done after the age of 31. He's almost the same as Denny McClain...they each had one year where they led the world in wins, won the Cy Young/MVP that year and McClain was also done by age 30.

Originally posted by sixto
Dick Allen's numbers are also certainly pretty eye-popping, but I just don't know about him.

My feeling is that Dick will be inducted someday. I don't think he should be but I think he will.

[sixto]

Ya, love the HOF talk.

I also noticed the preponderance of ex-Yankees. What, no Oscar Gamble? No Fred Chicken Stanley?

Wills is certainly a very interesting case. If you can promise me that Tim Raines will get in, I'll consider him.

[CBL-Commish]

Minnie Minoso and Ron Santo are the only players from that list I'd put in. Minoso was incredibly impressive from his debut at age 28 on. He was kept out of the leauge because of the color barrier for probably 6 or 7 productive seasons. He still managed almost 2000 hits, 1000 runs, 1000 RBI, 200 steals. He was in the top ten in BA, SLG, OBA, R, H, TB, 2B, 3B, RBI, BB, etc, many, many times. In the New Historical Abstract Bill James makes a compelling case that Minoso was one of the top centerfielders of all time, and lists all time leaders from age 28 on; Minoso is featured prominently on many.

Santo hit for power, walked, and hit for decent averages despite playing in Dead Ball Era II - the 1960s. He was a great defensive player, too.

I'll also put in my favorite "who the heck is that" nominee, who apparently is out of luck as far as the Hall goes, for good, since the recent rule changes: Harry Stovey. A OF/1B in the early years of the game. Look at his numbers on baseball-reference.com (Click Here ). Especially concentrate on the 'Among League Leaders" section. He lead his league in slugging three times, runs four times, total bases three times, doubles once, triples four times, homers five times, RBI once, stolen bases twice, and extra base hits five times. 90% of current HOFers can't match Stovey in leading the league in various things.

[GForce22]

Oliva and Santo should get in. If Thurman Munson gets in I'll throw up.

I wish I had the Bill James abstract with me...he discusses the myth that Maury Wills brought back the stolen base. I don't remember all of the points though.

Ken Williams is a guy I've learned about doing my all-time project. Excellent peak, but probably not long enough.

GH

[CBL-Commish]

Originally posted by GForce22
Ken Williams is a guy I've learned about doing my all-time project. Excellent peak, but probably not long enough.

Ken Williams problem is that his home/road splits were very Bichette-like. His great 1927 season was something like .422-25-100 at home, .300-14-50 on the road (I don't have the exact numbers, but they're in the Historical Abstract). Plus 1922 and 1925 are the only years he ever lead the league in anything - his numbers look good on the surface but they need to be put into 1920s context. That, along with his short career doom him as a HOFer in my mind.

[GForce22]

I had forgotten the home/road argument. I just know his ratings for the all-time project when I first entered them through my spreadsheets were really good and I didn't really know who he was.

GH

[ChiefIlliniwek]

I'm just a biased Cubs fan and I'm too young to have seen Ron Santo play, but everything I have heard leads me to believe that he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Hopefully this will be the year!

[OldGiants]

A few quick comments on the 'short career' players:

Joe Gordon fought in WWII during what would have been his best seasons.

Don Newcombe got drafted for two years just as his career was about to commence. He was quite bitter about that, too. His career slide was made worse by drinking problems.

Oiva had injury problems that ended his career early.

Munson, of course, died in mid-career.

On the Santo-Boyer arguements, when they both played as regulars, the opinion of those watching the game at the time was that Ken Boyer was the better player. Boyer was usually the all-star in the early 1960's. When Santo was having his best stretch, the late 1960's, tony Perez and Richie (not yet Dick) Allen were the two top third basemen in the NL. I don't think Santo deserves the HOF, and neither does Joe Torre unless his manager achievements are added in. then he likely does. If your going to go for a third baseman, its got to be Richie Allen, even if he played a lot of 1B late in his career. Powerful hitter, far more dangerous than Santo or Boyer.

