World Series 2009 Phillies vs Yankees

[marc]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Well,it seems like you've said it all.I was just too lazy to type it haha.This team wins despite Charlie,always has.But he did bring a championship here,something "The Big Mustache" across the street will NEVER DO so for that I'm grateful.Only thingto do now is wait for "Groundhog day" to occur.Eagles make the playoffs,Reid throws 60 passes and runs 3 times and the Birds lose to a team they could have trampled if they'd have run the ball.Oh,most likely in the NFC Title game.

I can only handle one rant per night, I'll save that one for another time.

[Qrusher14242]

How do you pitch to arod in that spot??? What a braindead manager. Way to loose the series Charlie!

[thomamon]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Sorry Commish but are you watching the same postseason as I am? He has been lights out this postseason unless I am dreaming.

I think he meant the World Series, not the post season.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Sorry Commish but are you watching the same postseason as I am? He has been lights out this postseason unless I am dreaming.

Meant to say World Series, not post-season.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by marc

For the series as a whole? Nah. For tonight? Absolutely, and he's botched so many games over the last few years I can't even count.

He also won them a ton of games including a world series last year by making every right move in the post season. Remember game 5 where he let Jenkins pinch hit despite everyone's ovious thoughts it would be dobbs, or when he stuck with moyer despite his playoffs last year and it payed off in the world series, etc etc etc, as a philly fan myself you can't have it both ways. In baseball if you win the manager is a genius and if you lose its because he's an idiot, still holds true to this day.

Before we even get into Game 4, he has to be the first manager in the history of baseball that is dumb enough to remove his most successful starting pitcher (statistically speaking) from the rotation for the playoffs.

I actually do agree with this as I would have liked to see Happ out there however when you look at it you can't say it was a bad decision due them not having a decent lefty other than eyre in the pen. You look at the 4 man rotation you have and it's Lee - no brainer he has to be in there, Pedro - you could have argued Happ could have taken his spot but Pedro pitched well so it was the right decision, Hamels - even with his struggles during the season you couldn't take hamels out of the rotation, no manager in baseball would have, and Blanton - Happ's only appearance compared to Blanton's 2 in the playoffs were similar, and to be honest blanton did his job and was effective last night. So in essence not starting happ wasn't the reason why they lost or necessarily a wrong decision.

His first mistake tonight was made before the first pitch was even thrown. After the loss in Game 3, it should have been an absolute no-brainer to start Cliff Lee. Relying on Joe Blanton to match-up with Sabathia was so foolish it's not even funny.

Blanton did effectively match-up with CC last night. He allowed 4 through 6 while CC allowed 3 through 6.2. So Blanton did his job. Not starting lee on 3 days rest is something that I agree with but at the same time maybe the guy truly doesnt feel comfortable doing it.

So the Phils overcome this horrible decision and tie the game late and have all the momentum. So in the most important inning of the series he throws a ridiculously shaky and rusty Lidge out there in a non-save situation.

He didn' have much choice at that point considering you need Durbin and Happ to be able to go multiple in extras if needed and the only option you really have other than him at that point would have been Eyre. Sure he melted down but if ruiz catches that foul tip into the glove on damon's ab with two outs than he gets out of the inning. Not saying he didn't melt down but the guy had looked dominant recently and it was the right move to make in the top of the 9th of a tie game with the pitchers spot due up.

Then to compound things, Lidge is CLEARLY in the midst of one of his classic meltdowns. Runners on 1st and 3rd and you know that any run that scores means Rivera in the 9th. Lidge's slider is taken away from him because of the runner on 3rd and Alex Rodfreakingriguez is up. Why on earth would you pitch to him??? Walk his ass and bring in someone else to pitch to Posada. Who the hell cares if a single now scores two runs instead of one, you're facing Rivera in the 9th either way.

You can't put two runners into scoring positon first during a tie game in the top of the 9th two outs when you have a chance to win it right after. Plus you load the bases and for a guy like lidge who relies on pitching out of the zone it wouldn't have been the righ call either. You had to pitch to A-Rod there.

