Who's More Pathetic? Lions or Raiders

[Carplos]

On the field: Lions
In the front office: Tie.
Fans: Raiders have the most pathetic fans in the history of the universe.

[Slackker]

Originally Posted by bababui

Seymour could actually make the Raiders playoff contenders.

.. Not by himself. If Schilens, Hey-Bey, or one of the other wideouts step it up.. and they take the four games against the Broncos and Chiefs.. possibly. Still, it would have to be one of those years where a 8-8 or 9-7 team makes the postseason from the AFC (as a wild card), and that has only happened twice in the last decade.

They have a good young QB;

Talented? Sure. Good? Nah, lets see him top 2500 yards, or even 55% completions first. Either you throw long or you throw accurately. Good QBs can do that. Great ones do both. Russell has done neither. Or he could just fumble less than a dozen times this year.

Honestly, until I see a second full season.. I can't say if he's progressing or not. But they sure haven't helped him out with good receivers.

a stud RB

McFadden? Again, talented.. lets see him produce for a full season.

the best bump and run CB in the league.

Aso is one of the best overall corners in the league, even. This one most people can accept. Still, he has lapses that last a full game (Week 1 last year?) which can kill a winning streak.

If Seymour can actually help the run defense they could be good.

This is assuming Seymour even puts on a Raiders uniform. Something they should have expected, given that everyone knew Seymour wanted a new contract, wanted to be a Patriot his whole career. Take away the Patriot portion and.. you have a holdout. Oh, and by the way..

Richard Seymour-DL- Raiders Sep. 10 - 7:25 pm et

The Raiders have reportedly sent a "five-day" letter to Richard Seymour, informing him that he's a candidate for the roster/suspended list.
The five-day letter means Oakland will not attempt to void the trade, so Seymour will either join the Raiders or sit out the season. The Raiders aren't obligated to place Seymour on the roster/suspended list, but the letter warns of the possibility. The ball is now in Seymour's court.
Source: Bay Area Comcast Sports Net

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by marioh

At least the Raiders have made it to the SB.
And haven't gone a full season without a win.

Nicely put.

Originally Posted by spleen1015

People are calling the ownership and coaching pathetic more than they are the players. Management of that team is a circus.

There is that. If the Lions can pull off a SB win and the Raiders can continue their suckatude (and pull off a 0-16), then they deserve the title.

[Left-handed Badger]

Until they win a game, the Lions. Might think differently afterwards.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by The Professor

Where have you gone Brian Sipe? Bernie Kosar, a tired Browns Nation turns its eyes back to you. The Pruitts Two, Mack would do, oh for the Kardiac Kids we knew! (And a tear for that "Red Right 88" they threw.) Ozzie, Logan, Rucker, Slaughter, and Brennan. Thom, Lyle, Frank Min, Hanford, and Clay (a pox on the Broncos and John Elway.)

They went to Baltimore.


Oops, still soon isnt it?

For the record I did like the old Browns some. Not my favorite, but I did like them more than many teams. (that used to be the Oilers, and I count neither the Titans nor the Texans worthy, so I decided to pull for the Cardinals after the moves to TN, that finally paid dividends last year)

Note: I loved Kevin Mack on the old Tecmo Bowl, that dude was a complete monster.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by bababui

They went to Baltimore and won a Super Bowl.

I got beaten to the punch.....

....speaking of punch *dodges a haymaker from the Professor*

[marc]

Originally Posted by bababui

Lots of ignorance in this thread. Seymour could actually make the Raiders playoff contenders. They have a good young QB; a stud RB, the best bump and run CB in the league.

Oh the irony of following that initial statement up with calling Russell a good young QB. A good young OT maybe but definitely hasn't shown anything to this point that would put him and good in the same sentence.

I'm a big McFadden guy but a "stud" RB is definitely a projection. Not a single running back on the roster is a real proven commodity.

Renting Seymour for a year does nothing to improve the Raiders standing either now or in the future, which is what a team with a lot of holes and coming off a 5 win season should be concerning themselves with.

I'd be flat out stunned if the Raiders made the playoffs and the only reason it's not completely impossible is because of the dog crap division they are playing in.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Slackker

.. Not by himself. If Schilens, Hey-Bey, or one of the other wideouts step it up.. and they take the four games against the Broncos and Chiefs.. possibly. Still, it would have to be one of those years where a 8-8 or 9-7 team makes the postseason from the AFC (as a wild card), and that has only happened twice in the last decade.



