Ring Strategy - Computer controlled - Is Jacked -

[mh2365]

I've mentioned it in beta forum but I'm nearly positive nothing has been changed in this since 2.0 .... as far as 1.9 I don't know because it's been 5 years or so since I played it.

[David Ball]

Yes, 1.9 seems like another world now. However, I'll suggest again that the one thing that has changed is that the default now is to assign random trainers for each fight. I have always stuck with the generics, and I find that with them the fighters tend more often to follow instructions when it suits their style but ignore them when it doesn't.

The higher rated named trainers are too good at imposing cookie cutter strategies. If anyone is seeing increased problems with this, it may be better to turn this off and either go with generic trainers or make sure everybody has less effective named trainers.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by David Ball

I have always stuck with the generics, and I find that with them the fighters tend more often to follow instructions when it suits their style but ignore them when it doesn't.

The higher rated named trainers are too good at imposing cookie cutter strategies. If anyone is seeing increased problems with this, it may be better to turn this off and either go with generic trainers or make sure everybody has less effective named trainers.

Huh - Never thought of that - Use a less rated guy and his advice will be ignored more often -

What I did try was to create trainers who had a "zero" for advice given - I thought this may work as a trainer would with a zero rating would give NO advice...... Wrong, they still seemd to give out advice oddly enough - (if this would have worked it would have fixed the problem..... fighter would have used the "fight normal" option....while at the same time AUTOMATICALLY cover-up if he was hurt........ WITHOUT the need for me to push "ok"...as is needed if I turn strategies off.

Also...

Refresh me on this (someone) - When you see "Fight outside offensively" and then a (-).

Does this mean the fighter ignored his corners advice? (and is in fight normal mode then).

Does a (+) mean he is following the advice?

[mh2365]

Correct ... I have reported it in the beta thread but I have no time frame for another patch with Andreas currently working on OOTP.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by David Ball

Yes, 1.9 seems like another world now. However, I'll suggest again that the one thing that has changed is that the default now is to assign random trainers for each fight. I have always stuck with the generics, and I find that with them the fighters tend more often to follow instructions when it suits their style but ignore them when it doesn't.

The higher rated named trainers are too good at imposing cookie cutter strategies. If anyone is seeing increased problems with this, it may be better to turn this off and either go with generic trainers or make sure everybody has less effective named trainers.

Ok - Have done some play-testing here - And there could be some major issues with TBCB 2.5 (and any realm of reality behind results). Regarding the computer AI / selecting strategies for corners.

1. In 2.5 (and likely 2.0) the computer AI is completey jacked (bordering on ridiculous with much of its ring advice to fighters)..... With that said...

TBCB own manual lets everyone know how important "strategies" are within the game "and can GREATLY effect the outcome of simmed bouts"....

In TBCB 1.9....this was done at a much more reasonable level (with much more often fight normal occuring). In 2.5 it is ridiculous how often "fight outside defensive" is issued to 1. Sluggers early in a fight and 2. To fighters who have just scored a KD the round prior.

2. With the option of "turning computer AI strategies off"...not really an option (unless you want to sit and watch every single round......so that if any fighter is "hurt"...you will be there to click the "should fighter X cover-up" selection box)...... We have a problem here....

And the notion that "cover-up" isn't just automatically done...is foolishness. Heck, why aren't we giving the "ok" to throw a jab...or a hook...for that matter....."covering up" when hurt is just as natural as throwing a jab or hook in the game of boxing...

3. The above advice of using a "generic" or poorly rated corner men....maybe part of a workaround (but far from ideal)...and still far from solving the issue...... As it seems a fighters "intelligence" is just as (and likely MORE) important to whether a fighter will follow some ad-hoc ring strategy or not....

4. Do we know is a fighters intelliegnce rating.... Does this effect anything OTHER than simply his ability to follow corner strategy?? If so, what else?