Even something as simple as his decision on who to pinch hit in the 9th. Matt Stairs??? Really?? You're down THREE runs, Charlie. One swing of the bat and you're still down two buddy, so let's put someone up at the plate that has a prayer of getting on base. The odds of Stairs doing anything in that at-bat were slim to none. If the game was tied or even a one-run game, I could see it but down three, that was asinine.

Agreed but not charlie's fault that falls on Amaro Jr. for not getting a better more well rounded hitter suited to pinch lead off there. Dobbs has been awful so Stairs was the only real option.

He seems like a really nice man and the players clearly like him but his managerial decisions are pathetic, he's a god awful manager, there is no way around it.

And that's the reason why the guy is done at the end of the season. He is going to most likely retire at the end of the year after the media and fans drive him out. People were praising his ass last year and then recently for sticking with lidge etc. You can't have it both ways. The guy is a good manager and has a team that plays for him everyday, and been to two straight world series. The Phillies lost to a better team plain and simple. Manuel is the least of the team's worries going forward.

[Jason Moyer]

Courtesy of whatifsports:

2009 Phillies vs 1976 Phillies - 1&2 at the Vet, 3-5 at Citzens, 6&7 at the Vet (if necessary)

Game 1: 1976 wins 12-3
W - Carlton
L - Lee
HR - Utley, Allen, Maddox, Johnstone
Player of the game - Garry Maddox hits for the cycle

Game 2: 2009 wins 11-8
W - Walker
L - Kaat
HR - Rollins, Victorino 2, Howard, Ibanez, Werth, Feliz 2, Ruiz, Francisco, Schmidt 2, Luzinski
Player of the game - Shane Victorino scores 3 runs

Game 3: 2009 wins 5-2
W - Hamels
L - Lonborg
HR - Ibanez, Feliz
Player of the game - Pedro Feliz drives in 3 runs

Game 4: 1976 wins 7-2
W - Christensen
L - Blanton
HR - Maddox
Player of the game - Larry Christenson goes 6.0 innings for the win

Game 5: 1976 wins 5-3
W - Carlton
L - Lee
HR - Luzinski, Feliz, Mayberry
Player of the game - Dave Cash collects 4 hits

Game 6: 1976 wins 5-4
W - Garber
L - Park
HR - none
Player of the game - Greg Luzinski drives in game-winning run

1976 Phillies take the series 4 games to 2 (despite Feliz hitting 4 homeruns )

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by thomamon

I think he meant the World Series, not the post season.

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

Meant to say World Series, not post-season.

Ok Sorry! I had to relook at Arods post season stats because I was confused for awhile. Yes his World Series was pretty crappy until that point with 2 3 strikeout games.

[endgame]

Okay, I'm no big Phillies fan, but I was impressed by Lee's outing, no doubt. I probably fall more into the anti-Yankees, if just because they are so dominant; not just in the season, but in history. Maybe I'm an underdog fan, but that doesn't make sense when the Phillies are the defending champions. My frustration is still, as I stated in an earlier post, that Manuel gets his share of criticism, A-Rod gets his WS lack of performance critiques by broadcasters and journalists alike, while the Howard-friendly media, including the broadcasters, just let it go. For crying out loud, at least the NY Times gave it an appropriate mention: "If Howard whiffs three more times, he will tie Willie Wilson’s record for strikeouts in a single World Series, set in 1980." The guy's in a slump and the reason we're not seeing his heart is that his head is too busy trying to get it right, spit on his batting glove, hold the bat in challenge to the opposing pitcher, etc... In other words, doing all the traditional rituals that always succeeded in the past. That, in and of itself, is fine; probably a good thing.

But obviously there's mental game going on while he's in the process of execution that he's losing. IMHO, he's overthinking, overly conscious of a bad streak (has he even had one before?) and "pressing" as they say in the baseball world, or so I hear it called. If he relaxes, he'll come around. But it'll take Rollins to do the same. A home run can make a big difference IF there's a guy on base! Oh well, just trying to ask in my own wordy way, why's Howard getting the free pass? Maybe what he needs is a little get-on-his-case from somewhere to pull it out. Kid gloves obviously aren't cutting it.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by endgame

But obviously there's mental game going on while he's in the process of execution that he's losing. IMHO, he's overthinking, overly conscious of a bad streak (has he even had one before?) and "pressing" as they say in the baseball world, or so I hear it called. If he relaxes, he'll come around. But it'll take Rollins to do the same. A home run can make a big difference IF there's a guy on base! Oh well, just trying to ask in my own wordy way, why's Howard getting the free pass? Maybe what he needs is a little get-on-his-case from somewhere to pull it out. Kid gloves obviously aren't cutting it.