Coming from a team that won nothing and already has Banks and Williams in the HOF, I think Santo would be a terrible pick and is in no way deserving. There's a Mendoza line for batting average and there should be a Santo line for the HOF: You need to be better than he was to get in.

IMO, Vada Pinson is one of the most under-appreciated players of his time. Great CFer, Fast on the bases, power and average. He was great for the Reds. I always hoped the Yankees would trade for him, but they never did. No way will he get in though.

Bob Meusel--after facing Ruth and Gehrig, what pitcher wouldn't let down a little?

Joe Gordon and Mickey Lolich would get my votes. Lolich carried the Tigers in the '68 WS and for years after that. People did consider him the best LH pitcher for a short spell, and no one ever consiered Santo the best third baseman in baseball at any point in his career. There was always someone better.

[holyroller]

So I guess the fact that Santo played gold glove level defense while hitting .277/.362/.464 at a tough position to fill means nothing eh? Santo wasn't a short peak player either, he hit at least 20 homers from 1963 to 1970. This was, of course, during the best pitching era the game has ever seen. As for your arguments that his contemporaries didn't think much of him, he finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 4 times and won 5 gold gloves. Per your all-star comments, you must be remembering incorrectly, Santo made it in '63,'64,'65,'66,'68,'69,'71,'72, and '73. You are correct about Boyer making it in the early 60's as he made it between '59 and '64 before his decline. I don't think it is a case of people viewing Boyer as the better player so much as a passing of the torch. Boyer's peak was ending right as Santo's was beginning. Honestly, I would vote in both of them, but no is going to ask me

[Rasmuth]

I still can't believe Gil Hodges is not in the HOF yet...its a travesty! He was a very good slugger when 379 homers still meant something and he was the manager of the 1969 Miracle Mets. He achieved in a top manner at two levels of the game. It blows me away he's not in.

[darkhorse]

Originally posted by Rasmuth
I still can't believe Gil Hodges is not in the HOF yet...its a travesty! He was a very good slugger when 379 homers still meant something and he was the manager of the 1969 Miracle Mets. He achieved in a top manner at two levels of the game. It blows me away he's not in.

Yes, but Gil was on an episode of "The Beverly Hillbillies" so it all balances out.

[Jason Moyer]

If I could fill out a ballot with 2 players from that list, I'd take Santo and Minoso. If I had to pick 4, I'd put Santo and Minoso down twice.

Jason

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by Rasmuth
I still can't believe Gil Hodges is not in the HOF yet...its a travesty! He was a very good slugger when 379 homers still meant something

Maybe 370 homeruns was impressive when he was a manager., but I'm not sure if I'd make that claim in reference to the 1950's. He was a great player, don't get me wrong there, I just think there are better arguments to be made for him than hitting 370 homeruns in a career that peaked in a big-hitting era.

Jason

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by LivnLegend
Sixto left off Maury Wills from his comments...of all the Wills' lifetime average is higher than Rizzuto, Reese, Aparicio, and Ozzie.

That's an interesting argument, really.

AVG:

.281 Wills
.273 Rizzuto
.269 Reese
.262 Aparicio
.262 Smith

Wow. Wills is clearly the best hitter of the bunch. Good thing since he'd be getting elected almost entirely on the basis of his offensive ability, specifically his leadoff ability.

OBP:

.366 Reese
.351 Rizzuto
.337 Smith
.330 Wills
.311 Aparicio

Woops, sorry Maury. If we're going to start electing fast .330 OBP leadoff hitting shortstops with slightly above average defense into the HOF, Jimmy Rollins should be a lock in 15 years. He just needs to get someone hitting second who won't mind taking until they get to 2 strikes every at bat so he can take a crack at 100 steals.

Jason

[LivnLegend]

Jason, you set me up! Put me right on the tee and took a whack with your driver.

