ALCS: Angels vs Yankees

[MorseMoose]

Do we have a video of this play?

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

Do we have a video of this play?

Here you go.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by NYY #23

It may be a coincidence, but it seems like a lot of the sloppy play this series came from the guys wearing the earflaps - Aybar, Izturis, and Cano. I know its cold, but come on.

Is this the first year that I am seeing these earflaps? Have you ever seen them before?

One thing's for sure, Old School players would have laughed these guys out of the stadium. Then again, those guys didn't play so late in the year.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Is this the first year that I am seeing these earflaps? Have you ever seen them before?

One thing's for sure, Old School players would have laughed these guys out of the stadium. Then again, those guys didn't play so late in the year.

I thought someone wore them last year's World Series in Philly, but I can't be positive. I may have just been oblivious to them, but I've noticed them more this postseason, so I think they are a recent fad. Granted baseball never was played in Colorado in October before, but it can't be that much colder. They just need to toughen up I think.

[myasu]

:d

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by myasu

:d

He gets a pass. I was bundled up watching it at home to be honest, so I'm no one to talk, but when you play you shouldn't wear anything that interferes with your ability to hear.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Generally the "neighborhood play" is given when the shortstop is in a hurry to get the double play turned because of a speedy batter and a baserunner bearing down on him, so the umpire gives him the benefit of the doubt as he flies over the bag. In Aybar's case, though, he had plenty of time and just chose to plant his feet about six inches away from the bag, for no reason that I could tell other than that he simply couldn't be bothered to touch the base. There's no reason at all to give him the call.

The thing is, they do give them the call. They do it all season. The only time they ever not give them the call is when they are too far away from the base. Literally 3-4 feet away. But that rarely happens.

You either honor it or you don't. The players have to know one way or the other. Either touch the bag by rule, or the neighborhood rule. Not sometimes each depending on the ump. Because this is something the players can control if they know the rule.

The baserunner bearing down on him is the usual reason. That was a typical double play, and he still almost got undercut. This is the reason they use the neighborhood rule. More often than not the shortstop isn't even that close. Which is why you sometimes see the runner slide away from the bag just to mess up the shortstop since he isn't always over the bag.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

The thing is, they do give them the call. They do it all season. The only time they ever not give them the call is when they are too far away from the base. Literally 3-4 feet away. But that rarely happens.

You either honor it or you don't. The players have to know one way or the other. Either touch the bag by rule, or the neighborhood rule. Not sometimes each depending on the ump. Because this is something the players can control if they know the rule.

The baserunner bearing down on him is the usual reason. That was a typical double play, and he still almost got undercut. This is the reason they use the neighborhood rule. More often than not the shortstop isn't even that close. Which is why you sometimes see the runner slide away from the bag just to mess up the shortstop since he isn't always over the bag.

You're one of those guys who honks his horn at the guy in front of you if he won't run the red light, aren't you?

[Goody]

The play ended up helping the Angels though, in hindsight. They got further through the heart of the Yankees order without giving up a run.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by mlyons

You're one of those guys who honks his horn at the guy in front of you if he won't run the red light, aren't you?

He makes a good point though. Whats next? Are they going to start calling a batter out if his back foot isnt in the box when he makes contact? Are they going to enforce the 8 second rule? Are we going back to the letter high strike zones?

That ump picked a horrible time to call the neighborhood play safe. If you want to enforce it do it in April dont bring it out in October.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

He makes a good point though. Whats next? Are they going to start calling a batter out if his back foot isnt in the box when he makes contact? Are they going to enforce the 8 second rule? Are we going back to the letter high strike zones?

That ump picked a horrible time to call the neighborhood play safe. If you want to enforce it do it in April dont bring it out in October.

He wasn't calling a neighborhood play, though. Aybar wasn't avoiding the runner or hurrying his throw. He just didn't get anywhere near the bag. It's like the play at the plate between Alex Rodriguez and Mike Napoli the night before. Napoli didn't actually tag Rodriguez, but nobody complained too much about him being called out because there was a collision and he held onto the ball. That's the equivalent of the "neighborhood play". A little leeway is given to the defensive player for the sake of his safety. If Napoli or Rodriguez had avoided contact, though, everyone would be screaming (and rightfully so) if Rodriguez had been called out without a tag being applied. In Aybar's case, he wasn't avoiding contact -- just standing there.