Well to answer your question yes Ryan Howard is a walking cold and hot streak that's just the type of player he is. Sure he will get you 40+ home runs a year but it's going to be filled with giant peaks and valleys along the way not to mention a ton of strike-outs. It's mirrored by his performance in the playoffs over the past 2 years. Last year he was in a huge slump the first two series and then broke out in the world series, this year the opposite holds true. It's not so much he's pressing or choking etc, that's just Ryan Howard.

I also don't think it's fair for the NY Times to compare Howard to A-Rod. Sure they both are among the top hitters in the league, but Howard isn't being paid 200+ millions dollars or held in regard as the best player of his era as A-Rod is. Because of all that A-Rod should have higher expectations, that's just the way it works.

Howard's job is to hit bombs not for average. Now granted while Howard has been awful the reason why the phillies lost the world series can be solely put on Rollins and Victorino at the top of the line-up. Utley and Werth have 6 homers between them, all of them being solo because these guys just can not get on base right now if their lives depended on it. Victorino especially, he's really looked like a high schooler up there with some of his abs. If those guys were able to get on and make those homers turn into 2 and 3 run blasts then the series would be 2-2 or even 3-1 right now in their favor. I honestly feel bad for Werth and Utley. They've carried this team so far and deserve a lot of credit.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by phightin

Howard's job is to hit bombs not for average. Now granted while Howard has been awful the reason why the phillies lost the world series can be solely put on Rollins and Victorino at the top of the line-up. Utley and Werth have 6 homers between them, all of them being solo because these guys just can not get on base right now if their lives depended on it. Victorino especially, he's really looked like a high schooler up there with some of his abs. If those guys were able to get on and make those homers turn into 2 and 3 run blasts then the series would be 2-2 or even 3-1 right now in their favor. I honestly feel bad for Werth and Utley. They've carried this team so far and deserve a lot of credit.

Good points, and thanks for the report on Howard. Just bad timing, I guess, eh? And you're right. One or two guys can't carry a team. That's an additional kind of pressure that just doesn't equate to a truism. Multiple players needs to be producing and the top two spots are pivotal for run support.

[marc]

Originally Posted by phightin

He also won them a ton of games including a world series last year by making every right move in the post season. Remember game 5 where he let Jenkins pinch hit despite everyone's ovious thoughts it would be dobbs, or when he stuck with moyer despite his playoffs last year and it payed off in the world series, etc etc etc, as a philly fan myself you can't have it both ways. In baseball if you win the manager is a genius and if you lose its because he's an idiot, still holds true to this day.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on the idea that he's won this franchise more games than he's blown. You're actually one of the few Phils fans that I know (and I know a lot) that believe this.

Originally Posted by phightin

Blanton did effectively match-up with CC last night. He allowed 4 through 6 while CC allowed 3 through 6.2. So Blanton did his job. Not starting lee on 3 days rest is something that I agree with but at the same time maybe the guy truly doesnt feel comfortable doing it.

6 innings and 4 runs was doing his job?? Yikes. that's not doing his job at all, that's a BAD outing. He put them in an early hole and then killed their momentum later in the game after they tied it by allowing 2 more runs. He definitely didn't do a good job last night and I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

Originally Posted by phightin

He didn' have much choice at that point considering you need Durbin and Happ to be able to go multiple in extras if needed and the only option you really have other than him at that point would have been Eyre. Sure he melted down but if ruiz catches that foul tip into the glove on damon's ab with two outs than he gets out of the inning. Not saying he didn't melt down but the guy had looked dominant recently and it was the right move to make in the top of the 9th of a tie game with the pitchers spot due up.

