[mlyons]

Oh, sure, aesthetically and from a standpoint of maximizing the number of people who can actually attend a game, you're better off with teams in relatively small cities like Kansas City and Milwaukee than you would be with four teams in New York and four in LA. That doesn't make it representative, though, and it does leave you with the problem of some teams having a much smaller potential fan base.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

I meant that, in this case, the league could be filled with teams form NY. It would be NY NY NY NY, ATL ATL, Philly, Philly, Philly, Chicago, Chicago, Chicago, LA LA LA LA. Maybe the occasionaly team from Dallas or something.

Certainly, the larger cities would be host to more teams, but there are still practical limits on how many clubs a given area could support. With thirty teams, there'd still be room for other cities to be represented, just not quite as many as now.

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

That type of set up would not be any fun at all. I like seeing a team from KC. People get the chance to see different cities on TV, other than the stereotypical NY/LA.

Well, there are currently five London area-based clubs in the Premier League, and there seems to be a spirited enough competition between them and plenty of interest in general in the PL.

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

And besides the fact that, how would they fill out the divisions? Unless there are no divisions like it used to be.

In this age of jet travel, that's not really a big deal. Besides, up until 2001, they used to play a balanced schedule.

[Nihilianth]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Certainly, the larger cities would be host to more teams, but there are still practical limits on how many clubs a given area could support. With thirty teams, there'd still be room for other cities to be represented, just not quite as many as now.

Still wouldn't be fun to see more than two....MAYBE three....teams in NY.

Well, there are currently five London area-based clubs in the Premier League, and there seems to be a spirited enough competition between them and plenty of interest in general in the PL.

Nobody cares about the UK...and especially soccer. (Is the UK even a country. Hell, is soccer even a sport..... )

In this age of jet travel, that's not really a big deal. Besides, up until 2001, they used to play a balanced schedule.

Yeah, but I think player's sense of time would be pretty screwed up. Even more so than what it currently is like.

And besides, I really don't know why they stopped with the balanced schedule, anyway. I suppose it adds more strategy for ball clubs, and their managers with an unbalanced schedule, which is generally a good thing.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

I highly doubt a team like the Royals could break in on a market like NYC, simply because NY already has two franchises, both of which have long traditions. Especially the Yankees. I think other teams that would try to break in NY would have an even more of a tough time. Plus, I'm sure New Yorkers wouldn't want to foot ANOTHER bill for ANOTHER stadium. NYC already has 4 stadiums, and 4 arenas.

And I am pretty sure a lot of small market teams would still do much better as the 3rd or 4th team in New York in an old and existing stadium than staying where they are.

[Skipaway]

Clippers ticket price is about twice the Hornets ticket price, and the attendence level is about the same.

That tells you how bigger cities really deserve having more teams in general.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

Still wouldn't be fun to see more than two....MAYBE three....teams in NY.

Why? There is implicit in your opposition the idea that someone cannot root for a team unless it represents their particular city/town/local area. That's certainly not the case; the New York Yankees have fans across the United States, and around the world for that matter. So does Manchester United.

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

Nobody cares about the UK...

If you can't see a perfectly correct analogy and actual demonstration of a no-territorial-monopoly league system in action, what are we to do?

[Goody]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Why? There is implicit in your opposition the idea that someone cannot root for a team unless it represents their particular city/town/local area. That's certainly not the case; the New York Yankees have fans across the United States, and around the world for that matter. So does Manchester United.

If you can't see a perfectly correct analogy and actual demonstration of a no-territorial-monopoly league system in action, what are we to do?

Bandwagon...

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

Bandwagon...

Bandwagon fans are bad for bad teams, but good for good teams. That's why I love bandwagon fans. They are the main driving forces for teams to improve.

If a team can keep fans without winning, why bother?

[William Foster]

Originally Posted by Goody

Bandwagon...

There will be bandwagon fans in any sport for teams like the Los Angeles Lakers, Manchester United, Notre Dame Fighting Irish, Dallas Cowboys, etc.

Get used to it. Many of these teams will possess tremendous advantages over our favorite teams in terms of fan support and media coverage salary-cap or no salary cap. While I agree some degree of reform is needed a Salary Cap in Baseball won't work. The MLBPA is dead set against it and its not going to happen. That doesn't mean other things to increase balance in the league can't be done of course but nothing on the table currently seems to do the job fully or enough to justify making the change.

[Ragnar]

I have several arguments against the salcap rule. But the main one is......it doesn't work. Maybe it works in theory, but in practice it's useless.

Don't compare baseball to football on the pro level and say the cap has anything to do with it. The NFL will always squash MLB.

With the salcap we got our first 0-16 team ever that was not expansion. The year before we got our first regular season 16-0 team. And this season, instead of parity we have a huge disparity. Teams like Washington, Chiefs, Raiders, Bucs, Lions, Browns, Rams, Titans, are absolutely horrible. Then you have the two SB teams, Saints and Pats, the rest are middle of the road teams.

Is this what the salcap is supposed to do? Maybe it is not implemented correctly? Because it has certainly been in place long enough.

No cap or FA system will make up for poor ownership and general management. Because this is the first season I have seen so many teams that are just a waste.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

No, that is not what I meant at all.

I meant that, in this case, the league could be filled with teams form NY. It would be NY NY NY NY, ATL ATL, Philly, Philly, Philly, Chicago, Chicago, Chicago, LA LA LA LA. Maybe the occasionaly team from Dallas or something.

That type of set up would not be any fun at all. I like seeing a team from KC. People get the chance to see different cities on TV, other than the stereotypical NY/LA.

And besides the fact that, how would they fill out the divisions? Unless there are no divisions like it used to be. But in that case, you'll end up seeing the same two or three teams in the playoffs, because only two teams will actually get the chance of making it. Maybe 4 with the WC.

