Baseball fans - The most important issue of the modern game is being addressed

rudel.dietrich · 09-23-2014, 11:54 AM

MLB has formed a committee to study the length of game issue. Maybe others do not see it as I do. But this issue is the single biggest threat to the health and growth of the sport. Of the major sports, baseball has the oldest fan base. On the regional level, TV ratings and attendance is fantastic but the age issue is alarming.
The current baseball demographic works right now since it is still a viable age market and is currently the wealthiest demographic. But you never want your main demographic to fade away and not be able to replace it. And currently baseball will not be able to do that based on market data and research.

Say what you will about generation Y (I am at the very beginning of Gen Y with a birth year in 84) and their attention span. But there is no good argument that baseball games have have gotten 29 minutes longer since 1981.
I see no reason why NL games cannot be 2 hr 30 min and AL games 2 hr 35 min

This may not seem like a big step from the current pace of 3 hr 1 min for the NL and 3 hr 5 min for the AL but with 5 games a week that is 2.5 hours a week saved for the fan. You are able to digest 5 games in the time that it used to take you to watch 4.

I am seeing some push back from older fans who say that changes are unneeded and that the younger group of fans just lacks the appreciation and attention span for baseball. I could not disagree with this more.
Younger fans are not dissatisfied with the type of action that you get in baseball vs basketball/hockey/soccer/football. The issue is that they would like the actual time spent playing the game be compressed with less dead time between those action spots.

I am glad to see baseball addressing this issue and I hope that the committee not only goes for the easy fixes but adopts some more radical approaches.

It is probably controversial, but I would be very supportive of limiting the amount of times a pitcher can throw to a base to hold on a runner. This would speed up the game and lead to more stolen bases which are among the more exciting plays in baseball. I would be supportive of limiting the number of times a team can change pitchers (unless there is an injury)
There are probably other radical ideas I am missing and that is completely leaving out the easy ideas like enforcing a pitch clock and making a batter stay in the batters box for the duration of a PA.
Make the pitcher deliver the ball in a timely manner while simultaneously making the batter be in the box and ready to crevice the pitch. Have a penalty of a strike imposed on the batter for leaving the confines of the batters box.
Add a spot on all 30 teams for an extra bat boy to make sure that in the event of a broken bat that a player receives a new bat immediately and does not need to apply pine tar/boning/adjusting grip tape etc.
Make sure that the game does not need to be paused for the umpire to receive new baseballs.

I don't want to ramble on any further. My feelings on this should be clear enough. I really hope this committee makes effective and smart changes and I am excited that baseball realizes that this is an issue and is moving to address it.

David Watts · 09-23-2014, 02:17 PM

I'm anxious to see what this committee comes up with.

Lafayette53 · 09-23-2014, 02:48 PM

I hope they focus on addressing the pace of play rather than the length of the game itself per say. I don't actually care how long a game goes generally, but seeing batters adjust their gloves after every pitch can be grating. Make the pitcher deliver the ball more promptly and stopping batters from doing tai chi in between pitches would solve most of my complaints.

Maybe limit throwing over if you want to increase the importance of the running game, but baseball fans tend to be pretty conservative about rule changes that effect statistical output these days so...

For the record I'm a younger fan (relative to the forum poll I saw anyway) with a terrible attention span, but I do love the game as is. I just think baseball could afford to pick up the pace a bit.

Le Grande Orange · 09-23-2014, 03:39 PM

If one looks at the historical game length data, one of the main contributors to the increase in game lengths is television. I'm not sure how one deals with that since advertising time is what pays for those expensive broadcast contracts. Cutting slots for ads doesn't seem likely, though the prevalence of various 'virtual' ads can perhaps yield some help.

The independent Atlantic League this season experimented with a host of rules to try and speed up the game. You can read about its efforts here. I expect the results will be examined by various leagues, including MLB.

ETA: Below is a graph I put together a couple of years ago. It shows the average length in minutes of a normal 8½-9 inning (51-54 outs) MLB game from 1920-2011, as calculated from Retrosheet game logs.

MorseMoose · 09-23-2014, 06:35 PM

Definitely television. There's plenty of ad space on the screen, cut a commercial or two and throw in some ads on the top bar/bottom bar. Bring in sponsors for the Scoreboards we see on TV with a logo next to it.

Sponsor every little thing to death, "It's the FattyBurger 3rd inning; if the pitcher strikes out the side, John Smith of Fairview wins a years worth of FattyBurgers!" Welcome to the Seventh Inning Stretch sponsored by 2D Gyms - Get a flat stomach at 2D Gyms!"

rudel.dietrich · 09-23-2014, 07:18 PM

Put logos on uniforms. That is one of the easiest fixes to the television issue. You could cut out two commercials per inning and save 27 minutes per game that way.

