2011-12 Detroit Tigers Off-Season

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by RandyTiger

"Could be the worse of all time"... that's bullcrap. Teams in the early 1900's were a heck of a lot worse.

Seriously, the season hasn't even started, let alone gotten past April, so that makes me wonder of that nutjob has a crytal ball or time machine. Wonder if he's a politician or related to one, with the kind of bullcrap he's putting out.

Sure, none of the infielders are what you'd call top-notch fielders, but I don't expect them to be the Bad News Bears, either. They'll manage, one way or another.

This isn't about crystal balls. This is about the fact that rightward moves on the defensive spectrum very, very rarely work, and when they do, they invariably involve a player who was a top-notch fielder at his previous position. If Miggy is able to field over there at all, I'll be fairly surprised. I think it's pretty much out of the question that he'll be "average", since he hasn't even been "average" as a first baseman in the last 3 years.

I'm pretty sure the "worst of all time" designation was meant to mean relative to the league. Yes, there were some guys who committed lots of errors in the 19th century, but everyone else was committing them as well. This team won't be getting to a lot of baseballs that every other team gets to.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

This isn't about crystal balls. This is about the fact that rightward moves on the defensive spectrum very, very rarely work, and when they do, they invariably involve a player who was a top-notch fielder at his previous position. If Miggy is able to field over there at all, I'll be fairly surprised. I think it's pretty much out of the question that he'll be "average", since he hasn't even been "average" as a first baseman in the last 3 years.

I'm pretty sure the "worst of all time" designation was meant to mean relative to the league. Yes, there were some guys who committed lots of errors in the 19th century, but everyone else was committing them as well. This team won't be getting to a lot of baseballs that every other team gets to.

Is all this speculation about being the worst defense of all time based on the fact that "Miggy" is at 3B and Fielder is at 1B? Are the rest of their players that bad defensively? Considering their success last season, I'd have to say no, but I don't know much about the team.

If it is really just 1B and 3B, how often are there balls that will be out of these guys reach?!? I'd say an extreme estimate would be 40 or so. Sure that would have an outcome on a handful of games, but won't mean much during the regular season. Now, bad play in the postseason will kill them, but they should be fine during the season.

I've watched Fielder play all his MLB life thus far and while not good, he's capable of making a play (and then booting the next routine one). If Cabrera can play close to what he did in 2007 with the Marlins, I really don't see the Tigers being as bad as everyone is predicting. He's only 29 this season, so there's really no reason other than apathy (and maybe a few extra lbs) for him not to play to his previous levels.

[RandyTiger]

Yeah, I know he wasn't going to be back this year; my point is, he may not recover fully at all. Knee injuries are extremely tricky, particularly with the type Martinez has. Factor in his age... I'm not even sure he can bounce back enough to play a few more years.

His speed (which is already slow) will become like molasses in January, I think. He may be forced to retire, but we'll see what happens, I guess.

ConnChris, I don't understand how you can call the Tigers as having "truly horrible defense" when they haven't even played this year yet! Miggy just may surprise us by turning in semi-decent numbers, and these boys ain't the Bad News Bears. Give 'em a bloody chance before you pass judgment! We just never know who will have a career year at a position, and Young may yet be traded for a solid 2B.

As for Miggy's weight, he's reportedly dropped some pounds in the off-season, which would help his range, and he's publicly stated he wants to play 3B. Motivation can go a long way in things.

The first 40 games will tell how this defense will shape up, and if it doesn't work out, they'll make changes.

[RandyTiger]

Here's a good perspective on this, as Denny McLain said (reported by Terry Foster of the Detroit News):

"I'd rather have a guy who bats over .300 and drives in 100 runs who boots a few balls or doesn't get to some than a guy who hits .190 and is not contributing offensively in a major way. I would make that trade every day."

Very well stated.

[Left-handed Badger]

Detroit pitchers: Where did my defense go?

The thing is it isnt just Cabrera at 3B. You deal with one bad fielder. Raburn is horrible at 2B. Peralta catches what he gets to, but I've always felt he belongs at 3B from what I see of him. The OF corners arent too good either. Austin Jackson will have to channel Bugs Bunny and field 9 positions simultaneously.

Verlander should be alright. Fister and Procello will probably need psychiatric treatment however. I believe I'd have to make Santiago the regular 2B. It isnt like the rest of this lineup couldnt carry a .250 singles hitter in the 9 hole.

While, McLain has a point (though I cant help but wonder if it wasnt said out of favoritism for his old team). I do kind of wonder what Palmer and Cuellar thought of having their "worthless .190" hitter at SS all those years.

Detroit will make the playoffs (is their any other team in that division even average?) if they can even play .500 ball most likely. But, we will probably get a good idea how much defense matters at the end of the season. This team will stretch that to the max.

I have heard Cabrera is working out and losing weight. Unfortunately, I believe this will only get him to within shouting distance of the 2nd worst 3B.

