[William Foster]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Please explain 1947-64 where the Yankees made the World Series 15 times out of 18 seasons, all without free agency and outbidding other clubs for the services of top players.

Since the draft wasn't implemented until 1965.. they just outbid every weaker club for the top young prospects in the nation.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

They played for the love of the game back then. This entire thread I've spent saying I don't like how things are now. I love those old Yankees teams.

I really don't mind if a team is dominating a league for awhile. As long as its not because they are spending over 900% of what another team is spending.

That's just dumb.

But as people are trying to say. The Yankees did outspend other teams. They bought good players right out of amateur status, and the transaction rules in the past limited player movement. Lou Gehrig was a great high school player that originally went to college but got lured to the Yankees by money. Joe DiMaggio was sold to the Yankees from a minor league team for big money.

If you love the old Yankees teams, then you are loving teams bought by money too.

It the system is still like the old days, Alex Rodriguez would have spent all his career with the Yankees.

[Goody]

Originally Posted by William Foster

Since the draft wasn't implemented until 1965.. they just outbid every weaker club for the top young prospects in the nation.

And they fixed it. Will they keep trying to fix it, or are we just resigned to follow the other sports if we're in a smaller city than the top 5?

[marc]

Originally Posted by Goody

And they fixed it. Will they keep trying to fix it, or are we just resigned to follow the other sports if we're in a smaller city than the top 5?

Spread the wealth evenly!! Hooray communism!!!

[William Foster]

Originally Posted by Goody

And they fixed it. Will they keep trying to fix it, or are we just resigned to follow the other sports if we're in a smaller city than the top 5?

Its not like the NBA or NFL are bastions of competitive equality either to be honest.

I agree with you that something should be done.. as an A's fan I've watched too many of our players be lost to free agency or trade and end up more successful. What should be done? Maybe not capping spending necessarily but to make it WORTH IT for every Franchise to try and field a competitive club. Now that could definitely involve capping spending but..

[William Foster]

Originally Posted by marc

Spread the wealth evenly!! Hooray communism!!!

Technically in Communism their would be absolutely no wealth to spread since everybody would evolve beyond the concept in a truly communistic society. Yeah the actual definition is even more utterly ridiculous in this case..

[BaseballMan]

So if there is a salary cap how would this prevent small market teams from not spending on players? I mean the Yankees will still be able to go after the best players. They just may not be able to get as many. Should there be a minimum amount a team has to spend? Because otherwise im not sure teams like Pitt will be any different than now. It may not be as wide a gap as now but big market teams are always gonna have an advantage.

[William Foster]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

So if there is a salary cap how would this prevent small market teams from not spending on players? I mean the Yankees will still be able to go after the best players. They just may not be able to get as many. Should there be a minimum amount a team has to spend? Because otherwise im not sure teams like Pitt will be any different than now. It may not be as wide a gap as now but big market teams are always gonna have an advantage.

Agreed. Small-Market teams have to be given incentive to spend and a salary cap doesn't necessarily do that.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by William Foster

Since the draft wasn't implemented until 1965.. they just outbid every weaker club for the top young prospects in the nation.

Except that, with fewer MLB clubs, there was more talent available to be spread around. Plus ALL clubs spent lots of money on amateur players. That's why the draft was implemented in the first place—all clubs were furiously attempting to outbid each other for amateur players. Some clubs were spending more on signing bonuses than they were on their payrolls.

Since this was too much like actual free-market competition for MLB, the draft was instituted.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

And they fixed it. Will they keep trying to fix it, or are we just resigned to follow the other sports if we're in a smaller city than the top 5?

But didn't you just say you like the old Yankees? Where they bought up all great prospects and dominate the league year-in-year-out?

You don't like that anymore I guess.

[Goody]

Originally Posted by marc

Spread the wealth evenly!! Hooray communism!!!

I'm so tired of this argument. Its sports, not doctors and lawyers Vs. fast food workers.

Our military is a communist organization as well, according to your logic.

[Goody]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

But didn't you just say you like the old Yankees? Where they bought up all great prospects and dominate the league year-in-year-out?

You don't like that anymore I guess.

Yeah, you guys ruined it for me. You win the debate, hooray for you!

[marc]

Originally Posted by Goody

I'm so tired of this argument.

You and me both. Salary caps are horrible. They don't make the game more enjoyable, they pretty much kill any type of greatness or dynasties because even if a team is able to stockpile a bunch of young talent, they can't afford to keep it....

It bails out poorly run organizations, it doesn't ensure that owners are trying their best to field competitive teams, players still want to play in big markets anyway....

I mean shall I continue?

I wish Salary Caps would cease to exist in all sports, they absolutely suck.

[Goody]

Originally Posted by marc

You and me both. Salary caps are horrible. They don't make the game more enjoyable, they pretty much kill any type of greatness or dynasties because even if a team is able to stockpile a bunch of young talent, they can't afford to keep it....