And advertising on uniforms is a great deal for teams and those who do the advertising since it is permanent and also is much cheaper from a marketing standpoint.

The NBA might become the first major NA league to adopt logos on uniforms and I hope they use that to drop a few commercials from the broadcast and cut the game length down a further 15-20 minutes.

MorseMoose · 09-23-2014, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Put logos on uniforms. That is one of the easiest fixes to the television issue. You could cut out two commercials per inning and save 27 minutes per game that way.

And advertising on uniforms is a great deal for teams and those who do the advertising since it is permanent and also is much cheaper from a marketing standpoint.

The NBA might become the first major NA league to adopt logos on uniforms and I hope they use that to drop a few commercials from the broadcast and cut the game length down a further 15-20 minutes.

That too, as long as they don't look like the WNBA logos. If you're going to do logos on a uni, put them unobtrusively on the sleeve or below the numbers on the back.

rudel.dietrich · 09-23-2014, 07:22 PM

I also forgot, if baseballs age problem continues, then you could see an era of the game where the quality of play drops.

If you have talented athletes making youth sports decisions and they do not like baseball then they will choose football, basketball or soccer to continue playing past the HS level.
The smaller the talent pool, the worse play will become.

MLB has already lost blacks. Baseball used to be the premier sport of the black athlete until the late 70s and in the modern era it has lost to football and basketball.

The next demographic they could lose would be young Hispanics who have a culture of youth soccer and are increasingly being represented in football at the NCAA and NFL level.

RchW · 09-23-2014, 07:29 PM

Nice post but making broad assumptions about what "older" fans opinions are on this subject was unnecessary and very likely wrong. I'd be interested in your definition of "older". Arbitrary age ranges are typically very poor groupings to put people into. Socio-economic and employment status is far more predictive than age.

RchW · 09-23-2014, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

Definitely television. There's plenty of ad space on the screen, cut a commercial or two and throw in some ads on the top bar/bottom bar. Bring in sponsors for the Scoreboards we see on TV with a logo next to it.

Sponsor every little thing to death, "It's the FattyBurger 3rd inning; if the pitcher strikes out the side, John Smith of Fairview wins a years worth of FattyBurgers!" Welcome to the Seventh Inning Stretch sponsored by 2D Gyms - Get a flat stomach at 2D Gyms!"

See that's bs; I already pay for the MLB package, so if anything I should have an ad free screen. That has been the quid pro quo for decades. Ad free for those who pay!

rudel.dietrich · 09-23-2014, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Nice post but making broad assumptions about what "older" fans opinions are on this subject was unnecessary and very likely wrong. I'd be interested in your definition of "older". Arbitrary age ranges are typically very poor groupings to put people into. Socio-economic and employment status is far more predictive than age.

Sorry, I did not mean to generalize. I was going off what I saw on other message boards and in some comments in the article I read.

And by 'older' I was referring to the average MLB fan age of 52.
My comments were that I saw a lot of push back from that age group who thought that baseball did not have an issue with length of games.
I don't think it was a well understood issue and I would beg to differ that it is indeed the largest issue facing the game today, even more so than PED use or any other issue.

MorseMoose · 09-23-2014, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

See that's bs; I already pay for the MLB package, so if anything I should have an ad free screen. That has been the quid pro quo for decades. Ad free for those who pay!

Oh, heck yeah!

MLB needs to make MLB.tv (or whatever it's called nowadays) available without blackout restrictions completely ad-free. But if your'e watching it elsewhere, ****'em with ads!!

RchW · 09-23-2014, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Sorry, I did not mean to generalize. I was going off what I saw on other message boards and in some comments in the article I read.

And by 'older' I was referring to the average MLB fan age of 52.
My comments were that I saw a lot of push back from that age group who thought that baseball did not have an issue with length of games.
I don't think it was a well understood issue and I would beg to differ that it is indeed the largest issue facing the game today, even more so than PED use or any other issue.

Fair enough. I'm pushing 60 and still yell at batters to get in the box at games. Once in a minor league game I yelled at the umpire for not enforcing the rules and he threatened to have me ejected. I moved further back and noticed the pace of play improved.

Where did you get the average age from? I don't believe it. That may be true at spring training but regular season games are a different story. Most parks have created large licenced standing room areas that attract hordes of young people. Baseball tickets are one of the few remaining affordable events that young singles and young families can go to these days. We go to 20-30 games a year and our unscientific poll both inside and outside stadiums suggest a much younger (mid 40's) crowd in general. Next time you see a Mariners home game check out the crowd. We were there last year with a crowd (34,792) that may have averaged less than 40 years of age.

