Tanaka: So far, so good

[Caporegime]

Yeah, I know it's still too early to break out the party favors and declare Masahiro Tanaka the nastiest thing out of Japan since cosplay Bukkake hit the porn scene, but so far he's been everything the scouts said he'd be...and more. His location and control have been nigh perfect and his splitter has been bafflingly untouchable. This guy is the real deal.

My only concern is about his long-term health and durability. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but chronic arm problems usually seem like just a question of "when" not "if" for pitchers who rely as heavily as the splitter as Tanaka does. In fact, I can't remember the last time I've seen a pitcher throw as many splitters as he does. He'll throw it to anyone at anytime. I keep thinking of all those pitchers who adopted the splitter after Roger Craig made it the sexy pitch of the '80's, and who ended up with bum arms as a result.

Yeah, I know guys like David Cone & Roger Clemens threw splitters for many years without any obvious detrimental effects on their health. However, it didn't seem like they threw as high a percentage of splits as Tanaka does. The splitter, for example, was usually Cone's go-to pitch when he was either 0-2, 1-2, or 2-2 against left-handed hitters. I don't remember seeing him throw it much against right-handed hitters, or early in the count, or on 3-2 etc.

Anyway, I hope this kid has a rotator cuff made of steel, because he's really entertaining to watch.

[paul.m.w.]

Yeah watched tanaka play for the champion golden eagles last season, he was dominant. Control and that 'it' pitch.
Hope he's more like Darvish from Japan than Matsuzaka...

[Jason Moyer]

Wasn't the splitter basically reintroduced in the 80's because it gave kids a breaking pitch that didn't put wear on their arms? I can't imagine why it would do any more damage to the shoulder than a fastball does, it's basically the same pitch with a different grip.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Wasn't the splitter basically reintroduced in the 80's because it gave kids a breaking pitch that didn't put wear on their arms? I can't imagine why it would do any more damage to the shoulder than a fastball does, it's basically the same pitch with a different grip.

Yes, I was going to ask Capo why he believes the splitter to be harmful.

As far as Tanaka goes, I'm still holding back because I don't want to fall into the Dice-K trap. He sure looks good right now but it's a long season.

But wow. If he is for real, remember that he's only 25 years old.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Wasn't the splitter basically reintroduced in the 80's because it gave kids a breaking pitch that didn't put wear on their arms? I can't imagine why it would do any more damage to the shoulder than a fastball does, it's basically the same pitch with a different grip.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Yes, I was going to ask Capo why he believes the splitter to be harmful

Sorry guys for the late reply. I've been busy working & simming (I wish I could sim working).

I just assumed that it was common knowledge that over the past 10-15 years a lot of organizations have shied away from teaching young pitchers the splitter over concerns for their long-term elbow & shoulder health & conditioning.

Here's an article written on the subject from 2011 from the NY Times that discusses it in depth and far better than I ever could.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/sp...anted=all&_r=0

From the article:

If many pitching coaches and executives across the league have their way, it is also a pitch that is seeing its last days. Philadelphia’s Roy Halladay, the Angels’ Dan Haren and Boston’s Jonathan Papelbon are among the pitchers who still have it in their arsenals, but concerns about the strain it can put on a pitcher’s arm are prompting some teams to ban their prospects from throwing it.

[hfield007]

...I hope the splitter is falling outta favor.

I can't hit that pitch for beans in MLB the Show.

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by hfield007

...I hope the splitter is falling outta favor.

I can't hit that pitch for beans in MLB the Show.

I'll be whiffing on a few splitters myself on May 6th when 14 is finally released for the PS4. I can't wait.

I usually play RTTS exclusively as a pitcher, but this year I think I'll try my hand as a position player with a long, scraggly hipster beard (gotta take advantage of that PS4 hardware) .

[Caporegime]

Well, Tanaka passed his first big test as a Yankee. He beat the Sox at Fenway in convincing fashion, allowing just two earned runs (albeit, two bombs) over seven innings while whiffing seven.

You never know what to expect from a new pitcher (especially one from overseas) when they're first thrust into the Yankees-Red Sox cauldron. I don't know if there are any rivalries as intense as this one is in the ***, but Tanaka handled his Fenway debut like he's handled everything else so far, smoothly. Although, the camera did catch him mumbling to himself on several occasions. It looked like a pretty intense exchange he was having with himself as well.