Many people already pointed out in this thread that it does nothing to stop dynasties and greatness by bringing up examples from the NFL and NBA. The dynasties are still there, its just fair dynasties where the well run organizations are rewarded for doing it with the same resources as the other guy.

It bails out poorly run organizations, it doesn't ensure that owners are trying their best to field competitive teams, players still want to play in big markets anyway....

I mean shall I continue?

It seems that the poorly run organizations are being bailed out the most in baseball as it stands now. The owners are still getting rich, the players are still rich...but the teams still suck. In the NBA, the Sonics were very poorly run after the Payton and Kemp era ended. Look what happened to them, they're in OKC now. How is that a reward?

[BaseballMan]

The yankees may have won more championships since free agency started around 1976. But look at how many different champions baseball has had in that time. We also had teams like the Royals & Pirates winning in that time span.
I like having some small market teams win while having the big market dynastys win too. Which i think weve had. Yeah the Yankees may win it it this year but nobody complains when Arizona & Florida beat them. Well except maybe Yankee fans.

[William Foster]

Except that, with fewer MLB clubs, there was more talent available to be spread around.

The talent pool was also SUBSTANTIALLY smaller at the time due to the lack of Black (and most latino/all asian) players and the smaller population. Although at the same time Football and Basketball weren't taking players so you could at least argue your case I suppose.

Plus ALL clubs spent lots of money on amateur players. That's why the draft was implemented in the first place—all clubs were furiously attempting to outbid each other for amateur players.

Not ALL clubs spent more on amateur players. A few of the worse-run/lame-duck clubs (Phillies, Athletics, Browns, Braves, etc.) couldn't afford top talent for more then a few years at a time if at all. The Yankees had a pretty steady revenue in stark comparison thanks to being dominant at the right time (when they built their new colossal stadium).

Since this was too much like actual free-market competition for MLB, the draft was instituted.

Correct on this part. The MLB knew players would cost crap-loads more on the open-market then if they were drafted.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Goody

The dynasties are still there, its just fair dynasties where the well run organizations are rewarded for doing it with the same resources as the other guy.

So what is fair about a team with a great scouting department that isn't able to keep all of their players, not because they don't have the money to keep them but because the league says they aren't allowed to spend the necessary money to keep them even if they have it.

Yeah, that's fairness for ya!

Please. A salary cap hasn't changed the fortunes of poorly run franchises and there are numerous examples of teams that didn't spend a ton of money making and winning the World Series.

I would be in favor of some sort of rookie slotting system though. This would allow teams with pathetic and greedy ownerrship like the Pirates to stop hiding behind the excuse that they can't take the best player for financial reasons.

With the years that baseball organizations have pretty much total control over their players that is all that is needed. If you can't draft talent and develop that talent over a 7-year period, a salary cap isn't gonna help you.

[marc]

Whoops wrong thread! NM!

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

Many people already pointed out in this thread that it does nothing to stop dynasties and greatness by bringing up examples from the NFL and NBA. The dynasties are still there, its just fair dynasties where the well run organizations are rewarded for doing it with the same resources as the other guy.

I do think it damages the NFL dynasties but not the NBA ones. Players just don't and can't stick around. The dynasties nowadays have very little consistency in personnel. NBA is better partially because they can keep players without salary cap restrictions, although luxury tax is still making it hard.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Goody

Many people already pointed out in this thread that it does nothing to stop dynasties and greatness by bringing up examples from the NFL and NBA. The dynasties are still there, its just fair dynasties where the well run organizations are rewarded for doing it with the same resources as the other guy.

Please define "fair" in this context.

Originally Posted by Goody

It seems that the poorly run organizations are being bailed out the most in baseball as it stands now.

And how does a salary cap change that?

Originally Posted by Goody

The owners are still getting rich, the players are still rich...but the teams still suck.

Do you think it was really any better during the reserve clause era in terms of teams performing poorly?

Originally Posted by William Foster

The talent pool was also SUBSTANTIALLY smaller at the time due to the lack of Black (and most latino/all asian) players and the smaller population.

There were also substantially fewer Major League teams.

Originally Posted by William Foster

Not ALL clubs spent more on amateur players.

No, they all did, it's just that some were willing or able to spend more.

Signing bonuses stayed relatively modest until the WWII years, when the demands of the war effort took away much of the Major League talent resulting in greater competition for promising amateur players. In 1942, the competition resulted in Detroit paying out a then-record signing bonus of $52,000. The first club to pay a $100,000 signing bonus was Pittsburgh in 1950. The Pirates set the Major League record again in 1961, paying out a $175,000 signing bonus. In 1964, MLB estimated that over $7 million was paid out in signing bonuses to amateur players. This was more than was being spent on Major League player salaries.