Ring Strategy - Computer controlled - Is Jacked -

[Brooks TVB]

I one of my fights the other night the computer automatically put a fighter in cover up after he got hurt. The other fighter stayed in fight outside offensive which was smart because the other guy could still punch.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Brooks TVB

I one of my fights the other night the computer automatically put a fighter in cover up after he got hurt. The other fighter stayed in fight outside offensive which was smart because the other guy could still punch.

Yes - It is in automatic mode (cover-up) WHEN you have AI/Computer contorlled strageies turned ON -

However, when you have this option turned ON - You also have all the baggage of terriblly flawed strategies being given (example, Big punchers, fast starters, being told to "fight outside defensive" for 3 of the first 5 rounds........ Guys scoring KDs and then being told in the next round to "fight outside defensive", etc, etc).

In earlier versions TBCB corner AI was much more reasonable - Much more often the very static "fight normal" option was given - And where AI strategies were suggested they seemed to have made much more sense -

Bottom line is now (which you are being confused on) is when you have the AI/Computer controlled strategy turned OFF..... This is when the "cover-up" option is not automatic - A pop-box opens up each time a fighter is hurt...and asks (you the player) "do you want fighter X to cover-up or not".

This shouldn't be - There should be an automatic YES to such a quesiton - Of course when a fighter is hurt, he is going to revert to some type of "cover-up" mode or protect himself addtionally mode (that doesn't mean the doesnt' fight back some).

TBCB is a great game/SIM. However, we seem to have a flaw in one of the most important aspect of the game engine itself (that doesn't allow for a work around). Bad ratings, venues being off, lack of energic commentary, all issues such as these are very ignorable and or self-correctable......

However, when you have a game/sim engine related issue......These can only be corrected via a patch. That is where we are at.

Plain and simple. I am not running down this Sim. I love it. It has the ability to be just that......a real SIM (different from a game). However, in terms of running a universe, it has a real issue right now. In that one can't sit and watch every single round of every single fight (just in order to hit "yes", cover-up when hurt for every fighter).

[tmax11]

Is it the timing of the strategies that is an issue?

I simmed 100 fights Tyson v. Holylfield, Ali v. Frazier and Harada/Jofre these are the strategies demanded/used

Tyson/Holyfield:

Cover Up: 64/64 105/105 FI: 260/224 259/219 FO(Off): 66/45 62/41 FO(Def): 62/42 66/50 KO: 62/44 51/40 All out KO: 108/75 119/82 Cut 0/0 0/0 Round Off: 52/27 53/21

Frazier/Ali:

CU: 66/66 94-94 FI: 265/232 0/0 FO(Off): 80/49 172/141 FO(Def): 55/41 382/282 KO: 79/66 0/0 All out: 217/146 129/79 Cut: 0/0 0/0 Round Off: 109/60 103/60

Harada/Jofre:

CU: 110/110 69/69 FI: 149/127 149/126 FO(Off): 132/93 129/107 FO(Def) 225/162 276/225 KO: 104/79 94/75 All out: 309/201 274/184 Cut: 2/2 3/3 Round off: 162/66 151/74

These don't seem all that out of whack to me. I did notice that when Tyson fights an absolute nobody that the strategies change so that he fights outside defensively much more(between and third and one-half of total strategies) and seldom goes for KO. The results of these fights I ran(vs 0 rated fighters) he still won by KO 97 of 99 wins.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by tmax11

Is it the timing of the strategies that is an issue?

I simmed 100 fights Tyson v. Holylfield, Ali v. Frazier and Harada/Jofre these are the strategies demanded/used

Tyson/Holyfield:

Cover Up: 64/64 105/105 FI: 260/224 259/219 FO(Off): 66/45 62/41 FO(Def): 62/42 66/50 KO: 62/44 51/40 All out KO: 108/75 119/82 Cut 0/0 0/0 Round Off: 52/27 53/21

Yes - the timing is important - Though the strategy given is as important to, too a degree -

First clarify if you can the above - Is the first 64/64 from cover-up above - Is that 64 times Tyson was given that command (he did it 64 times), Tyson was asked to fight inside 260 (did so 224). Do I have this correct? (and the second group are Holyfields).

And what are the number of times "fight normal" were carried out? Which SHOULD be the highest - And that is the huge problem with TBCB 2.5 ....Fighting normal appears to be one of the least...