This is exactly my point. It was a MUST WIN game, Rivera wasn't going to pitch the ninth if it was tied, they needed to play to win the damn game (thanks Herm) and not play for extra innings. They had plenty of arms they could have used in that spot. You never ever play for extra innings when you have a pinch hitter and the top of your order coming up. The decision he made last nite is called playing not to lose.

Originally Posted by phightin

You can't put two runners into scoring positon first during a tie game in the top of the 9th two outs when you have a chance to win it right after. Plus you load the bases and for a guy like lidge who relies on pitching out of the zone it wouldn't have been the righ call either. You had to pitch to A-Rod there.

Once again, 1 or 2 runs wasn't going to make much difference because either way they were going to face a guy who truly is lights out in Mariano Rivera if they gave up a run. There were two outs, all they would have needed to do was get Posada out. Like I said, an absolutely asinine decision to pitch to him in that spot. The runner on third took away Lidge's BEST PITCH, he became even more useless once Damon stole 2nd and 3rd and was limited to his fastball which has sucked all year long.

[phightin]

I'm not gonna reiterate what I already said except that yes Blanton did his job last night. He kept his team in the game and gave them a chance to win through 6, and Lidge was the right decision at the time. Manuel is a good manager end of story. I think you're being an overly emotional philly fan and just not taking a step back. It hurts believe me, I've been through it all in my lifetime with Joe Carter the wasted 90s, the underachieving teams through 2000 etc. Maybe because they won last year I can take a step back and think clearly I dunno.

Anyway if they're going to have any chance of winning this series I think they not only have to win tonight but make a statement by putting up a ton of runs.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by phightin

Howard's job is to hit bombs not for average. Now granted while Howard has been awful the reason why the phillies lost the world series can be solely put on Rollins and Victorino at the top of the line-up. Utley and Werth have 6 homers between them, all of them being solo because these guys just can not get on base right now if their lives depended on it. Victorino especially, he's really looked like a high schooler up there with some of his abs. If those guys were able to get on and make those homers turn into 2 and 3 run blasts then the series would be 2-2 or even 3-1 right now in their favor. I honestly feel bad for Werth and Utley. They've carried this team so far and deserve a lot of credit.

Hate to quote myself but I think the top of the first just proved my point. Simple baseball. guys at the top of the line-up have to get on in front of the big bats.

[yankeesrule]

Hope AJ/Andy proves me wrong but I would have started Gaudin tonight and saved AJ for game 6 and then if needed CC in game 7. I just dont trust Pettite on short rest in game 6.

[Goody]

Yankees winning in New York would be better for their bottom line. I'm not saying they'll throw the game, but I'm sure that played into decisions on who to start and who to save.

[jaxmagicman]

Originally Posted by Autism Speaks

The Phillies are an embarassment.

Wow. Can my team be an embarassment? 2 World Series apperances in a row.

[Goody]

This thread is kinda dead, considering the 2 large markets (and the fact its the championship games) involved. I enjoyed the Twins/Tigers thread so much.

[yankeesrule]

Originally Posted by Goody

Yankees winning in New York would be better for their bottom line. I'm not saying they'll throw the game, but I'm sure that played into decisions on who to start and who to save.

WHAT???? How does that make any sense at all? Based on that ASSumption, they would have essentially wasted tonight(pitching gaudin as I was hoping) to have AJ pitching on full rest in game 6. Instead, they went all-in tonight with the hopes of closing out the phills and pitched AJ. Hopefuly it doesn't backfire to badly.

[MrLegend85]

Very frustrating start so far...not so much that AJ was pitching terribly, but also because the Phillies bats are coming to life, which is scary. Hopefully the Yankees can climb out of it. GO YANKEES!!!

[Goody]

Originally Posted by yankeesrule

WHAT???? How does that make any sense at all? Based on that ASSumption, they would have essentially wasted tonight(pitching gaudin as I was hoping) to have AJ pitching on full rest in game 6. Instead, they went all-in tonight with the hopes of closing out the phills and pitched AJ. Hopefuly it doesn't backfire to badly.

So what does capitalizing the letters ASS mean? You're calling me an ass? If so, don't hide behind clever text manipulation.