Talented? Sure. Good? Nah, lets see him top 2500 yards, or even 55% completions first. Either you throw long or you throw accurately. Good QBs can do that. Great ones do both. Russell has done neither. Or he could just fumble less than a dozen times this year.

Honestly, until I see a second full season.. I can't say if he's progressing or not. But they sure haven't helped him out with good receivers.



McFadden? Again, talented.. lets see him produce for a full season.



Aso is one of the best overall corners in the league, even. This one most people can accept. Still, he has lapses that last a full game (Week 1 last year?) which can kill a winning streak.



This is assuming Seymour even puts on a Raiders uniform. Something they should have expected, given that everyone knew Seymour wanted a new contract, wanted to be a Patriot his whole career. Take away the Patriot portion and.. you have a holdout. Oh, and by the way..

I agree that even with Seymour the raiders still have a lot of work to do.
I think their chance of a playoff berth would depend on how good SD is. If they can beat or even play SD close they may have a shot at the division but i dont see them getting the WC.

As for Russell he has been improving. Problem was that last year he had no target except for Miller. Plus it doesnt help when Kwami Harris would get a penalty every time in the red zone. Russell still fumbles a bit but doesnt throw that many int. This should be the year we will know if he is actually making progress or turning into a Ryan Leaf. Chaz & Miller should be dependable targets. Bey should stretch the defense and open it up for McFadden. But i would keep an eye on Louis Murphy. I would like to see Russell get between 2700-3000. Much more and hes probably doing too much and the raiders are not using the strength of their running game and its mostly passing yds from trying to play catch up.

As for Asmo in the 1st game last year. Your mistaken. That was D. Hall. Asmo never really had a bad game last year.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by marc

I'm a big McFadden guy but a "stud" RB is definitely a projection. Not a single running back on the roster is a real proven commodity.

Yes but its a pretty safe projection. He had an injury last year and im glad they didnt rush him back. He looks perfectly healthy in pre-season. If he did not have the injury last year he was well on his way to probably at least 1200 yds rushing not to mention his receiving abilities. So it wasnt like he wasnt a stud when he was playing. If he had the injury at the end of the year there would be no doubt that hes a stud. But injuries happen and he looks to be ok now. McFadden had 499 on only 113 carrys and Bush had 421 on 95. If Cable is smart enough to put Fargas has the 3rd back, McFadden & Bush will be a monster tandem. But it wouldnt surprise me if they start Fargas. I likes the guys heart but the raiders need more than i just wanna get some positive yrds.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Yes but its a pretty safe projection. He had an injury last year and im glad they didnt rush him back. He looks perfectly healthy in pre-season. If he did not have the injury last year he was well on his way to probably at least 1200 yds rushing not to mention his receiving abilities. So it wasnt like he wasnt a stud when he was playing. If he had the injury at the end of the year there would be no doubt that hes a stud. But injuries happen and he looks to be ok now. McFadden had 499 on only 113 carrys and Bush had 421 on 95. If Cable is smart enough to put Fargas has the 3rd back, McFadden & Bush will be a monster tandem. But it wouldnt surprise me if they start Fargas. I likes the guys heart but the raiders need more than i just wanna get some positive yrds.

FYI McFadden was named the starter today! So that shoiuld make you happy

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

FYI McFadden was named the starter today! So that shoiuld make you happy

Hell yeah that makes me happy! The raiders site had Fargas has the starter when i last checked. Fargas is ok for a 3rd down or to give somebody a breather but he should not be a starter. Finally something positive. I know the raiders are still lousy but it helps to hear something positive once in a while.
Thanks.

[Slackker]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

As for Asmo in the 1st game last year. Your mistaken. That was D. Hall. Asmo never really had a bad game last year.

Hall's were worse, but both of them got burned a few times.

Moss & Cassell tore up Nnamdi as well, in December. Three holding penalties and two TD's allowed. Although perhaps only one of them was against Nnamdi, I'm not positive on that one.

Don't get me wrong, as a Broncos fan I know how often Bailey certainly gets burned now and then too. It's part of the game.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Slackker

Hall's were worse, but both of them got burned a few times.

Moss & Cassell tore up Nnamdi as well, in December. Three holding penalties and two TD's allowed. Although perhaps only one of them was against Nnamdi, I'm not positive on that one.

Don't get me wrong, as a Broncos fan I know how often Bailey certainly gets burned now and then too. It's part of the game.

Wrong. Aso did not get burned in the denver game. Denver would hardly ever even threw to his side. As for the NE game, I only saw one penalty on Aso and Moss did not tear up Aso. Go look at the highlights and see who was covering Moss on the tds. It wasnt Aso.