If you did have divisions, you would have very odd divisions, with maybe ATL have to be placed in either the central or western divisions.

There's no reason you couldn't have seven teams in New York, four or five in LA and Chicago, and one each in KC, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Baltimore, or where ever. In fact, with many teams splitting the markets in the three biggest metropolises it would be far easier for major league teams in Portland, San Antonio, Sacramento, Columbus, etc to compete. The bar will no longer be set at the level of a big-market team with a $120M payroll, the bar will be the natural equilibrium point the league as a whole will find.

The solution is to eliminate territorial barriers and make expansion far easier. Or just add 2-3 more competing major leagues.

In any case, with the population expansion and foreign talent influx you could expand to 60 or 80 teams (gradually, of course) before you'd get back to the competitive and talent levels of the 50s and 60s. And using places like the DR as an example, it seems that economic incentives drive people to become baseball players, so there's a good argument that there's no real limit to the number of MLB teams the population could supply with talent.

[yankeesrule]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

There's no reason you couldn't have seven teams in New York, four or five in LA and Chicago, and one each in KC, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Baltimore, or where ever. In fact, with many teams splitting the markets in the three biggest metropolises it would be far easier for major league teams in Portland, San Antonio, Sacramento, Columbus, etc to compete. The bar will no longer be set at the level of a big-market team with a $120M payroll, the bar will be the natural equilibrium point the league as a whole will find.

The solution is to eliminate territorial barriers and make expansion far easier. Or just add 2-3 more competing major leagues.

In any case, with the population expansion and foreign talent influx you could expand to 60 or 80 teams (gradually, of course) before you'd get back to the competitive and talent levels of the 50s and 60s. And using places like the DR as an example, it seems that economic incentives drive people to become baseball players, so there's a good argument that there's no real limit to the number of MLB teams the population could supply with talent.

you are also assuming that the new teams in those cities would bring in fans in big numbers comparable to the teams that are already there. unless they set ticket prices at 2/3 or lower the level of the teams currently in place, i dont see many fans(for NY we'll say Yankee and Met fans) that are willing to ditch their fandom of their current team for the Royals, Brewers, Reds etc if they suddenly started playing in the city. And if they came in and set prices that low, I dont think they'd be able to have payrolls similar to what the current teams in place have.

[Nihilianth]

well, you all may like to see 8 or 9 teams in a single city. That's just an opinion. My opinion is that it would suck to see 8 or 9 teams in NY, but none in KC, or Milwaukee.

And no, I really do not see how people think that New York and Philly are representative of America. Sure, these cities have HUGE populations, but NY, Philly, and LA HARDLY make America what it is today. I kinda like the idea of smaller cities being represented in America's game, especially cities like St. Louis, which are cities that are traditionally markets for the cast farms in the midwest.

[mlyons]

I think you also have a really weird idea of how big Philadelphia is. Our population is just under a million and a half. That's smaller than Phoenix, and not much bigger than San Antonio, Dallas, or San Diego. It's nowhere near the size of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, or even Houston.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Nihilianth

well, you all may like to see 8 or 9 teams in a single city. That's just an opinion. My opinion is that it would suck to see 8 or 9 teams in NY, but none in KC, or Milwaukee.

And no, I really do not see how people think that New York and Philly are representative of America. Sure, these cities have HUGE populations, but NY, Philly, and LA HARDLY make America what it is today. I kinda like the idea of smaller cities being represented in America's game, especially cities like St. Louis, which are cities that are traditionally markets for the cast farms in the midwest.

It's weird to say these teams represent the cities they are in. In which way do they do that? It's not like they consist of local players. They really are just entertainment options available in different places. Bigger cities having more games isn't that different from bigger cities having more big concerts.

And it's not like the Cardinals would leave St. Louis for New York. They already have a pretty big fan base, and if more teams go into the New York market, the Cardinals might ended up having bigger fan base than the New York teams.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by mlyons

I think you also have a really weird idea of how big Philadelphia is. Our population is just under a million and a half. That's smaller than Phoenix, and not much bigger than San Antonio, Dallas, or San Diego. It's nowhere near the size of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, or even Houston.

Philadelphia does have the 4th largest TV market.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by mlyons

I think you also have a really weird idea of how big Philadelphia is. Our population is just under a million and a half. That's smaller than Phoenix, and not much bigger than San Antonio, Dallas, or San Diego. It's nowhere near the size of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, or even Houston.

City population is not what's important; it's metropolitan area population that matters. And on that score, in 2008 Philadelphia had the fifth largest MSA population behind New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Dallas. The Philadelphia metropolitan division population alone was larger than the MSA population of Seattle, Minneapolis-St. Paul, San Diego, St. Louis, and eight other MSAs with MLB teams.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

City population is not what's important; it's metropolitan area population that matters. And on that score, in 2008 Philadelphia had the fifth largest MSA population behind New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Dallas. The Philadelphia metropolitan division population alone was larger than the MSA population of Seattle, Minneapolis-St. Paul, San Diego, St. Louis, and eight other MSAs with MLB teams.

Right, it's a big market, but not some colossus bestriding the Mid-Atlantic the way Nihilianth seemed to imply. It's fifth in market size, but the dropoff after the first three is really big.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Right, it's a big market, but not some colossus bestriding the Mid-Atlantic the way Nihilianth seemed to imply. It's fifth in market size, but the dropoff after the first three is really big.

Might as well put some numbers to that. MSA population estimates for 2008:

1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA: 19,006,798
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA: 12,872,808
3. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI: 9,569,624
4. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX: 6,300,006
5. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD: 5,838,471

[Walkoff]

This will probably piss you off.

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