Note: For full disclosure, I do think this team has a good chance to being the worst D team in the last 15-20 years. No joke. They remind me of the 1992 Mets in one way. I remember when they signed Bonilla and was gawking over how great their OF was gonna be with Coleman-Howard Johnson-Bonilla until they realized "Oh crap, who plays center?" 2nd Note: Course I believe Fielder-Cabrera-Young-whomever is way better than that Mets team, but both have the "this team looks great on paper, but the front office took no time to figure out the sum of the parts"

[RandyTiger]

I really don't see where Detroit has any options but to stick Miggy at third, unless you want Young to play everyday LF (which just might be worse than having Miggy at third!) Unless Dombrowski manages to pull off a trade of Young for a solid-fielding everyday 2B/3B, I concede they're limited in what they can do defensively. I still contend they'll do better than people expect. Miracles do happen, after all.

My option for 2B would be to put Santiago in at full-time too. In every simmed season I've played in OOTP, he's done reasonably well offensively - around .260, handful of homers, 40-60 ribbies. That's something you can live with if your other choices are Inge or Raburn.

I'd still trade Young for a decent 2B/3B to clear up this problem, but I'm not Dombrowski.

Of course, if I was, Inge and Raburn both would have been gone a long time ago. I suppose they're nice enough guys, but their performances... gah. I'd send a cow to the slaughterhouse if she gave milk the way those two play.

[Left-handed Badger]

Actually I might rather have Young in LF than Cabrera at 3B. Mainly because i consider 3B a bit more of a defensive position. But, it probably depends on whose pitching that day. And I am a more groundball oriented guy.

Regardless, it is a lineup that will strike terror in opposing pitchers offensively. And in their own pitchers defensively.

Personally, I think Cabrera will be Dean Palmer-like at 3B is all. (aka a .915-.920 %* with old man range.)

* Though the way they score errors nowadays, if you are an accurate thrower and never let the ball get between your legs you'll never make an error (and I've watched a couple of games where the ball DID go between an IF's legs and get called a hit)

[Sven Draconian]

I'm truly baffled with the worst-defense of all time talk.

Cabby is going to be all-time bad at 3rd base (probably). Fielder is bottom of the back at first base. However, those are the 2 positions I can live with piss poor defense, because they have the smallest effect.

I think LF or RF defense is more valuable than 3rd (ooo.... ahhhh). Crappy play in the OF can turn an out into a double. The amount of advances on outs, extra bases taken ect.. are difficult to measure, but obviously have a great effect.

A poor 3rd baseman is going to allow some extra singles, and a good chunk of those of the infield-variety. The volume is decent, but the damage is modest.

I'll take Cabrera not getting to a few singles over Delmon Young allowing doubles on routine fly balls.

Not to mention, the LF defense should be solid by MLB standards, assuming they stand pat and let Dirks/Thomas and Raburn take most of those innings. Boesch is adequate in right. Ramon is a good 2nd baseman. Peralta is solid (below average range, above average hands).

They'll probably carry Worth as a utility infielder/defensive sub for the late innings (or, Inge, in a similar capacity). With somebody going in for Boesch late as well.

I also expect Cabrera to play 100 games at 3rd base. He'll DH 20-30 and play first 20-30.

No question this is a bottom 3rd (or worse) team defensively, but I don't see the absolute butchery others are predicting.

[David Watts]

I think without Martinez this team was going to struggle to score runs. I wasn't too excited about the guys that were being mentioned as replacements prior to the Fielder deal. Can't wait for the season to start.

[cephasjames]

Veteran right-hander Penny to play in Japan | tigers.com: News

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Veteran right-hander Penny to play in Japan | tigers.com: News

Best news yet!

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Best news yet!

Let Japan have him!

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Let Japan have him!

Wonder how long before they want to send him back?

[RandyTiger]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Wonder how long before they want to send him back?

Or be a casus belli for another war between Japan and the USA!

[David Watts]

Do the Tigers still have enough money in the well to land Yoenis Cespedes?

[RandyTiger]

Yeah, they do - up to a point. I can't see them spending a lot of money on a prospect that plays very well in semi-pro ball and may not even pan out in the bigs. This isn't some Japanese superstar after all.

[magnet]

Cespedes is meeting with the Miami Marlins. Once he sees the CF fish thing, he'll be set on the Marlins.

[RandyTiger]

Tony Paul of the Detroit News offers up an intriguing opinion piece on Cespedes stating his reasons why the guy isn't worth the risk for the Tigers. Simply put, Cespedes doesn't have a proven track record and throwing big money at him is a risk.

[cephasjames]

I see his point, but apparently the scouts have seen something pretty good in him. Who knows how well anyone will play once signed to a team, even those with track records. It's a risk, but it could be a good risk.

[Syd Thrift]

The big thing about Cespedes or that future #5 starter who just signed for the $7M bonus for that matter is that as of July of this year everyone from the Yankees to the Mariners to the Pirates gets $2.9M a year and only $2.9M a year to bid on any and all international free agents. The market's about to close so I really, really expect teams to overpay for this guy. (and by the way, this MASSIVELY sucks for a team like the M's that have cultivated long-term relationships with scouts in other countries that has led to them bringing in several guys who have played a lot for the team in the past decade: Ichiro, Kazu Sasaki, King Felix, Yuni Betancort (granted that he sucks), Jose Lopez, and Michael Pineda.)