NLCS: Phillies vs Dodgers

[NYY #23]

Pretty funny graphic that MLB ran here, if it wasn't doctored.

[phightin]

just got back from the game and the city such an unreal experience. I'm hoping it's the yankees because it would be a great series, but still got a week to go from now for that to start. I honestly just don't see them losing to the yankees, in fact if there's any team in the league that's capable of steam rolling them it would be the phils. That short porch in right field is not a great a thing to have when you're facing this line-up plus C.C.'s history against them is pretty ugly. But anyway the game and the city were great. Sat in rightfield and Werth was working the crowd the whole game. When he came back out in the 8th after his standing ovation he started literally fist pumping and working the crowd getting them to go nuts it was a blast to be a part of. If they win the series again this year then i don't think it would be to far off saying they're one of the best teams of their era considering it hasnt been done in the nl since the mid 70s.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I love these Phils but the run they had from 1976-1983 is still the best period of the franchise's existence, imho. This team had a chance to do something similar and kept coming up a game short of the postseason year after year. At this point they're getting old enough that I don't think they have much of a chance of keeping it going long-term.

Amazingly, while this year they put together the best record they've had with the current team, 2009 ranks 14th in franchise history for win/loss % (and 5th since WWII, behind 2 Schmidt teams, the 93 team, and the Whiz kids).

I think if the Phillies had Cliff Lee the entire year, win/loss % would be debatable. The Phillies starting pitching was better last year. Moyer has been hurt this year and Hamels record and ERA off as well.

The '93 team had a very good starting staff for the entire year, but not quite as much offense as the current team. I think the '93 team was the most balanced for the whole year.

The 76-83 teams had Steve Carlton and Schmidt. Aside from Dick Ruthven and John Denny having a few good seasons, I don't think the pitching was as good as the '93 team. I think the current team's offense blows away this era's teams, both in speed and power.

[Jason Moyer]

The thing with the 93 team (who I obviously would rank below the current one, as fun as that year was, since they did absolutely nothing other than that one season) that was incredible was Fregosi's use of the bench. Having MVP-like seasons from Dykstra and Daulton obvoiusly helped, but other than those two the real difference between the 93 Phils and every other year from that era were the contributions from the bench. Fregosi used a ton of substitutes that year and did a lot of platooning (neither of which he did in other seasons, for some reason) and the players that came off the bench played lights out. The pitching on that team was totally overrated, but that was the case with most of the Phillies pitchers from around 1990 until Citizen's opened.

I'd agree that the current team probably has a better offense than the 70's Phils, although they had a lot more than Mike Schmidt - Allen/Hebner/Luzinski all had amazing years for them at the plate, and Rose/Johnstone/Maddox/Boone were all good hitters. Defensively, the 70's Phillies were amazing - not to put down the current team, but up the middle you're talking Boone/Bowa/Cash/Maddox or Boone/Bowa/Sizemore/Maddox or Boone/Bowa/Trilllo/Maddox or even Diaz/DeJesus/Morgan/Maddox at the end. That's not including the shortstop they had playing third base. Pitching wise, well, ok, they had Carlton and a fantastic bullpen.

Anyway, setting all of this aside, the main reason I rate the 70's Phils higher is long-term, sustained success. This current team isn't there yet, and while it seems likely they'll get there, they're a much older team than most people realise, and it wouldn't be surprising if they were back to winning 80-84 games a year again after this year. Being a huge Phillies fan, I obviously would like to see them win the World Series this year and then have Cole return to form and have Ibanez take some anti-aging cream and have Rollins/Utley play defense like they're 24 again and have Amaro pull an awesome young catcher out of some hidden corner of the Phils minor system and have Howard keep the weight off and not hit .220 the first half of the season and have Amaro pick up David Wright and then see the Phillies win 100+ games for the first time in 30 years. The rational baseball analyst in me is just thinking 80-84 wins for this team going forward is a lot more likely than 95-105. I'd be satisfied with 90-ish and a (third?) world series ring though.

[TribeFanInNC]

Cliff Lee is a total difference maker. As and Indians fan, it makes me and .

[Jason Moyer]

Cliff Lee is great. If he can continue to pitch like he has the last 2 seasons, the combination of he and Utley is very nearly on par with the best years of Schmidt and Carlton, which makes me look forward to next year. On the other hand, the Phillies leadoff man finished with an OBP under .300 this year and has been below average defensively 4 out of the last 6 seasons. That's the thing...this team has a lot of flaws, and Citizen's Park is making the offense seem a lot better than it really is, just as the Vet made everyone think the Phillies had pitching and no hitting in the 90's and early part of this decade.

On a side note, this year's team scored 820 runs. The 1977 team scored 847. Of course, neither of those is in the top 10 in franchise history. The 93 team slots into 10th with 877 though. Which is a ton for that league/ballpark. The 07 team scored more than that, but with an OPS+ of 102 vs the 93 team's 108. Last year's team scored 799.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

the Phillies leadoff man finished with an OBP under .300 this year and has been below average defensively 4 out of the last 6 seasons.

Well J-Roll did have a jekyll and hyde season being one of the worst starting ss the first half and one of the best players overall the second, but to say his defense is below average and has been for the past 4 seasons? Are you watching the same rollins I've been for the past 8-9 years? I can't think of too many SS's in the league that have a better range, glove, and arm than he does. While I agree he will never be a guy that hits .290-.300 with an obp of .380 consistently and is a bit overrated offensively, he's been one of if not the best defensively at his position throughout his career.

[Jason Moyer]

I don't have defensive win shares for most of Jimmy's career, but he's been below average in Fielding Runs almost every year. I haven't figured the Phillies expected double plays, but they've been consistently near the bottom of the league in DP's by shortstops for years.

Edit: I have no idea why BR shows JR being above average in FR while he's consistently negative going by BP's stats.

[Mike R]

I'm 50 and I've been a Phillies fan all my life. Without a doubt I have to rate this current Phillies team as their best. Although the 76 & 77 teams both won 101 games in the regular season they lacked something this current team has. This team expects to win. If they lose a heartbreaker or have a bad inning, they come right back at you.

Over the last 2 post seasons the current team is 18 - 5 and has won 5 straight post season series. Back in the 70's all we wanted was one

This team is changing the attitude of the fans. Last year after game 5 was suspended, people were talking about whether Cole Hammels would be able to pitch game 7. I remember Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins wondering why people were talking about game 7 like they had already lost 5 & 6.

My youngest son laughs at me. He doesn't understand all the heartbreak the Phillies have put me through. For example with the Phils ahead 9 - 4 in game 5, the Dodgers had bases loaded and no outs. I was nervous as hell. I visioned all the bad things that could happen especially when Thome was on deck. But they shut the Dodgers down. And when they won the series, the on field celebration wasn't much more then they do during a regular game. The just expect to win. As I watch the games I try to tell myself this team is different but old habits die hard.

I always considered the 77 team as the best all around team with hitting, pitching and defense but I'll take this team over them hands down.