Jorge Posada: Hall of Fame?

[CommishJoe]

New York Yankees' Jorge Posada*retires with underrated career - Tom Verducci - SI.com

Here are a section from the above article talking about his statistics:

Posada had no speed and no natural receiving skills behind the plate, but he worked diligently to become a linchpin on championship teams. He apprenticed under Joe Girardi and didn't start 100 games behind the plate until he was 28 years old. Beginning that season, 2000, and through his last season, Posada was the best offensive catcher in baseball for more than a decade, racking up more home runs, RBI and runs than any other catcher.

Because of that late start and the shadows created by the brilliance of teammates, Posada leaves a legacy that is rather underrated. Among all catchers since 1901, Posada ranks third in walks (936), seventh in doubles (379), sixth in OPS (. 848), eighth in OBP (. 374) and home runs (275), ninth in slugging (. 474) and 11th in RBI (1065). He was named to five All-Star teams and won five Silver Sluggers.

Posada's OPS+ is 121. Only seven other catchers retired with a better OPS+ with at least 5,000 at-bats: Mike Piazza, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi, Gabby Hartnett and Yogi Berra. At the very least, Posada deserves strong Hall of Fame consideration.

I would say the above numbers merit his consideration. What do you think?

[Splitter24]

There's definitely a HoF argument for Posada. But there's also just as much of an argument (if not more) for Bill Freehan, Ted Simmons and Joe Torre (just counting him as a player). Freehan and Simmons were a small notch below Posada as hitters. But both were better defensive catchers than Posada (Simmons just a little bit, Freehan by a lot). Torre was about equal with Simmons defensively, but was a better hitter for his time than any of them. And of course was a catcher for a little over half his career.

Anyhow, if forced to rank them off the top of my head, I'd go:

Torre
Freehan
Posada
Simmons

P.S. - There's a sabermetric argument that Darrell Porter was as good as Freehan and Simmons, but nobody is going to be calling for him to be in the HoF.

[RchW]

Unfortunately for Posada his presence on such a dominant team may (and I think should) work against him. In other circumstances he may not have played as much or have had the opportunities to hit in so many leveraged situations. That being said his numbers are good and he did it over a long period. I'd like to see some more analysis before commenting further.

[Chicagofan76]

He's not 1st ballot, so we shall see if in the steroids era he gets in eventually and he caught 99 games in 1998 (26) and 109 games in 1999 (27). Previous 3 years played a total of 69 games.

[dsvitak]

I appreciate that Posada has played 125 games in the post season, and has been a member of the Yankees for a long time.

But....

The dude hit .248 in the playoffs, over 492 at bats.

So. You just cannot give him any props or benefit for being in the playoffs.

Adjusted OPS for his career is 121. This is OK, even good, but not HoF good.

Lifetime .273 hitter. Some pop, not much. and much of that was the occasional fly ball down the (short) right field line in Yankee stadium. I believe the old stadium was 296' down the line.

He sure as hell doesn't get in for his defense. We'll just leave it at that.

1664 hits? No points for longevity.

So..no points for peak performance, no MVP's, only two top 10's finishes, no points for longevity.

Just what parameters are you'all using to even remotely justify his entrance into the Hall of Fame?

Look at Ted Simmons, and tell me who had the better career.

[Goody]

Nope. Most blatant example of a good player on a team that carried his career. There's lots of good players out there. Less than 5% of are on the Yankees in any given year. The Yankees have a high % of the BEST players. They have the most media coverage.

If Posada was drafted by the Royals, went to the Indians, then was picked up by the Yankees for 4 years...we wouldn't even be having this discussion even without considering numbers. But consider numbers too...and he'd have less. Less men on base when he's up. More pitching around....etc etc.

[Trick McSorley]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

I would say the above numbers merit his consideration. What do you think?

12th best WAR for a catcher since 1901 gets my vote, but Ted Simmons is a superior catcher who isn't in yet, so Posada needs to get in line.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

Nope. Most blatant example of a good player on a team that carried his career. There's lots of good players out there. Less than 5% of are on the Yankees in any given year. The Yankees have a high % of the BEST players. They have the most media coverage.

If Posada was drafted by the Royals, went to the Indians, then was picked up by the Yankees for 4 years...we wouldn't even be having this discussion even without considering numbers. But consider numbers too...and he'd have less. Less men on base when he's up. More pitching around....etc etc.

