Carl Williams on today's heavyweights

[IceTea]

http://www.fightbeat.com/article_detail.php?AT=465

[btown32]

Good article...I see why his nickname is "The Truth."

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by btown32

Good article...I see why his nickname is "The Truth."

Yeah I was surprised his nickname isn't "Bitter old has been" ...

[meade95]

I might not agree with every comment of his.....but for the most part "The Truth" was speaking the truth.....

[Thunder]

The politics of the sport certainly discourage the best from fighting each other. That I'll give him. Although money still talks and still makes for good matchups as the belts have less value with each passing day.

But old fighters (or in some cases, as Mike said, Bitter old has-beens) have been saying young fighters suck for what now? a couple centuries?

When did the days of Larry Holmes suddenly become the Golden Age of boxing?? I mean, I know Carl Williams was man enough to take on the great Ossie Ocasio, but his bravery not withstading, those heavyweights were ridiculed in their own era.

These guys aren't as good as Holmes, Holmes was no Ali, Ali was no Marciano, Marciano was no Louis, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Depending on your beliefs, I guess you have to go back to either Adam or Grunt the Caveman to find the best of all time. (yawn).

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah... I was watching the Tyson thing on Ringside last week and it got me to thinking about just how *awful* the division was in the late 80s and early 90s. My current take on Iron Mike is that he never did have any heart but prior to Buster Douglas nobody ever really tried to fight him. The guys that did go the distance with him - Cowboy Tillis and Bonecrusher Smith IIRC - did so by clinching the entire night. Granted that that's one way to go against an inside fighter like the early Tyson was, but still... looking back at the Tyson-Buster Douglas fight, Tyson didn't look like he was hit *that* hard. I'm not sure that even Vitaly Klitschko would have stayed down for 10 seconds with that punch. Okay, sure, the cornerwork was terrible (his cut man treated his eye with a latex glove filled with water!) and so, probably, was his pre-fight training, but it's pretty clear in the years since exactly how small Tyson's heart was all along.

Anyway, the only reason I'm running down Tyson is that he was clearly the cream of the division, at least until he "fell apart". Other than him you had a converted light heavyweight in Holyfield, an old fart who couldn't do anything but land one big punch in Foreman, and a whole bunch of guys in Michael Spinks, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes and so on hanging on from an earlier era because there was nobody around from the new kids good enough to knock them out. I think the division today is better because... well, because it would be hard for it to be any worse.

The whole "the kids in my day were better" thing is a very, very common refrain you hear from old sports stars. Bill James has an example of one of these guys from just about every decade in his Historical Baseball Abstract. Point being, I'd take comments like this with a little bit less than your average grain of salt.

[IceTea]

Not sure who the greatest heavyweight is of all-time, but David defeating the heavily favored Goliath is the greatest upset of recent history.

Carl "The Truth" Williams was a good heavyweight that championship level sluggers would figure out and defeat. I think he was more difficult for boxers to defeat, sluggers could have their way with him.

MJ

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, it always amazes me when smaller guys win by fighting outside.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The whole "the kids in my day were better" thing is a very, very common refrain you hear from old sports stars. Bill James has an example of one of these guys from just about every decade in his Historical Baseball Abstract. Point being, I'd take comments like this with a little bit less than your average grain of salt.

For any baseball fan who has not read this, go buy it . . today.

You have to deal with James reminding you every 20 pages or so that he knows more about baseball than you could ever hope to in 10 lifetimes, but there is some tremendous stuff in there.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by IceTea

Not sure who the greatest heavyweight is of all-time, but David defeating the heavily favored Goliath is the greatest upset of recent history.

Not sure that's recent history (or even history at all, but that's another matter), but it's a pretty solid pick for No. 1 upset of all time.

Rest of my top 5
George McFly v. Biff Tannen
England v. France at Agincourt
Buster Douglas v. Mike Tyson
Chicken v. Egg (whoever wins)

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Anyway, the only reason I'm running down Tyson is that he was clearly the cream of the division, at least until he "fell apart". Other than him you had a converted light heavyweight in Holyfield, an old fart who couldn't do anything but land one big punch in Foreman, and a whole bunch of guys in Michael Spinks, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes and so on hanging on from an earlier era because there was nobody around from the new kids good enough to knock them out. I think the division today is better because... well, because it would be hard for it to be any worse.