From Wikipedia
"Opposing quarterbacks tested Asomugha only 27 times with 8 completions allowed the entire season. Only perennial all-pros Randy Moss (3 receptions, 40 yards) and Tony Gonzalez (2 receptions, 34 yards) would catch more than one ball on him during the year."

I am sure Aso has got burned for a 20 yrd gain but i have yet to see him have a bad game like Bailey did in the snow against Porter. Though im sure he will have 1 before his career is over but as for last year, nah your simply wrong about that.

[Le Grande Orange]

The Lions will hold the record for all-time patheticness if they go winless in their first 10 games. If they do that, they'll have lost 27 consecutive regular season games, breaking Tampa Bay's record of 26 consecutive games of futility.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The Lions will hold the record for all-time patheticness if they go winless in their first 10 games. If they do that, they'll have lost 27 consecutive regular season games, breaking Tampa Bay's record of 26 consecutive games of futility.

Even if they dont get it to come close might make them worse than the Bucs.
At least in the buc's case they were an expansion team and i dont think they got an expansion draft like the Jags & Panthers.

[Slackker]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

From Wikipedia
"Opposing quarterbacks tested Asomugha only 27 times with 8 completions allowed the entire season. Only perennial all-pros Randy Moss (3 receptions, 40 yards) and Tony Gonzalez (2 receptions, 34 yards) would catch more than one ball on him during the year."

I'm not sure I see the point in these statistics? Teams don't pass at Asomugha for several reasons.

• He's a top corner.
• They're usually winning by a wide margin, and pass less frequently.
• The other side of the field featured Fabian Washington in 2007, and DeAngelo Hall (mostly) in 2008.

He wasn't thrown at much in 2007 either, but the YPA when throwing at him (7.0) was only good enough to place him 30th in the league. Last year, with the 29 times he was thrown at (which you mentioned incorrectly as 27) the YPA was only 4.97, a drastic improvement. Still, several players fared better. Corey Webster (66 attempts, 3.92), Richard Marshall (39, 4.51), Mike Jenkins (38, 4.34), Darrelle Revis (72, 4.96), Sheldon Brown (63, 4.84), Samari Rolle (44, 4.07) and Brandon Flowers (66, 4.83). Those players were all thrown at more frequently, of course, but this DOES provide a better sample size.

Oh, and keep in mind the "thrown at" categories can get a little sketchy when zones are involved. So, throw the attempts, YPA, and all that out the window.

Showing single categories, or lumped categories all displaying basically the same stat, can be used to show just about anything you want.

Heck, according to the most comprehensive 'stat' I've seen.. William Gay was the best corner in the league last year -- and Stanford Routt was #10!

I'd really like to see a nice, easy metric for corners that includes everything. Wishful thinking, I guess.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Slackker

I'm not sure I see the point in these statistics? Teams don't pass at Asomugha for several reasons.

• He's a top corner.
• They're usually winning by a wide margin, and pass less frequently.
• The other side of the field featured Fabian Washington in 2007, and DeAngelo Hall (mostly) in 2008.

He wasn't thrown at much in 2007 either, but the YPA when throwing at him (7.0) was only good enough to place him 30th in the league. Last year, with the 29 times he was thrown at (which you mentioned incorrectly as 27) the YPA was only 4.97, a drastic improvement. Still, several players fared better. Corey Webster (66 attempts, 3.92), Richard Marshall (39, 4.51), Mike Jenkins (38, 4.34), Darrelle Revis (72, 4.96), Sheldon Brown (63, 4.84), Samari Rolle (44, 4.07) and Brandon Flowers (66, 4.83). Those players were all thrown at more frequently, of course, but this DOES provide a better sample size.

Oh, and keep in mind the "thrown at" categories can get a little sketchy when zones are involved. So, throw the attempts, YPA, and all that out the window.

Showing single categories, or lumped categories all displaying basically the same stat, can be used to show just about anything you want.

Heck, according to the most comprehensive 'stat' I've seen.. William Gay was the best corner in the league last year -- and Stanford Routt was #10!

I'd really like to see a nice, easy metric for corners that includes everything. Wishful thinking, I guess.

Your reaching there.I dont know where you got the 29 from but i have also seen 25 listed. I just quoted the wikipedia article.
Routt was not a starter but i dont know about Gay.
When your a starter and the other teams refuses to pass to your side that says a lot. If it was just because nobody was passing to his side then im sure a coach would have taken a chance and he would be challenged. But they dont throw at him because they know he is the best. Bailey is good but i dont see coaches refusing to pass to his side. Even when he was in his prime. Aso held Steve Smith to the worst game of his career and other receivers didnt fare much better.
Another thing is that the raiders play mostly man-man.
You can argue if JRuss is a bust and you may or may not be right but to try and denie that Aso is the best db in the league right now is well laughable.