Actually, a player like Posada would have been THE franchise player if he played for teams like the Royals or the Indians. That probably would have boosted his Hall of Fame chances. With the Yankees, hes' never the best player on the team.

[Goody]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Actually, a player like Posada would have been THE franchise player if he played for teams like the Royals or the Indians. That probably would have boosted his Hall of Fame chances. With the Yankees, hes' never the best player on the team.

Complete hogwash.

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I appreciate that Posada has played 125 games in the post season, and has been a member of the Yankees for a long time.

But....

The dude hit .248 in the playoffs, over 492 at bats.

So. You just cannot give him any props or benefit for being in the playoffs.

Adjusted OPS for his career is 121. This is OK, even good, but not HoF good.

Lifetime .273 hitter. Some pop, not much. and much of that was the occasional fly ball down the (short) right field line in Yankee stadium. I believe the old stadium was 296' down the line.

He sure as hell doesn't get in for his defense. We'll just leave it at that.

1664 hits? No points for longevity.

So..no points for peak performance, no MVP's, only two top 10's finishes, no points for longevity.

Just what parameters are you'all using to even remotely justify his entrance into the Hall of Fame?

Look at Ted Simmons, and tell me who had the better career.

Just curious, how high of an OPS+ does a catcher have to have for him to be HoF-worthy in your eyes? The only retired catchers that I can think of that have a higher OPS+ than Posada are Piazza and Torre (both of whom I'm guessing are going to end up in the HoF one way or the other). Unless you want to count guys like Dick Dietz or something.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Goody

Complete hogwash.

It's a fact that although the Yankees have by far the most championships, they have way fewer Hall of Famers than the Giants and the Cardinals.

It's much easier to make a case for anti-Yankees bias instead of a pro-Yankees bias. Kirby Puckett would have a way harder time getting into the Hall of Fame if he was a Yankee.

[reds1869]

To borrow a phrase from one of my favorite baseball writers: Posada belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but probably not in the Hall of Fame. That said I wouldn't be at all upset if he got in; there are less deserving players in the Hall already.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

Just curious, how high of an OPS+ does a catcher have to have for him to be HoF-worthy in your eyes? The only retired catchers that I can think of that have a higher OPS+ than Posada are Piazza and Torre (both of whom I'm guessing are going to end up in the HoF one way or the other). Unless you want to count guys like Dick Dietz or something.

I am ok with an OPS of 121 getting into the HoF, if it is Ted Simmons with 2500 hits.

I am decidedly not ok with Posada, who had just 1600 hits.

Bill James had an excellent book on the Hall of Fame, and I own it, and have read it a couple of times.

He talks about peak performance, and longevity as the two main factors for consideration.

Kirby Puckett, and Ichiro Suzuki are classic production guys.....and throw Ralph Kiner in here too. Excellent production, for a modest number of years. Sandy Koufax is the best pitching example.

Longevity guys are Robin Yount, Eddie Murray, Harold Baines...with Baines having almost 600 MORE RBI than Posada. 600 MORE. For Baines.

The voters rejected the case for Baines, despite his 1678 RBI...but how can they make the case for Posada, who had barely a thousand, and hit .273 lifetime???

In order for Posada to be considered for the HoF, then, it must be either due to his extraordinary defense, or his extremely high PEAK performance.

I see nothing statistically that would warrant this. He knocked in 100 RBI the same number of times as Ryan Sandberg - ONE.

His total bases, for his career, is almost EXACTLY the same as Benito Santiago. No one is beating the drum for Benito to go into the Hall of Fame..and he was a better catcher, who could run, had 150 more hits, and won four gold gloves.

I am not suggesting equivalency between Santiago and Posada..clearly, but ONLY due to a higher walk rate, and the short porch in RF. Posada is a better player. But...low peak value, low longevity value, and poor defense just ain't gonna get it done.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I am not suggesting equivalency between Santiago and Posada..clearly, but ONLY due to a higher walk rate, and the short porch in RF. Posada is a better player. But...low peak value, low longevity value, and poor defense just ain't gonna get it done.