At any rate, as long as he keeps pitching great, and Girardi keeps Tanaka's imaginary friend away from sharp objects, I'm sure everything will be just fine.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Sorry guys for the late reply. I've been busy working & simming (I wish I could sim working).

I just assumed that it was common knowledge that over the past 10-15 years a lot of organizations have shied away from teaching young pitchers the splitter over concerns for their long-term elbow & shoulder health & conditioning.

Here's an article written on the subject from 2011 from the NY Times that discusses it in depth and far better than I ever could.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/sp...anted=all&_r=0

From the article:

Sorry but that is not correct, someone wanted to create a story

The splitter is held like a fastball, thrown like a fastball with no wrist snap

Clemens,Morris,Stewart...how many injuries between them?
The guys who have been injured, are in the horrible reliever position, where heavy start and stops will blow your arm out more than anything, it's almost like a car engine, you cruise the highway at 65 mph it will last, you go 100 mph 5 blocks and stop, then do the same going back, short shelf life

One can throw 200 fastballs and be fine unless there is a propensity for you to not be able to throw over and over again...and some P's are that way, they have a short amount of pitches in them or bad technique, like Strasburg

Bad arm slots and mechanics will kill any P, but a Splitter? No...not anymore than a 4 seamer,sinker, forkball, any variation of change up or 2 seamer.

I have to say Maddon was quoted out of context and Cooper is the only guy making sense

and more guys should follow screwballer Mike Marshall's advice

Marshall teaches and advocates a pitching method he developed that he "believes could completely eradicate pitching-arm injuries."He wants pitchers to have a smooth transition. To pitch the arm has to externally rotate (hand lays back) before the ball accelerates. With traditional pitchers the thrower often lifts his elbow before his hand (also called scapula loading); this leads to the ball coming up late and the arm to externally rotate late. The elbow will be accelerated forward while the hand still goes backward, which creates enormous stress on the arm.

Marshall instead wants pitchers to externally rotate early as they swing their arm up. That means the pitcher will lift the hand before the elbow, so that the wrist faces away from the body and up, the hand is above the elbow when the front foot touches the ground, which leads to a smooth transition without a "forearm bounce," as Marshall calls it (Marshall believes this causes UCL injuries, which require Tommy John surgery). He wants to first lay back the forearm and then accelerate by rotating the body instead of bending over, in order to protect the elbow against injury.

Walter Johnson and Bob Feller pitched like stated above

I teach many kids in my youth baseball league the splitter, the cutter and the circle change as well as Marshall's method above. The hell with sliders and curves

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by Carlton

Sorry but that is not correct, someone wanted to create a story

The splitter is held like a fastball, thrown like a fastball with no wrist snap

Clemens,Morris,Stewart...how many injuries between them?
The guys who have been injured, are in the horrible reliever position, where heavy start and stops will blow your arm out more than anything, it's almost like a car engine, you cruise the highway at 65 mph it will last, you go 100 mph 5 blocks and stop, then do the same going back, short shelf life

One can throw 200 fastballs and be fine unless there is a propensity for you to not be able to throw over and over again...and some P's are that way, they have a short amount of pitches in them or bad technique, like Strasburg

Bad arm slots and mechanics will kill any P, but a Splitter? No...not anymore than a 4 seamer,sinker, forkball, any variation of change up or 2 seamer.

I have to say Maddon was quoted out of context and Cooper is the only guy making sense

and more guys should follow screwballer Mike Marshall's advice

Marshall teaches and advocates a pitching method he developed that he "believes could completely eradicate pitching-arm injuries."He wants pitchers to have a smooth transition. To pitch the arm has to externally rotate (hand lays back) before the ball accelerates. With traditional pitchers the thrower often lifts his elbow before his hand (also called scapula loading); this leads to the ball coming up late and the arm to externally rotate late. The elbow will be accelerated forward while the hand still goes backward, which creates enormous stress on the arm.

