MLB Salary Cap (Or..just...something!) Redux of the Redux

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

ANYTHING, to fix this shuffling of star players off to already loaded teams.

Salary caps will not cure that problem. It could make it much worse.

Same thing happens in NBA a lot. Actually the kind of trade that sent Garnett to Boston and Gasol to Los Angeles only happened because of salary cap. In MLB teams would have traded for real talent instead of cap space. In NFL, we actually see teams releasing star players for salary cap reasons. When you have salary caps, you lost payroll flexibility, therefore you can't pay the team more just because the team is better. You are forced to fit everybody into the cap, therefore good but not good enough for the cap space-consumed would be let go.


To limit star player movement, you have to tinker with transaction rules. Stuff like giving the original team easier ways to buy back free agents ( restricted free agency, Bird rights, franchise tags) , limit trades ( reduce the trade window; limit what players can be traded), change contract terms ( guaranteed contracts), AND make sure salary cap is not going to be in the way.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by Goody

Regardless of who owns a team they shouldn't be paying out of their own pocket and looked down upon if they don't.

I don't think people expect owners to draw down their personal wealth to put out a competitive team (well, most people don't). I do think people expect that owners shouldn't be allowed to add to their personal wealth by not fielding a competitive team, though. It's a fine distinction, true, but personally I'm outraged that supposedly poverty-stricken teams like Pittsburgh and Florida are allowed to take in more money from revenue sharing than they spend on salary, with all that extra money just disappearing into what I can only assume is the owners' pockets.

[jbergey22]

I havent exactly caught up on this thread. I started reading page 1 and seen a lot of interesting points.

Attendance figures are up and the league seems to be doing quite well however I think they are losing the loyalty of fans. Im not sure that the cap would accomplish what a lot of people are after. I think what most people want is their players to stay with the team they cheer for. You get attatched to certain players and the next thing you know they are a Yankee.

A couple of recent examples are the Indians and Athletics. They both had a solid young core in place and have pretty much had to start over within the past 2-3 years. I am sure this puts a bitter taste in their mouth. Also, as a Twins fan I was pissed for the first 2-3 months of the 08 season because my favorite Twin was gone(Johan Santana).

Its fair to the players that have earned it but it sucks for fans.

The players Union will never go for a salary cap anyway. They already give 6 years to a team the way it is.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

With the salcap we got our first 0-16 team ever that was not expansion. The year before we got our first regular season 16-0 team. And this season, instead of parity we have a huge disparity. Teams like Washington, Chiefs, Raiders, Bucs, Lions, Browns, Rams, Titans, are absolutely horrible. Then you have the two SB teams, Saints and Pats, the rest are middle of the road teams.

You make a lot of great points and follow it with your super bowl prediction Actually you make a lot of sense however I think you are missing a lot of teams IF you really think the Colts, Vikings, Steelers, Giants are middle of the road teams. Your theory wouldnt even make sense if this was the case. As all the mediocre teams must be losing their good players to good teams in order to make them so horrible so where have the good players gone? All on the Patriots and Saints?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

The players Union will never go for a salary cap anyway. They already give 6 years to a team the way it is.

Strictly speaking, it's more than that. A player is contractually bound to his major league organization while in the minors for seven seasons before he becomes a free agent. And if advanced to the major league roster, it takes six years of major league service to qualify for free agency which might take more than six calendar years to acquire if he spends much of his option years in the minors.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You make a lot of great points and follow it with your super bowl prediction Actually you make a lot of sense however I think you are missing a lot of teams IF you really think the Colts, Vikings, Steelers, Giants are middle of the road teams. Your theory wouldnt even make sense if this was the case. As all the mediocre teams must be losing their good players to good teams in order to make them so horrible so where have the good players gone? All on the Patriots and Saints?

If good players all go to good teams, then the Saints wouldn't be the destination for good players. They were considered mediocre before the season starts.

[Vinny P.]

Damn, sorry, been away for a couple of days. The boards went down, and my internet cut out, then I went up to NYC. lol.