5. A possible workout around (without some type of patch....fixing the "do you want fighter X to cover-up"...when hurt).....another possible work around could be to combine figthers with generic (low quality) cornermen......while also at the same time going through and EDITING every single fighters INTELLIGENCE to "1".....

6.Lastly.....when a fighter is given the strategy to say "fighout outside defensive" and than has a (-) next to this....... Does this mean he IS NOT following those instructions and then by default is "fighting normal"...??

[mh2365]

On number 6 once again yes

I hope I am wrong but I don't see a patch coming soon with Andreas busy on OOTP9 ... I'd like to see them fixed also but I don't really pay much attention to them.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

On number 6 once again yes

I hope I am wrong but I don't see a patch coming soon with Andreas busy on OOTP9 ... I'd like to see them fixed also but I don't really pay much attention to them.

Thanks (on #6) Just wanting double assurance! HA.

I understand not paying to much attention to them....problem is they have a huge impact (or at the least very large) on the outcome of Simmed fights......

My only help is some type of turn-key patch...that would simply make "cover-up" always answered to "yes"....(that maybe doable).

[Brooks TVB]

Originally Posted by mh2365

On number 6 once again yes

I hope I am wrong but I don't see a patch coming soon with Andreas busy on OOTP9 ... I'd like to see them fixed also but I don't really pay much attention to them.

I'm with Mike here. It would be nice to be fixed but I too do not pay much attention to it.

[David Ball]

Originally Posted by meade95

6.Lastly.....when a fighter is given the strategy to say "fighout outside defensive" and than has a (-) next to this....... Does this mean he IS NOT following those instructions and then by default is "fighting normal"...??

I think this point is more important than may appear on the surface. The trainers' instructions appear to be very stereotyped, with little if any variation for the type of fighter, and probably none at all for the length of the fight: Normal in round one -- then a few rounds fighting outside -- then a couple fighting inside.

But fighters are likelier to ignore instructions that don't suit their natural style. Therefore, a boxer is likely to fight outside in the early rounds and then normally (ignoring inside instructions) and a slugger to fight normally (ignoring outside instructions) until he goes inside around the middle of the fight.

If I understand it correctly, this is not a perfect system by any means, but there's a real logic to it, and I like to use it in spite of its limitations. But you'll see that the fighters' ability to ignore inappropriate instructions is an intrinsic part of the system, and in fact is essential to making it work relatively well. Trainers who have very high ratings, I think, in practice are not really "good" trainers, as you would naturally think. The probably don't give any smarter instructions than the lower-rated ones, they just have their orders followed more frequently. For practical purposes, you can think of them as unimaginative but very strong-willed men who are better able to impose bad strategies on their fighters. For lack of a more sophisticated logic behind the trainers' instructions, I think it's better not to use the more highly rated ones.

[Owen]

I find it to be troublesome when trying to rate new fighters. In one case the fighter A kept taking rounds off when he was in total control. Basically it skewed my results for rating fighter B.

[Brooks TVB]

I had a championship fight last night in my universe where the strategy was good for both fighters. The Champ had a real trainer while the challenger had a generic. The strategy was good all fight for both fighters. The challenger had more power and used the go for KO the rest of the fight when he fell behind on the cards. The Champ used the fight outside defensive when he got a lead.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

I'm with Mike here. It would be nice to be fixed but I too do not pay much attention to it.

Not paying too much attention to this is fine....(for people). However, the reality is "selected AI strategies GREATLY effect the SIM model ...and thus the results of most fights that take place.....

I have done days of play-testing with AI strategy and while there are certain fights that seem to go decently (that is just the math of averages)...the reality is a ridiculous amount of times...there is absolutely awful Strategy selections being made by the AI/Computer. This greatly effects the reality of TBCB -

When Mike Tyson is fighting 3 of his first 5 rounds "outside defensive"......that isn't an accurate SIM of Tyson in the ring......... When a guy scores a KD and the very next round is told to "fight outside defensive"....this is foolishness....