Even if ONLY higher walk rate and short porch in RF results in the huge difference in stats, it's still a huge difference in stats. The career win value of Santiago is only half that Posada. I don't see how Santiago is relevant to Posada's chance into the Hall. Freehan and Simmons are much more reasonable comparisons.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Even if ONLY higher walk rate and short porch in RF results in the huge difference in stats, it's still a huge difference in stats. The career win value of Santiago is only half that Posada. I don't see how Santiago is relevant to Posada's chance into the Hall. Freehan and Simmons are much more reasonable comparisons.

At the risk of repeating myself, I stated that Posada is a better player. Actually, not by a hell of a lot, either, if you value defense at the catcher position.

But...Posada had exactly 2 total bases more than Santiago. They are right next to each other on the all time chart.

This was simply to illustrate that Posada is decidedly not a longevity-type HoF candidate, given the extremely modest total base ... totals.

We have already determined that the peak performance for Posada isn't remotely near HoF standards either.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

At the risk of repeating myself, I stated that Posada is a better player. Actually, not by a hell of a lot, either, if you value defense at the catcher position.

But...Posada had exactly 2 total bases more than Santiago. They are right next to each other on the all time chart.

This was simply to illustrate that Posada is decidedly not a longevity-type HoF candidate, given the extremely modest total base ... totals.

We have already determined that the peak performance for Posada isn't remotely near HoF standards either.

By a hell lot. As I said, Posada is twice the player. At this day and age, you are still using total base as an important measure? And I don't know who already determined the criteria for catcher peak performances with you. You said that, but you didn't show any work. Nobody else really confirmed your work.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

The voters rejected the case for Baines, despite his 1678 RBI...but how can they make the case for Posada, who had barely a thousand, and hit .273 lifetime???

You're comparing an outfielder/DH to a catcher. A better comparison would be Torre or Simmons or someone. Anyway, going by B-R Baines best season was 91 when he was worth 3.7 WAR, and he had 37 even career. Posada had 6 seasons better than that, peaked at 6.1 in 03, and accumulated 44.7 over his career in far fewer games (1829 vs 2830).

Peak/career WAR for some catchers:

Lance Parrish 5.1/35.7
HOF Gabby Hartnett 5.2/50.3
Javy Lopez 6.6/27.9
HOF Gary Carter 7.8/66.3 (good lord he was a beast from 77-85)
HOF Bill Dickey 6.3/54.4
Bill Freehan 7.0/43.3
Benito Santiago 2.9/23.8
HOF Carlton Fisk 7.1/67.3
HOF Ernie Lombardi 5.3/39.0
Jason Varitek 4.1/23.1
Mike Lieberthal 3.3/15.3
Ivan Rodriguez 6.6/67.3
Ted Simmons 6.3/50.4
Joe Torre 6.4 (as a catcher)/55.6
Mickey Tettleton 5.5/27.8
Jason Kendall 5.7/37.7
Mike Piazza 9.3/59.1
Charles Johnson 4.4/22.0

Best catcher of his era? Nope. That would be I-Rod and Piazza by a mile.
Will he be the best eligible catcher? Torre and Simmons have him beat on peak and longevity.

[cheech411]

munson IS A HOFER !! big sox fan seen both play munson @ fisk both GREAT BENCH ALSO IN 70'S

[TribeFanInNC]

Leaving Harold Baines comparisons aside, the point is pretty well made by the OP. The fact is that he is top 10 all-time in many offensive categories for a catcher, a 5-time all star, 5-time silver slugger, twice was top-6 MVP as a catcher, and played on a historic Yankees teams.

One thing that often gets overlooked, and potentially hurts him, was his ability to take a walk. His career hit total is low because he has almost 1000 walks. If he had 2000 hits and 600 walks, he probably gets in with little doubt. I don't know where .374 ranks for career OBP for catchers, but I imagine it's pretty good.

I'm not much of a Yankee apologist, but in this case I think Posada certainly deserves strong consideration.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

You're comparing an outfielder/DH to a catcher. A better comparison would be Torre or Simmons or someone.

I dont get why people are comparing Posada to Baines.... I love Baines but he will probably never make it into the HOF.
I couldn't find where Posada ranks all time for C on baseball ref or anywhere for that matter.
Even comparing him to Torre is unfair Torre caught 903 games Posada 1574 Posada fld pct .992 Torre .990 (different era of course) Torre was a good hitter for his era and had 1 great season. Kinda surprised Simmons isn't in based on his stats and longevity.