Anyway:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Why? There is implicit in your opposition the idea that someone cannot root for a team unless it represents their particular city/town/local area. That's certainly not the case; the New York Yankees have fans across the United States, and around the world for that matter. So does Manchester United.

That is certainly true, and I am not trying to argue with oyu on that point. However, it is also true that the BIGGEST supporters of all teams, even the NY Yankees, and the Man U teams of the world still come from people in those cities. And teams like Pitt, and Cincy derive most of their fans FORM those cities.

[quoteIf you can't see a perfectly correct analogy and actual demonstration of a no-territorial-monopoly league system in action, what are we to do?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, not sure what you mean here. I gtg. brb in this thread tomorrow.

[yankeesrule]

Regarding NFL and "parity", not totally sure I buy it. Over the past few seasons, you have your perenial powers(Pats, Colts, Giants, Cowboys, Steelers) then some above average teams(Titans, Cards, Chargers), some real bottom feeders(Lions, Bengals, Browns) and then a bunch of middle of the road teams. The main thing that changes those middle of the road teams from each other could probably be cut down to a few plays each season that change them from 10-6 to 6-10.

At least this is how I see it.

[Goody]

I found this to be very well written.

American Chronicle | Baseball needs a Salary Cap

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

I found this to be very well written.

American Chronicle | Baseball needs a Salary Cap

The article uses the most common argument for salary cap:

1. Salary cap leads to parity
2. NFL has salary cap, and NFL is popular. NFL is popular because it has the parity generated by salary cap

The article doesn't really spend any effort proving these hypothesis, and I don't think either one is true.

Most pro-leagues in the US have salary cap, and I don't think there is a proven record of parity. You can't prove that in NFL, let along NBA or other leagues.

There is also no evidence showing parity is important for popularity. College sports obviously are popular thanks to talent not evenly distributed. MLB obviously is still wildly more popular than all leagues with salary caps other than NFL.

It's extremely weak to depends on NFL as a singular example for the success of salary cap. What exactly have salary cap done for NHL? Does it become very popular now since it implemented salary cap?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

What exactly have salary cap done for NHL?

Well, it's allowed the Toronto Maple Leafs to become even more profitable than they were before since the club is now restricted in what it can spend on payroll ($66.4 million in net operating income on revenues of $160 million for the 2007-08 season, according to Forbes).

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by marc

This is America. I can't think of anything more communistic and un-american than a Salary Cap. You don't penalize teams that have good fanbases that actually support the team.

Life isn't fair, the local food mart doesn't have the same chance to succeed as a Wal-Mart franchise. Why in the world should these leagues go out of their way to make bad teams and poorly run franchises more successful?

In the business world, and let's face it that is what pro sports is, those franchises would fold or go out of business.

Sports relies on reasonably fair competition between teams to keep fan interest up. If one team starts out having a league-granted and government-supported monopoly on a huge population base, and another team starts out having a similar monopoly on a population base 1/5th as big, you've slanted the results before you play a single game.

How is it American to have the government of New York give the Yankees and Mets $billions in tax dollar to subsidize their business? How is it American to pretend that a team with $400M in annual revenues and no limits on how they use those revenues is in equal competition with a team from a rustbelt city with a tiny fraction of New York's population and wealth?

Yes, it's a problem that MLB has made it less risky for small market teams to not try than it is to try. They've incentivized losing, and that's horrible. But that doesn't make it all right that the Yankees and other large market teams have been granted sole domain over massive population centers with incredible wealth.

If the Royals or the Orioles were 100% efficient and had owners who were 100% dedicated to fielding a winning team they still couldn't spend half as much as the Yankees. I think it's wrong to have a sports league where some teams simply cannot develop resources necessary to compete with their peers no matter what they do.

One of America's founding pricipals is that all are created equal. Everyone has the same opportunity to succeed based on their abilities and their hard work. Baseball has decided that all teams are created very unequally, and that's ok, because if you're the Rays or the Orioles and you work really hard and make smart decisions you can reap the rewards of finishing 10 games behind the Sox and Yanks.

[Skipaway]

The result of all college games are slanted, and nobody is talking about making that even. I don't think college games will be more interesting if you force Ohio State to operate on the same level with North Dakota.

