[swampdragon]

Even with all of the above, Bonds has to be #2 if he retires today. (Which is possible, because this BALCO business is hanging over a lot of heads, and I expect Bonds to retire if indicted). The seasons he has had can only be compared to Ruth's prime, and Bonds is 40. If he sticks around for 3 or 4 more years, and the steroid business blows over, he'll have Aaron's record, another batting title or two, and the best seasons anyone's ever had. I think it would be hard not to move him ahead of Ruth at that point.

[cooper_gd]

The more he goes on, the more I'm a believer. The only thing that could possibly account for all of his stats is if it is proven that he has cybernetic enhancments like the Bionic Man. The man is a monster.

[mlyons]

He's undeniably playing a different game than everyone else in the league right now. The only other player to do that was Ruth. I think you have to put him right there with Ruth in terms of all-time greats now.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Which is possible, because this BALCO business is hanging over a lot of heads, and I expect Bonds to retire if indicted.

Why is he going to be indicted? There are already track and field stars found to be using tetrahydragestrinone provided by BALCO, and the only punishment is suspension from sports.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

There are some days that I take pain killers so that I can go to work. I have never taken steroids before going to work to perform better. Steroids are illegal. If I go to work on weed because I think I can concentrate better with them, I run the chance of getting caught and fired.

Steroids weren't banned in baseball until very recently. I don't see the difference between Favre taking illegal doses of medication before the game not banned by his sport and baseball player x taking illegal doses of medication before the game.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Steroids weren't banned in baseball until very recently. I don't see the difference between Favre taking illegal doses of medication before the game not banned by his sport and baseball player x taking illegal doses of medication before the game.

Are you making some kind of excuse for Babe Ruth?

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

Why is he going to be indicted? There are already track and field stars found to be using tetrahydragestrinone provided by BALCO, and the only punishment is suspension from sports.

In general, people indicted after grand jury testimony wind up either being indicted for perjury or obstruction. Now we don't know what he told the grand jury, but if it was the same thing he's telling the rest of us, and he's lying, then it would not be out of character for a publicity seeking U.S. attorney to have him indicted for perjury. It's certainly happened enough times before to high profile celebrities.

[holyroller]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

In general, people indicted after grand jury testimony wind up either being indicted for perjury or obstruction. Now we don't know what he told the grand jury, but if it was the same thing he's telling the rest of us, and he's lying, then it would not be out of character for a publicity seeking U.S. attorney to have him indicted for perjury. It's certainly happened enough times before to high profile celebrities.

In fact, that is what they seem to be aiming to do. Make an example out of him.

[SoxWin]

If he perjured himself, I have no problem with him being made an example of. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would, but I'm simple.

[holyroller]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

If he perjured himself, I have no problem with him being made an example of. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would, but I'm simple.

Well, it's kind of like the Clinton-Lewinsky thing. The whole thing just reeks of a setup to me. Hopefully he told the truth, but I can see why he would lie.

[SoxWin]

Fair enough, maybe they are setting him up. However, a set up only works if you catch the guy lying right? I'm not advocating a witch hunt but if they can prove he used and therefore lied to the grand jury, he should be punished. Just my $0.015 CDN (adjusted for exchange)

Edit, so should anyone else who perjured themselves. If in fact anyone did.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

In general, people indicted after grand jury testimony wind up either being indicted for perjury or obstruction. Now we don't know what he told the grand jury, but if it was the same thing he's telling the rest of us, and he's lying, then it would not be out of character for a publicity seeking U.S. attorney to have him indicted for perjury. It's certainly happened enough times before to high profile celebrities.

However, how are you going to prove Bonds took steroid and lied? Whatever evidence they get from BALCO is obvious not enough, since they are not accusing Bonds of prejury now. And I don't think any drug tests from now on would catch anything either.

The only people who can change that are Victor Conte, Greg Anderson, and Bonds himself. I don't think they'll change their version of stories any time soon, truth or not.