So, the only alternative to making TBCB 2.5 at all an accurate SIM....would be to have the "strategies turned OFF"......However, then we run into the foolish "do you want fighter X to cover-up" when hurt pop-up-box to appear......Which means you have to sit there and watch every second of every round....(ridiculous option for the most part).....

A figther by default should ALWAYS look to COVER-UP...when hurt......Or we might as well be having to tell each fighter what type of punch to throw each second of each round.

A small patch turning on the COVER-UP strategy is what is needed - It would not take a lot of program time...and is the least OOTP should do for all those who have upgraded and purchased this product..... Who have stood by this product.

[mh2365]

I don't think either of us is disagreeing with you meade it absolutely needs to be fixed ... just saying we don't pay much attention to it in the broad scope of things.

[Brooks TVB]

Originally Posted by mh2365

I don't think either of us is disagreeing with you meade it absolutely needs to be fixed ... just saying we don't pay much attention to it in the broad scope of things.

Again, I agree 100%.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

Again, I agree 100%.

It is fine to simply "ignore" the flaws - Sure - But then the reality of what we are doing here is playing some SCI-FI type boxing sim - With very little based on reality or in trying to SIM different actual "what-ifs" -

AI strategy selection has a GREAT impact on any results of TBCB - (the hours people pour over of rating of fighters....to a degree is useless.....if other varibles are completely flawed within the engine)...... Which to a degree is where we are at right now.

The full fix is to correct / overhaul the way AI strategy selections work / playout -

The quick fix (in order to make TBCB at all a real SIM) would be to apply a Patch that would by default make the "cover-up" mode automatically kick-in when a fighter is hurt (which is just common-sense and shouldn't have to be told to do). This would allow the SIM to unfold with "strategies turned OFF"......Fighters boxing with their own skill sets......while at the same time when hurt defaulting to a cover-up mode.

[Cap]

How much of the strategies have real impact on the action and how much are they merely window dressing? I've noticed many times where inappropriate strategies are suggested, but how often are they followed? I always just let the game control strategies. So, I generally don't give them much thought, but I'm assuming now that they are the reason I'll see rounds in a fight where one fighter apparently doesn't throw any punches for three solid minutes.

Cap

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Cap

How much of the strategies have real impact on the action and how much are they merely window dressing? I've noticed many times where inappropriate strategies are suggested, but how often are they followed? I always just let the game control strategies. So, I generally don't give them much thought, but I'm assuming now that they are the reason I'll see rounds in a fight where one fighter apparently doesn't throw any punches for three solid minutes.

Cap

Yes - In TBCB 2.5 (and 2.0) the strategy selection model certainly became much more fouled up - Much more involved - In that in prior TBCB versions......where AI/Computer controlled strategies were selected..."fight normal" was used much more often......and when strategies were given....they were much more "reasonable" for the current situation in the fight.

Now - As for how much is window dressing and how much has an actual effect - IF, the fighter follows the advice of the AI/Computer.....It has a LARGE effect on the fight (round by round)....... That is why "fight normal" makes much more sense unless a specific strategy is needed for a certain round......(in terms of SIMMING).

Again, the quickest fix (short term) would be for a PATCH to come out that allows for all users to simply TURN OFF computer controlled strategies.....while at the same time making all fighters "cover-up" when hurt (and not having to click that silly box, saying YES, allow fighter X to cover-up). Covering up when hurt should be a default response for all fighters who are in trouble.

The larger more encompassing fix to the current AI/Computer controlled strategy selection. Would be for the player to give the computer controlled corner a general idea of what advice they would like to see implemented (if any). Be it fight aggressive, fight outside, etc, etc......(and even here, the fighter should "fight normal", oftenly as well).