I don't see why people in places like Baltimore would want to complain about how their market size is not as big as New York. They are already much better off than Boise, where the market size is way smaller and doesn't even have a team. Of course what you get as entertainment options will depend on the market size. I am not gonna cry foul that the Japanese restaurants in Kansas City is not as good as the ones in Los Angeles.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

One of America's founding pricipals is that all are created equal. Everyone has the same opportunity to succeed based on their abilities and their hard work. Baseball has decided that all teams are created very unequally, and that's ok, because if you're the Rays or the Orioles and you work really hard and make smart decisions you can reap the rewards of finishing 10 games behind the Sox and Yanks.

And the principal is that all people are created equal, not all business entities are created equal.

If a person performs greatly with the Rays, he should be given every chance to succeed with other teams, just like how we are all given fair chances to jump from one company to another.

Let's say you are a software engineer, by default your chance of success would be much bigger in Seattle than in Detroit. That's unfair, but that is American life. People expect you to either work harder and make it in Detroit, or just move to Seattle. Nobody would be talking about how Seattle should share software jobs with Detroit.

[Goody]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

The result of all college games are slanted, and nobody is talking about making that even. I don't think college games will be more interesting if you force Ohio State to operate on the same level with North Dakota.

I don't see why people in places like Baltimore would want to complain about how their market size is not as big as New York. They are already much better off than Boise, where the market size is way smaller and doesn't even have a team. Of course what you get as entertainment options will depend on the market size. I am not gonna cry foul that the Japanese restaurants in Kansas City is not as good as the ones in Los Angeles.

Other entertainment options aren't based on the principle of a fair game between two teams. This slant of your argument isn't the best you've used so far.

And college sports are different. The NCAA at least tries to stop $ being the driving force for the recruits. If Boise State can attract good players with a well run program and prestige of its team's history, that's more genuine than just shelling out big bucks to ensure more wins.

[jbergey22]

Ok now we are getting completely off the topic.

College sports do not belong in this conversation nor do Japenese restuarants.

The idea Goody had earlier seemed like it has promise. A cap on what other teams can pay a player while existing teams can go above that amount.

We can all play dumb and act like the problem doesnt exist or we can admit something needs to be done so teams like Pirates, Royals, and A's can compete financially.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

Other entertainment options aren't based on the principle of a fair game between two teams. This slant of your argument isn't the best you've used so far.

And college sports are different. The NCAA at least tries to stop $ being the driving force for the recruits. If Boise State can attract good players with a well run program and prestige of its team's history, that's more genuine than just shelling out big bucks to ensure more wins.

Other entertainment options......like college sports?

Actually I don't really know how you come up with the idea that same chance to win is important for sports entertainments. People want exciting games, not "same chance to win" games. Otherwise, try turn WNBA popular by making the chance to win more even.

In college sports, NCAA is only stopping teams from giving athletes money directly, but it's not stopping richer teams from spending much more on facilities. "Well run program" and "prestige" are things where money can give you a huge leg up. You achieve that through spending more money to hire better people, spending more money on better facilities, spending more money to build better academic reputation,....... I don't know if you simply consider it more genuine when money's influence is not out in the open. We all know how college sports have tons of money in it, just not directly to the players.

[jbergey22]

Again I ask. What do college sports have anything to do with Major League Baseball and their financial situation? Colleges are funded through entirely different principals.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Ok now we are getting completely off the topic.

College sports do not belong in this conversation nor do Japenese restuarants.

The idea Goody had earlier seemed like it has promise. A cap on what other teams can pay a player while existing teams can go above that amount.

Neither do NFL belong in this conversation if you simply want to say "XXX is different".

The discussion is all mixed up now. Are we talking about salary cap or are we talking about letting teams keep their players longer? If now the goal is later, than NFL shows you how salary cap has nothing to do with that, and we don't even need to consider salary caps to achieve that.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Again I ask. What do college sports have anything to do with Major League Baseball and their financial situation? Colleges are funded through entirely different principals.

How entirely different? They are founded by tickets and donations from fans and TV money and Bowl money and merchandises.

Pretty similar to pro leagues.