[Slackker]

[QUOTE=BaseballMan;2819500]Your reaching there.I dont know where you got the 29 from but i have also seen 25 listed. I just quoted the wikipedia article.
Routt was not a starter but i dont know about Gay.
When your a starter and the other teams refuses to pass to your side that says a lot. If it was just because nobody was passing to his side then im sure a coach would have taken a chance and he would be challenged. But they dont throw at him because they know he is the best.

Bailey is good but i dont see coaches refusing to pass to his side. Even when he was in his prime.

There were dozens of games where Bailey was hardly tested, in his prime and otherwise. Still, that stat is contibuted to by many other things. If you're a crappy team, and always down by three touchdowns (read: Oakland Raiders) why should teams even bother passing in the second half? Also, for teams with 2 or 3 good receivers.. why test CB1 with WR1 when you can just as easily test a significantly worse corner with a WR nearly as good?

Aso held Steve Smith to the worst game of his career and other receivers didnt fare much better.

Perhaps citing where Jake Delhomme decides to throw the ball isn't the best support to your argument. He chooses to throw it to opposing players frequently. =)

You can argue if JRuss is a bust and you may or may not be right but to try and denie that Aso is the best db in the league right now is well laughable.

I'm not saying Russell is a bust. It's too early to tell. He was mentioned as a good QB earlier in the thread - which is, as you would say, laughable.

Oh, and I've never thought Aso was the undisputed #1 corner in the league. Corey Webster provides a very good challenge - did you see Santana Moss today? Revis is also amazing. There has only been one corner I've ever been able to unquestionably call the best in the league, and he couldn't even tackle. Oh, and his name wasn't Roland.

[BaseballMan]

[QUOTE=Slackker;2819730]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Your reaching there.I dont know where you got the 29 from but i have also seen 25 listed. I just quoted the wikipedia article.
Routt was not a starter but i dont know about Gay.
When your a starter and the other teams refuses to pass to your side that says a lot. If it was just because nobody was passing to his side then im sure a coach would have taken a chance and he would be challenged. But they dont throw at him because they know he is the best.



There were dozens of games where Bailey was hardly tested, in his prime and otherwise. Still, that stat is contibuted to by many other things. If you're a crappy team, and always down by three touchdowns (read: Oakland Raiders) why should teams even bother passing in the second half? Also, for teams with 2 or 3 good receivers.. why test CB1 with WR1 when you can just as easily test a significantly worse corner with a WR nearly as good?




Perhaps citing where Jake Delhomme decides to throw the ball isn't the best support to your argument. He chooses to throw it to opposing players frequently. =)



I'm not saying Russell is a bust. It's too early to tell. He was mentioned as a good QB earlier in the thread - which is, as you would say, laughable.

Oh, and I've never thought Aso was the undisputed #1 corner in the league. Corey Webster provides a very good challenge - did you see Santana Moss today? Revis is also amazing. There has only been one corner I've ever been able to unquestionably call the best in the league, and he couldn't even tackle. Oh, and his name wasn't Roland.

Yes there are other factors but Aso was consistent the whole year. It wasnt just a case of not challenging him after a big lead, teams didnt challenge him from the start.
The raiders were blownout in some games but they were also close at the half in some of their other losses. After D.Hall was cut they were a lot more competitive except the SD game.

Putting a wr1 against the worst cb doesnt make Aso any less of a cb. If he wasnt good they wouldnt do that. After Chris Johnson replaced D.Hall and did a good job they still wouldnt throw at Aso. One reason the 2nd oak-den game was completely different from the 1st game was that the raiders actually had a decent 2nd cb.

If Delhomme is responsible for Steve smith's lack of success against Aso then shouldnt every cb have had the same success? Sounds like your making up excuses to denie Aso's success.

Webster was good today but Aso is the best cb in the game today. Most any of the coaches, scouts, experts etc will tell you that. I doubt if they just recognize him as the best for nothing.

Yeah bailey is a good corner and has had some shutdown games but i have seen him get burned from time to time. I have yet to see Aso get burned for more than 20yds. Good luck on finding any tape of Aso getting burned.

Barring injury Aso will be all-pro this year. You can bank it. But since he is a raider that would probably just mean hes overrated.

[jbergey22]

Can we add Jay Cutler to this poll?