I've been play-testing with some other alternatives....(until a patch) such as rating all figthers with an intelligence of "1" (lowest possible)...and creating awful trainers to pair all fighters with. Seeing if these poor trainers would STOP in giving advice...and then if advice is given...boxers with low (1) values for intelligence simply ignore / do not follow their trainers advice... (results are very mixed on this right now....not good.....A for sure, poor quality trainers seem to offer as much as advice as ever...unfortuantely).


This is a big issue right now.....that simply most have ignored....as it has sort of slipped by. But the reality is if we are trying to recreate and technically SIM ...."what if's".....TBCB 2.5 is flawed big time in this aspect...To the point of being almost useless....(if trying to run a universe).

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by meade95

It is fine to simply "ignore" the flaws - Sure - But then the reality of what we are doing here is playing some SCI-FI type boxing sim - With very little based on reality or in trying to SIM different actual "what-ifs" -

AI strategy selection has a GREAT impact on any results of TBCB - (the hours people pour over of rating of fighters....to a degree is useless.....if other varibles are completely flawed within the engine)...... Which to a degree is where we are at right now.

The full fix is to correct / overhaul the way AI strategy selections work / playout -

The quick fix (in order to make TBCB at all a real SIM) would be to apply a Patch that would by default make the "cover-up" mode automatically kick-in when a fighter is hurt (which is just common-sense and shouldn't have to be told to do). This would allow the SIM to unfold with "strategies turned OFF"......Fighters boxing with their own skill sets......while at the same time when hurt defaulting to a cover-up mode.

What is your favorite thing to say .. you are creating strawman arguments. Both Brooks and I agree with you 100% and think it needs to be fixed ... all we are saying is that we don't pay that much attention to them. We are not saying we ignore them because they are broke ... we are saying we never would have realized that they are broke because we don't pay attention to them.

As far as a quick fix ... there is no such thing in programming. Even if it was a quick fix to change the default cover up mode, it might cause 19 other things to go wrong.

and FWIW I've been running the same uni for a long time and find TBCB anything but useless.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

What is your favorite thing to say .. you are creating strawman arguments. Both Brooks and I agree with you 100% and think it needs to be fixed ... all we are saying is that we don't pay that much attention to them. We are not saying we ignore them because they are broke ... we are saying we never would have realized that they are broke because we don't pay attention to them.

As far as a quick fix ... there is no such thing in programming. Even if it was a quick fix to change the default cover up mode, it might cause 19 other things to go wrong.

No - My ignored comment wasn't directed toward you (or Brooks) it was more a generalization for those not within this thread / discussion - That to many TBCB simmers, this flaw is simply being ignored (or not aware of).

As for a quick-fix on the Default mode of "covering-up" - No, it would be quite simple - In that the program (code) is already there / in place for what to do, how to proceed with a "YES" response. The fix/patch would just be to make the YES response a "constant". The code is already in place for such an answer / response.

And the reality is .....TBCB 2.5 is flawed beyone being useful as this point....in terms of using it for any type of reality based "what-ifs" Universes.....

All the DB work that has been done....Is completley for not at this current state. Other than having been done for a future release......

And I've been a long-time TBCB user (all the way back to Haffner), like yourself. And have found it to be a great SIM. However, the reality appears to be since 1.9 the AI strategy has clealry become flawed....to the point of making the TBCB SIM notion ...of "What-if" match-ups useless.....(as strategy selection does have a GREAT impact on results, as much as the ratings of fighters themselves).

[mh2365]

Okay ... but you know most of us played 2.0 for around 3 years and didn't see any of this ... maybe it was tweaked in a bad way for 2.5, I don't know but I get more than realistic outcomes in my universe ... so saying it is useless really lessens your argument.

I know you are frustrated that you don't have a fix for it right now but I think you are getting to the point of being insultive about it.


Andreas is occupied with OOTP9 for the near future ... this problem has been brought up in the beta thread as something that needs to be fixed ... going on and on about it really isn't going to get it done any faster.