American heavies vs. Europeans

[Syd Thrift]

I just watched the Klitschko/Brewster fight on HBO On Demand and was kind of surprised by one of Lamon Brewster's contentions. He said that because American boxers more often come from poverty, they are willing to withstand more punishment than their European counterparts. Now, I will grant you that this particular fight is maybe the best rebuttal to Brewster's contention - he never seemed willing to take the beating he needed to take to get inside on Wladimir and quit after 6 rounds of being peppered with jabs. I wonder, though... does he have a point? I don't think Smokin' Joe Frazier could have been made anywhere but the US, and I have a hard time thinking of Bernard Hopkins or Evander Holyfield being non-USA products either. And Klitschko, for such a great boxer, *does* seem to have an awfully glassy jaw...

So what say you? Was Brewster's opinion here as faulty as his boxing in the fight?

[CONN CHRIS]

I would think that the general increase in dominance of fighters from the former Soviet states would suggest that the situation he describes as an American phenomena has been at the very least duplicated in Eastern Europe.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

And Klitschko, for such a great boxer, *does* seem to have an awfully glassy jaw...

Never been knocked cold .. only dropped by a punch to the jaw 1 time.

I'd like Brewster to go to Russia some time if he doesn't think they have poverty.

[btown32]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I would think that the general increase in dominance of fighters from the former Soviet states would suggest that the situation he describes as an American phenomena has been at the very least duplicated in Eastern Europe.

I agree, most of the former Soviet Union boxers fought to get into a better financial situation. Athletes that show potential at a young age are often brought into the country's sports program and are trained specifically to advance towards a championship, either Olympics or World Championships. These programs allow them to get proper training and the bare necessities such as food that are sometimes hard to come by. Brewster's claim may have been more appropriate back in the day, but most of today's athletes are pampered and not that impoverished. Even if they started poor, too many athletes then become big-headed, forgot where they came from and lose the incentive. Its all about the money and bling nowadays, not about the history or legacy one leaves.

[Tommysixfingers]

Brewster is an idiot. He should travel a bit and find out about poverty.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Never been knocked cold .. only dropped by a punch to the jaw 1 time.

Yeah, but in a way that makes Brewster's point. Getting dropped cold isn't a problem with a lack of will, it's a physiological problem. The first Brewster/Klitschko fight was a great example of a guy dominating for 4 rounds and then seeming to quit the first time he got touched. Not that I agree with Brewster; boxers do, however, seem to put together an evidentiary basis for many of their beliefs.

Actually, one of the things I really like about boxing is the way that guys are able to demonstrate to fans the strengths and weaknesses of other boxers. You don't see that so much in team sports because there's always that chance that the guy you're ripping apart in public is going to be on your team in the future. You don't see it so much that I've seen in tennis or other individual sports either; there usually seems to be a lot of "my opponent was great and blah blah blah" instead. Only in boxing do you get guys like Bernard Hopkins actively coming out and saying that he thinks Roy Jones Jr. is a shadow of what he used to be, for example.

I'd like Brewster to go to Russia some time if he doesn't think they have poverty.

While Klitschko himself is an educated man, you are for sure right about the environment he came out of (also, he's Ukrainian, but still). Poverty can be a relative thing, however. And the United States lacks a lot of the safety nets other Western countries have for their poor. Maybe the Ukraine does as well, I don't know.

[Tommysixfingers]

While Klitschko himself is an educated man, you are for sure right about the environment he came out of (also, he's Ukrainian, but still). Poverty can be a relative thing, however. And the United States lacks a lot of the safety nets other Western countries have for their poor. Maybe the Ukraine does as well, I don't know.

I've never been to Ukraine but if it is in the "same league" as some countries in the balkans, Moldova, Romania and so on (I believe that it is), poverty is a fact for many, many people.

I don't know much about american safety nets compared to other western countries either. What I do know is that discussing the fully working safety nets with someone living in the outskirts of Marseille or Paris or the ghettos in Slovakia would get you impopular very quick.

I'm fortunate to live in a country that has among the most generous safety nets in the world. Most people get by even those who won't die rich. In that sense I agree with you. Poverty is a relative thing. I've seen enough poverty to appreciate the standard of life that most swedes ( me included) have.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Yeah, but in a way that makes Brewster's point. Getting dropped cold isn't a problem with a lack of will, it's a physiological problem.

Somebody should tell Brewster quitting on his stool showed a lack of will. As for the first fight, we watched two entirely different fights ... I never saw Wlad quit. I did see him so exhausted that he fell down three times without being touched but I kept seeing him get up. Quitting is what Brewster did in the second fight.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Somebody should tell Brewster quitting on his stool showed a lack of will. As for the first fight, we watched two entirely different fights ... I never saw Wlad quit. I did see him so exhausted that he fell down three times without being touched but I kept seeing him get up. Quitting is what Brewster did in the second fight.

Fair observation of how Wald lost the first fight to Brewster....Though he was rocked originally -

And that is Wald's big flaw IMO - He doesn't respond well to being tagged - He panics and looks for safety first and foremost - Vs the all-time greats (and even some of the all-time goods) this would have cost him....

[IceTea]

The United States has the richest poor people in the world. I believe most American fighters to be lazy especially at heavyweight.

I train amateur boxers here in Utica and we have a 16 year old (6'2" 185 lbs) that is here for the summer visiting his father. He is from the Czech Republic. He began boxing there about a year ago. There are vastly different training techniques between the US and Europe. They are more defensive in Europe and less aggressive.....pretty much jab and right hand with few exceptions. I've been teaching him the left hook and counter punching. I would have to have him for another two or three months to work in uppercuts. He is very disciplined. I put him through my medicine ball, upper body, and ab routines, he complained but completed them and does them daily without me having to supervise him. I have to stand over most of the locals with the exception of the girls who seem to have endless endurance.

I think this kid will be freakish tall like Wlad and some of the other Euro heavyweights....must be some good food over there.

MJ

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by meade95

Fair observation of how Wald lost the first fight to Brewster....Though he was rocked originally -

And that is Wald's big flaw IMO - He doesn't respond well to being tagged - He panics and looks for safety first and foremost - Vs the all-time greats (and even some of the all-time goods) this would have cost him....

That is a much more accurate assessment than saying he has a glass jaw. Confidence and stamina were always his problems. I think the Samuel Peter fight helped tremendously in the confindence area. He was down and still dominated the fight. His stamina problems seemed to have been cured by Manny. He doesn't go wild when he hurts someone like he used to an wear himself down.

[Jim_Kidd]

It's amazing how many of the "poor" people in the US have cable TV (the 300+ station kind) and gaming systems, like xBox 360 or Playstation. That, and plenty of beer and cigarettes on hand.

The poverty in the former Soviet Block countries is a lot harsher than it is over here.

Concerning Wlad Klitschko, I think he sort of went through the "George Foreman" syndrome. Foreman is a good example of a fighter who learned how to relax mentally and physically in the ring. Once he did, he became a different fighter.

I think Wlad's gone through the same transformation. It's one thing to physically fall apart. But when your mind collapses behind it, you're through. That's what I think happened in the ring against Brewster the first time. First, the physically went... and then - closely behind came the mental part.

If fighters train to fight the Klitschko who falls apart the first time he gets rocked, or anticipate him running out of gas within moments after getting stunned a few times, they're probably going to get knocked out.

Klitschko has grown into a more mature, better conditioned, mentally stronger fighter than the version we saw several years ago. He uses his height and reach well and can knock out fighters with either hand.

Right now, he is the hardest, riskiest test there is in the Heavyweight division.