Lukas Berger · 09-23-2014, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

...Where did you get the average age from? I don't believe it. ...

Yeah, there's no way in the world that average age is right.

Lafayette53 · 09-23-2014, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Yeah, there's no way in the world that average age is right.

Its the average World Series viewer's age I believe.

Lafayette53 · 09-23-2014, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafayette53

Its the average World Series viewer's age I believe.

Television to be clear. Keep in mind that the average viewer ages for all the major sports and just about all TV programs in general are going way up. Lots of people these days are cordless, myself included.

MorseMoose · 09-23-2014, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Fair enough. I'm pushing 60 and still yell at batters to get in the box at games. Once in a minor league game I yelled at the umpire for not enforcing the rules and he threatened to have me ejected. I moved further back and noticed the pace of play improved.

Where did you get the average age from? I don't believe it. That may be true at spring training but regular season games are a different story. Most parks have created large licenced standing room areas that attract hordes of young people. Baseball tickets are one of the few remaining affordable events that young singles and young families can go to these days. We go to 20-30 games a year and our unscientific poll both inside and outside stadiums suggest a much younger (mid 40's) crowd in general. Next time you see a Mariners home game check out the crowd. We were there last year with a crowd (34,792) that may have averaged less than 40 years of age.

Twins games definitely skew younger. The last several games I've been at (August and September games) have been party atmosphere. Definitely not old folk.

Lukas Berger · 09-23-2014, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafayette53

Its the average World Series viewer's age I believe.

That, I believe.

You get a ton of older non-baseball fans who watch the World Series because they always have.

My mother for example, who doesn't really care about baseball at all and doesn't know any of the players other than maybe Derek Jeter or many teams other than the Yankees, Mets and Red Sox, still almost always watches the World Series.

Lukas Berger · 09-23-2014, 08:38 PM

So I don't think that average age has much to do with anything. The games I go to (mostly MiLB, some college, not really MLB so much) and see on TV, the crowds are all pretty darn young. Lots of teens, 20, 30 and 40 somethings with quite a few older folks mixed in as well, but certainly not as the majority.

Ragnar · 09-23-2014, 08:41 PM

Wanna shorten games? Once the batter gets in the box, that's it. He can do what he wants, but he has to be ready for the pitch. Then start enforcing the pitch time which I believe is 12 seconds? If that's too quick then make it 20. But enforce it.

If there's a man on base restart the clock once the pitcher gets the ball back after a throw to a base. That alone will cut the time down a great deal.

09-23-2014, 11:54 AM	#1
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	Baseball fans - The most important issue of the modern game is being addressed MLB has formed a committee to study the length of game issue. Maybe others do not see it as I do. But this issue is the single biggest threat to the health and growth of the sport. Of the major sports, baseball has the oldest fan base. On the regional level, TV ratings and attendance is fantastic but the age issue is alarming. The current baseball demographic works right now since it is still a viable age market and is currently the wealthiest demographic. But you never want your main demographic to fade away and not be able to replace it. And currently baseball will not be able to do that based on market data and research. Say what you will about generation Y (I am at the very beginning of Gen Y with a birth year in 84) and their attention span. But there is no good argument that baseball games have have gotten 29 minutes longer since 1981. I see no reason why NL games cannot be 2 hr 30 min and AL games 2 hr 35 min This may not seem like a big step from the current pace of 3 hr 1 min for the NL and 3 hr 5 min for the AL but with 5 games a week that is 2.5 hours a week saved for the fan. You are able to digest 5 games in the time that it used to take you to watch 4. I am seeing some push back from older fans who say that changes are unneeded and that the younger group of fans just lacks the appreciation and attention span for baseball. I could not disagree with this more. Younger fans are not dissatisfied with the type of action that you get in baseball vs basketball/hockey/soccer/football. The issue is that they would like the actual time spent playing the game be compressed with less dead time between those action spots. I am glad to see baseball addressing this issue and I hope that the committee not only goes for the easy fixes but adopts some more radical approaches. It is probably controversial, but I would be very supportive of limiting the amount of times a pitcher can throw to a base to hold on a runner. This would speed up the game and lead to more stolen bases which are among the more exciting plays in baseball. I would be supportive of limiting the number of times a team can change pitchers (unless there is an injury) There are probably other radical ideas I am missing and that is completely leaving out the easy ideas like enforcing a pitch clock and making a batter stay in the batters box for the duration of a PA. Make the pitcher deliver the ball in a timely manner while simultaneously making the batter be in the box and ready to crevice the pitch. Have a penalty of a strike imposed on the batter for leaving the confines of the batters box. Add a spot on all 30 teams for an extra bat boy to make sure that in the event of a broken bat that a player receives a new bat immediately and does not need to apply pine tar/boning/adjusting grip tape etc. Make sure that the game does not need to be paused for the umpire to receive new baseballs. I don't want to ramble on any further. My feelings on this should be clear enough. I really hope this committee makes effective and smart changes and I am excited that baseball realizes that this is an issue and is moving to address it.