[mh2365]

We will never know for sure, because like someone else said, there is no way he tests positive now. Unless he was one of the ones who tested positive last year and I don't think he was because he's look like a fool denying it this much knowing he tested positive.

As to whether he did or not we won't ever really know. I personally believe in the sayings that "where there is smoke there is fire" and "where there is rumor, there is usually truth". There can't be this many people pointing at him without there being some truth to the rumor. But he can't be proven guilty right now so it's kind of a moot point. Oh what's that other saying "me thinks he doths protest too much"

Kinda like Garcia and Piazza holding press conferences to say they aren't gay.

[asamford]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

If I go to work on weed because I think I can concentrate better with them, I run the chance of getting caught and fired.

that's a risk i'm willing to take!!

[asamford]

illegal drug use has been rampant throughout baseball for many decades. If it's not steroids, it's speed/uppers/greenies. Although it didn't really make headlines until the past couple of years, ephedrine has been on the market forever, and i'm sure plenty of ball players have used that as well. Is anyone discounting the 462 home runs that Canseco hit, more than all but 25 other baseball players to have played the game? Is there a big asterisk by his totals?

From 1920-1933 alcohol was illegal in the United States. You gonna tell me that the Babe didn't consume any alcohol for those 13 years? While it can't really be argued that alcohol is a performance enhancing drug, he still consumed an ILLEGAL drug for 13 of his playing years. So, should all of his stats be discounted?

With techonological advances in nutrition, exercise, medicine, etc, etc, ALL of today's players have an advantage over the players of Ruth's time. Which really just goes to say that what Babe Ruth did was that much more amazing. But it also means you can't discount what Bonds has done at all.

Babe Ruth was an extremely effective pitcher, who racked up big numbers on the mound. Had he spent his career only as a pitcher, he likely would have still been a hall of famer, although maybe not as legendary of one. That's what gives Ruth the edge and makes him the greatest baseball player of all time.

However, Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time. Period.

[CommishJoe]

At the conference, a guy came in who has been involved with baseball all his life(he's an announcer for the Mudhens now). He has a picture of Babe Ruth holding him when he was a baby (as his father was involved with baseball as well). He actually saw Ruth play.

I asked him since he's seen both, who would he say is better. He didn't even hesitate. Ruth. When asked how many HRs Ruth would hit today, his reply was "over 100".

Ruth was miles ahead of his competition at the time. Who knows what Ruth could have done with the latest training technology. Ruth was a boozer, he smoked, and he didn't take care of himself. I shudder to think what he would have done if he trained like today's players do.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

I shudder to think what he would have done if he trained like today's players do.

Well, I don't think Ruth would train half as hard as Bonds even if all the modern methods are known to him. It's not like every modern player works hard and stays in shape either.

As for the guy you talked about, isn't it kind of obvious every old guy think old timers are better?

[holyroller]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

As for the guy you talked about, isn't it kind of obvious every old guy think old timers are better?

Mhmmm

[Akrobat]

I think a big point is going unnoticed here. Bonds is shutting up every single critic (deservedly so) by his play this season. After all these speculations that Bonds was only so great because of steriods, Barry has to come back in 2004 as a clean, normal player. What's the result?

Currently a .357 average, his second highest season total of all-time (behind his .370 season). One homerun in every 8.7 at bats! The year before his record breaking season, Bonds hit a homerun in every 9.8 at bats. The year after his record breaker, he hit a homerun in every 8.7 at bats as well. Let's not forget this guy gets maybe 1 solid pitch to hit every game.

Say Bonds is on steroids all you want. Bottom line is that this guy is still the best hitter that we've seen in decades. Bonds has a microscope on him right now, and he's still doing what he always does.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

As for the guy you talked about, isn't it kind of obvious every old guy think old timers are better?

Well, in all fairness, when asked who his favorite recent player was, he did say Mantle However, I'd still give more weight to his opinion because he actually watched both players play. That's more then any of us can say. All we can do is look at the #s for Ruth and watch Bonds. He had the privledge of watching both. Coming from a man who's been in the sport all of his life, I don't think his opinion is so easily dismissed.