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by NYY #23

Here you go.

Even as a former middle infielder (alright...up through high school...), I hated the "neighborhood play". I thought it was a load of crock and it bugged me seeing guys literally YARDS away from the bag get it called.

When I see something like this though, it bugs me. The people before me have said it perfectly...you can't enforce the rule now, if you hadn't all year long. The guy was a heck of a lot closer to the bag than I've seen called before.

HOWEVER, Aybar was literally inches away. A quick foot flick or change in where you place your feet and we're not talking about it.

This wasn't worse than the foul ball call in the Twins series though...at least, with this one, the infielder was being lazy and the umpire (technically) made the correct call. With this one, the player could have done something to change the umpires mind. With Mauer's hit, the umpire just completely and utterly ****'d up.

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by mlyons

He just didn't get anywhere near the bag.

Now that just isn't true. Watching the play in normal motion, if I didn't know what was going to happen, I'd have thought he got the bag when he was making the move to throw it to first....he WAS that close.

Here's a better angle in which it shows he is less than 2-3 inches from the bag.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

Here's a better angle in which it shows he is less than 2-3 inches from the bag.

That's a terrible angle, actually. A good angle to see it would be one parallel to the edge of the bag. That's nearly forty-five degrees to the bag, which completely distorts the perspective.

EDIT: Watch the last twenty or so seconds of the video NYY #23 linked to above. It's got slow-motion replay from the third-base camera and shows much more clearly how far away he was.

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by Dargone

Hard loss Going to be tough to climb out of a two game hole...

3 outs for an ALCS sweep and Rivera on the mound - that would be tough to climb out of

Millar walked; ROBERTS RAN FOR MILLAR; Roberts stole second; Mueller singled to center [Roberts scored];

[Ragnar]

The bottom line is, he should never have called the play safe. He was close enough that it is never called safe. Umps give even more room on a consistant basis. It has to be called one way or the other consistantly.

Opinions of the neighborhood rule in general are meaningless in this case. That is for another thread. What matters is what is accepted as the general rule. One way or the other.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

The bottom line is, he should never have called the play safe. He was close enough that it is never called safe. Umps give even more room on a consistant basis. It has to be called one way or the other consistantly.

Opinions of the neighborhood rule in general are meaningless in this case. That is for another thread. What matters is what is accepted as the general rule. One way or the other.

My argument is that what Aybar did was so far off from what the umpires normally call an out that it can't realistically be called the same way. Seriously, if anyone can find me a couple of cases where the shortstop was that far away from the bag under that little pressure and the batter was still called out, I'll shut up about it. My opinion about the "neighborhood rule" doesn't come into play here, except to say that this falls outside it.

[Ragnar]

Ok, obviously if you think he was far from the bag after looking at the video then we have nothing to argue about. My point is that he was close to the bag compared to what they normally call all year long. He was strattling the bag. That is all that matters. He can only be so far from the bag of his feet are on both sides. The umps generally call that an out when players are further away.

I've said this before and i'll say it again. Many cases you see the runner slide to the right or left of the bag because the shortstop isn't near 2nd base. And it is still an out!

That play was a textbook neighborhood play. The only thing he did not do is move to the right or left. If that is an example of a safe runner then there is no such thing as the neighborhood rule. Then so be it. But the neighborhood rule is about being in the general area of the bag. Not within 6 inches. It is simply not up to interpretation. You cannot possibly look at that video and tell me he was not in the neighborhood of that bag. That would be impossible for a person with at least one eye.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

It is simply not up to interpretation.

Think about this statement for a second. You're saying that an unwritten "rule" that is actually directly in contradiction with baseball's official rules is not up to interpretation. The only way that could possibly be true is if it were actually enforced to the letter of the law.

And Aybar was not straddling the bag, unless you consider Massachusetts and Rhode Island to be straddling New Jersey. He was well to the left field side.

[mlyons]

dola

Again, show me a couple of instances where a fielder got the call when he was as far away as Aybar was. Don't just vaguely say "that always gets called that way". How does that have any more weight than me saying "that never gets called that way"?