OK, first of all, Wills was not just a one dimensional player. Wills was generally regarded as the top all around SS during his prime. As a fielder Wills was top notch; he had a n accurate, strong arm (remember, he was originally a minor league pitcher) which complimented his speed and quickness in the field. Wills won two Gold Gloves early in his career; before he could be accused of winning the GG award more for his bat or "reputation" as we have seen with some well-known players.

In the early 1980's there were very few shortstops in the Hall. Many well-respected sports writers (Hall of fame writer Jim Murray & Pulitzer winning Dave Anderson are two examples) generally agreed the Hall would do well to add Luis Aparicio, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, and Maury Wills. I'm not sure why the first three were added but Wills was not. He stands right with all of them in most, if not all, respects (okay, Aparicio's fielding prowess aside).

Also, Jason, I think you are a big fan of Bill James if I remember correctly. I know someone else earlier tried to say James is on record discrediting Wills but here's a quote:

"While active, I think it was generally assumed that Wills was a Hall of Fame-caliber player. . . . He was a smart player, and, as a Gold Glove winner, .300 hitter and base-stealing champion on an outstanding team, a player with too many positives to be lightly dismissed." Bill James, Historical Baseball Abstract, 1985, p. 372

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by LivnLegend
Wills was generally regarded as the top all around SS during his prime.

You're totally correct. I dunno if I'd put him in the hall of fame. really, but I don't think he would be a disgrace to the hall either. To me, Santo and Minoso were first-ballot no-brainer HOFers, whereas Wills or Hodges would be one of those guys who I might sneak in there in a weak year. His career OPS is horrible, but if you adjust for Dodger stadium and playing his prime years in the 60's it's comparable to Ozzie Smith's (who did a bit more with the bat than he's generally credited for). If he had just walked 100 times per year I'd put him in tommorrow.

Jason

[OldGiants]

Originally posted by holyroller
So I guess the fact that Santo played gold glove level defense while hitting .277/.362/.464 at a tough position to fill means nothing eh? . Boyer's peak was ending right as Santo's was beginning. Honestly, I would vote in both of them, but no is going to ask me

Since when is 3B 'tough to fill?' That's where aging vets like Joe Torre went to finish their careers

Santo was a very good player, but not HOF quality. Santo may have made the all-star team, but he wasn't the starter, even playing behind the immortal Deron Johnson in 1965. Plus, Santo rarely had the pressure of a pennant race on him. The one time he did, in 1969, he was a choking dog down the stretch as the Mets charged past the Cubs.

I do think winning is the final yardstick for admission. And Santo didn't win. Boyer was key to the Cards winnning in 1964, and rates higher IMO.

Actually, as thought about it some, I would be perfectly happy with none of these players being added. They all had their chances and didn't make it, and by rather large margins. No one had the Nellie Fox 74%, did they?

As some one mentioned about Brooklyn, there's a certain nostalgia factor for the lovable, losing Cubs. Plus, Santo gets more sympathy points because he was a diabetic in an era where insulin injections controlled the disease. I've read and heard players talking about him going into insulin shock during games and still walking out there. Courageous and admirable stuff, but I still think Santo is one notch below HOF. Somebody has to be there, and he's it.

[sixto]

Originally posted by OldGiants
Somebody has to be there, and he's it.

I'll grant you that I have no firsthand recollections of Santo. Just stats and the record, and the firsthand accounts of others. They're sufficient for me, and, I believe that you'll see that the weight of years of hearing about Santo's worthiness will tip him into the Hall this year.

As for Pinson, he, to me, epitomizes exactly that "good enough not to get in" contingent.

I will say that I'm reconsidering my stance on Torre. But also that I think you can see the pro-OBP/no-OBP split on the board forming right here in this thread.

As for none of them getting in, well, obviously the Veterans Committee was formed to get in players who weren't good enough to get in the first time. So what you're really in favor of is shutting down the Veterans Committee altogether. Which throughout history has been an idea with a lot of merit, but I think there's good that yet can be done by it.