[Tommysixfingers]

Anyway, the only reason I'm running down Tyson is that he was clearly the cream of the division, at least until he "fell apart". Other than him you had a converted light heavyweight in Holyfield, an old fart who couldn't do anything but land one big punch in Foreman, and a whole bunch of guys in Michael Spinks, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tubbs, Larry Holmes and so on hanging on from an earlier era because there was nobody around from the new kids good enough to knock them out. I think the division today is better because... well, because it would be hard for it to be any worse.

[wildhawke11]

[quote=Syd Thrift;2282845]Yeah... I was watching the Tyson thing on Ringside last week and it got me to thinking about just how *awful* the division was in the late 80s and early 90s. My current take on Iron Mike is that he never did have any heart but prior to Buster Douglas nobody ever really tried to fight him. The guys that did go the distance with him - Cowboy Tillis and Bonecrusher Smith IIRC - did so by clinching the entire night. Granted that that's one way to go against an inside fighter like the early Tyson was, but still... looking back at the Tyson-Buster Douglas fight, Tyson didn't look like he was hit *that* hard. I'm not sure that even Vitaly Klitschko would have stayed down for 10 seconds with that punch. Okay, sure, the cornerwork was terrible (his cut man treated his eye with a latex glove filled with water!) and so, probably, was his pre-fight training, but it's pretty clear in the years since exactly how small Tyson's heart was all along.





Tyson used the intimidation factor to his great advantage many times but he earned that right just like Sonny Liston did. Tyson carried that aura around because of his sharp and effective work he did in the ring. Under Cus Damato and trainer Kevin Rooney he had fantastic hand speed, had great accuracy and threw fast combinations with power to spare. Perhaps your forgetting or maybe you did not know that Tyson and Rooney worked on three and four punch combinations and in fact called out numbers during gym work to make the young man a deadly fighting machine. Lets not forget how young in fact Tyson was at the time, as for his competition it compares very favourable with other HW champions at the same age check it out yourself.

Spinks had never even been beaten before he met Mike. Holmes went on for another decade. Tubbs later went the distance with Bowe. Frank Bruno and Tony Tucker both went on to win titles while Tyson was in prison, now remember the wins over this competition was done by a guy who was little more then a teenager. Of course by the time of the Douglas fight you could say it was a different guy in the ring. Gone was the duck and weaving fighter and the beautiful combinations from his past and in came the one punch lets hope it lands fighter. After that it was all downhill for Tyson as we all now know. So i wont bore you with that one.


My own thoughts are often people cant separate the fighter from the man. As a man Tyson stinks he was like a child in a mans body.
One time we all loved the fighter who had us on the edge of our seats in his fights, scared even to blink less we missed the KO punch. But deep down i think we hate him more because he seemed to have it all, and promised so much yet this talented young man who perhaps could have been one of the best ever blew it all away and therefore deprived us of saying we lived in a time when we saw one of the greatest fighters ever. Personally i think a peak Mike Tyson was the most devastating young HW that i can remember and would have been a threat to many of the past champions for at least the first 4 or 5 rounds. If you could survive them dangerous early rounds then i feel the odds would turn in favour of you as the doubts started to creep into this manchilds mind.

Yes Mike Tyson you had the World at your feet - but you let yourself down both as a Fighter and as a decent Human Being.

[btown32]

I agree with your last two paragraphs completely. Unfortunately, Tyson had no character and eventually imploded. We never got to see the culmination of what started under D'Amato and Rooney. Tyson fell in love with the "ghetto-fabulous" life-style and couldn't make good decisions. A lot of that has to do with all the "yes" men that entered his life after Cus died. I am not saying that Mike wasnt at fault, it is completely his own fault because he stopped learning and wanted to do everything his own way. But the progression in his training never advanced after he left Rooney. Look at all the success that Freddie Roach is having with the Filipino boxers. Those boxers are listening and training because they still have the desire and hunger to improve and succeed...which is what Tyson forgot after he went to Brooks. Yes, I believe that Tyson has been overated, but the young Tyson was a monster and I wouldve loved to have seen how his career wouldve played out if he had kept his head on straight.

[Mr Big]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Yeah I was surprised his nickname isn't "Bitter old has been" ...

That's my thinking. And, "truth" be known, Carl is just another retired heavyweight who thinks his era was the best ever. I guess that the 80s really was the golden age of boxing, but we somehow missed it. Didn't appreciate his comments about Klitschko, either. Wlad would have laid him flat.