09-23-2014, 02:48 PM	#3
Lafayette53 Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: California Posts: 346 Blog Entries: 1	I hope they focus on addressing the pace of play rather than the length of the game itself per say. I don't actually care how long a game goes generally, but seeing batters adjust their gloves after every pitch can be grating. Make the pitcher deliver the ball more promptly and stopping batters from doing tai chi in between pitches would solve most of my complaints. Maybe limit throwing over if you want to increase the importance of the running game, but baseball fans tend to be pretty conservative about rule changes that effect statistical output these days so... For the record I'm a younger fan (relative to the forum poll I saw anyway) with a terrible attention span, but I do love the game as is. I just think baseball could afford to pick up the pace a bit. Last edited by Lafayette53; 09-23-2014 at 02:50 PM.

09-23-2014, 03:39 PM	#4
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,413	If one looks at the historical game length data, one of the main contributors to the increase in game lengths is television. I'm not sure how one deals with that since advertising time is what pays for those expensive broadcast contracts. Cutting slots for ads doesn't seem likely, though the prevalence of various 'virtual' ads can perhaps yield some help. The independent Atlantic League this season experimented with a host of rules to try and speed up the game. You can read about its efforts here. I expect the results will be examined by various leagues, including MLB. ETA: Below is a graph I put together a couple of years ago. It shows the average length in minutes of a normal 8½-9 inning (51-54 outs) MLB game from 1920-2011, as calculated from Retrosheet game logs. Attached Images Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 09-23-2014 at 03:44 PM.

09-23-2014, 07:29 PM	#9
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	Nice post but making broad assumptions about what "older" fans opinions are on this subject was unnecessary and very likely wrong. I'd be interested in your definition of "older". Arbitrary age ranges are typically very poor groupings to put people into. Socio-economic and employment status is far more predictive than age. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

09-23-2014, 02:17 PM	#2
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,880	I'm anxious to see what this committee comes up with.

09-23-2014, 06:35 PM	#5
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Blog Entries: 4 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	Definitely television. There's plenty of ad space on the screen, cut a commercial or two and throw in some ads on the top bar/bottom bar. Bring in sponsors for the Scoreboards we see on TV with a logo next to it. Sponsor every little thing to death, "It's the FattyBurger 3rd inning; if the pitcher strikes out the side, John Smith of Fairview wins a years worth of FattyBurgers!" Welcome to the Seventh Inning Stretch sponsored by 2D Gyms - Get a flat stomach at 2D Gyms!"

09-23-2014, 07:18 PM	#6
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	Put logos on uniforms. That is one of the easiest fixes to the television issue. You could cut out two commercials per inning and save 27 minutes per game that way. And advertising on uniforms is a great deal for teams and those who do the advertising since it is permanent and also is much cheaper from a marketing standpoint. The NBA might become the first major NA league to adopt logos on uniforms and I hope they use that to drop a few commercials from the broadcast and cut the game length down a further 15-20 minutes.

09-23-2014, 07:22 PM	#8
rudel.dietrich Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Zürich, Switzerland Posts: 8,608 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	I also forgot, if baseballs age problem continues, then you could see an era of the game where the quality of play drops. If you have talented athletes making youth sports decisions and they do not like baseball then they will choose football, basketball or soccer to continue playing past the HS level. The smaller the talent pool, the worse play will become. MLB has already lost blacks. Baseball used to be the premier sport of the black athlete until the late 70s and in the modern era it has lost to football and basketball. The next demographic they could lose would be young Hispanics who have a culture of youth soccer and are increasingly being represented in football at the NCAA and NFL level.

09-23-2014, 08:38 PM	#19
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 19,901	So I don't think that average age has much to do with anything. The games I go to (mostly MiLB, some college, not really MLB so much) and see on TV, the crowds are all pretty darn young. Lots of teens, 20, 30 and 40 somethings with quite a few older folks mixed in as well, but certainly not as the majority.

09-23-2014, 08:41 PM	#20
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,013	Wanna shorten games? Once the batter gets in the box, that's it. He can do what he wants, but he has to be ready for the pitch. Then start enforcing the pitch time which I believe is 12 seconds? If that's too quick then make it 20. But enforce it. If there's a man on base restart the clock once the pitcher gets the ball back after a throw to a base. That alone will cut the time down a great deal.