Marshall instead wants pitchers to externally rotate early as they swing their arm up. That means the pitcher will lift the hand before the elbow, so that the wrist faces away from the body and up, the hand is above the elbow when the front foot touches the ground, which leads to a smooth transition without a "forearm bounce," as Marshall calls it (Marshall believes this causes UCL injuries, which require Tommy John surgery). He wants to first lay back the forearm and then accelerate by rotating the body instead of bending over, in order to protect the elbow against injury.

Walter Johnson and Bob Feller pitched like stated above

I teach many kids in my youth baseball league the splitter, the cutter and the circle change as well as Marshall's method above. The hell with sliders and curves

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a lot of bad info out there about this. I don't know. It's just what I've read over & over again for the past 10 years or so whenever the subject is discussed. However, sports media outlets in particular tend to be a little careless when presenting information of this sort, so I wouldn't at all be surprised by any inaccuracies or exaggerated conclusions.

Well, as far as Tanaka is concerned, we shall see.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Carlton

Sorry but that is not correct, someone wanted to create a story

The splitter is held like a fastball, thrown like a fastball with no wrist snap

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a lot of bad info out there about this. I don't know. It's just what I've read over & over again for the past 10 years or so whenever the subject is discussed. However, sports media outlets in particular tend to be a little careless when presenting information of this sort, so I wouldn't at all be surprised by any inaccuracies or exaggerated conclusions.

Good discussion. Just do one thing. Hold up one of your hands and place the fingers of your other hand on the forearm of your upraised arm, just below the elbow. Now, spread the index and middle fingers of your hand, the one you are holding up, wide apart as if you are holding a baseball with a splitter grip. Feel the tension in your forearm? You don't feel that with a fastball grip. That bit of an experiment may lend some credence to the idea of how the splitter can "really put a lot of pressure on the elbow."

[Carlton]

Deja Bru

I don't feel anything, one must take into account hand size. Large hand sizes have no issue with this pitch, plus it is the same type of width used in bowling, I don't hear of many PBA pros getting elbow and shoulder surgery. You 'might' get carpal tunnel but pitchers really need to strengthen their forearms, most seem to work on shoulders and biceps and some work their legs but many ignore their hips and forearms.

And bad mechanics will blow your elbow and shoulder out, as stated by iron man reliever Mike Marshall in my first post, than any hand grip

I mean, the P's I mentioned and even average hand size guy Greg Maddux who is the poster boy for arm health threw a splitter. I'd love to ask him about this pitch.

Here is the grip pros use, but kids should be higher up near the seams

[Déjà Bru]

You don't feel the muscles in your upper forearm tense when you spread those fingers far apart? Maybe you're right about the hand size aspect, although mine are not dainty.

One thing that occurs to me is, if the pitch was that destructive, pitching coaches, managers, and GM's would be suppressing it at all costs given how they baby pitchers these days, especially young ones. Instead, the splitter seems to be the pitch of this decade.

[sandman2575]

Tanaka has been a lot of fun to watch. That splitter of his seems to be baffling an awful lot of hitters. But -- and this may be purely subjective -- it seems to me that when guys have connected with his pitches (esp. some hanging sliders), they have hit the ball HARD. Melky, Papi, Napoli -- their HRs were like gunshots off the bat. All solo shots too, so maybe a little good luck has been on his side as well. (Haven't looked into his ERA vs. xERA, but the latter's gotta be higher.)

The "Darvish or Matsuzaka?" spectrum seems right to me -- he sure looks more like the former, but there's always the possibility that he could be the latter (although Dice-K never had good control, so Tanaka's immediately more promising on that front.)

One notes too that the Yanks' past experiments with highly touted, highly paid Japanese SP imports haven't exactly panned out -- namely Irabu and Igawa.

Originally Posted by Caporegime

I'll be whiffing on a few splitters myself on May 6th when 14 is finally released for the PS4. I can't wait.

I am not a console gamer, but I am seriously considering buying a PS4 just for this game. It looks absolutely amazing. Of course, free time to play OOTP and MLB the Game? Where's that gonna come from?

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

One notes too that the Yanks' past experiments with highly touted, highly paid Japanese SP imports haven't exactly panned out -- namely Irabu and Igawa.

Yes, we are certainly "due" on that score!