[David Ball]

This must be with high-power trainers assigned, I think. I have simulated a large number of fights between Tyson and Tunney, Satterfield, Uzcudun and Pastor, all with generic trainers, and Tyson only accepts about one-third of the inside instructions and a smaller proportion of the outside -- around two outside instructions given per ten rounds and about one outside instruction accepted per twenty rounds.

In these fights the boxers, Tunney and Pastor, never get inside instructions at all and received "All out for KO" but never "Go for KO," so I would assume the All Out are a matter of desperate measures late in a losing fight. I did not see any of these, though.

Satterfield and Tyson fought 100 fights without a single decision, by the way, and only one of the TKO's (one of three wins by Satterfield) was on cuts.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by David Ball

This must be with high-power trainers assigned, I think. I have simulated a large number of fights between Tyson and Tunney, Satterfield, Uzcudun and Pastor, all with generic trainers, and Tyson only accepts about one-third of the inside instructions and a smaller proportion of the outside -- around two outside instructions given per ten rounds and about one outside instruction accepted per twenty rounds.

I have play-tested with Tyson at much higher numbers than 1 out of 20 rounds fighting outside (be it defensive mostly). With a generic (awful) trainer - Ratings of 1 at tops -

Also, I thought within the fighters DB, if he had a rating of "zero" for saying fighting inside - That would mean, he wouldn't follow such advice from a trainer....because he was rated a "0" for number of rounds he would fight as such...

I've had Tyson fight 4 rounds out of 12 at outside defensive (following the advice).

[tmax11]

First clarify if you can the above - Is the first 64/64 from cover-up above - Is that 64 times Tyson was given that command (he did it 64 times), Tyson was asked to fight inside 260 (did so 224). Do I have this correct? (and the second group are Holyfields).

That's right. I re-ran the fights to check on normal strategy. In 100 fights they fought roughly 830 rounds. The cover up strategy is one that is probably used during a round and not at the beginning. So I took the total number of rounds and subtracted from it all the pre-round strategies. This should give the number of times a fighter was asked to fight normal. Now cover up could have been used prior to a round, but I feel that is unlikely.
Anyway here is Tyson's breakdown.

Fight Inside: 29%
Normal: 24%
All out KO: 15%
Fight outside(def): 9%
Fight outside(off): 8%
Go for KO: 8%
Take round off: 7%

Again, for whatever reason fighting against a lower rated opponent(I noticed most with fighters 3 or below) fight outside(def) is a much higher percentage, but again, the results of the fights aren't out of line.

I was using random trainers.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by tmax11

That's right. I re-ran the fights to check on normal strategy. In 100 fights they fought roughly 830 rounds. The cover up strategy is one that is probably used during a round and not at the beginning. So I took the total number of rounds and subtracted from it all the pre-round strategies. This should give the number of times a fighter was asked to fight normal. Now cover up could have been used prior to a round, but I feel that is unlikely.
Anyway here is Tyson's breakdown.

Fight Inside: 29%
Normal: 24%
All out KO: 15%
Fight outside(def): 9%
Fight outside(off): 8%
Go for KO: 8%
Take round off: 7%

Again, for whatever reason fighting against a lower rated opponent(I noticed most with fighters 3 or below) fight outside(def) is a much higher percentage, but again, the results of the fights aren't out of line.

I was using random trainers.

Those % really aren't that bad - I would agree - Not at all - Through my play-testing (be it more on a fight by fight basis) -

Are you running on the auto-scheduler? I wonder if that effects this any? As opposed to running / simming fights "live"....where you can watch - (which is how I sim within my UNI)

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by meade95

Those % really aren't that bad - I would agree - Not at all - Through my play-testing (be it more on a fight by fight basis) -

Are you running on the auto-scheduler? I wonder if that effects this any? As opposed to running / simming fights "live"....where you can watch - (which is how I sim within my UNI)

I wonder the same thing which is maybe why I haven't seen it too much because I only watch a small % of the total fights in my uni.

I still think the best fix with the current system we have would be for the fighter to not be able to use a strategy more than his rating ... so if his fight outside rating is 2 and he has already fought outside twice in the fight then he can't any more. If the corner suggests it then he fights normal.

[tmax11]

Are you running on the auto-scheduler? I wonder if that effects this any? As opposed to running / simming fights "live"....where you can watch - (which is how I sim within my UNI)

Yeah, I'm using the auto-scheduler. That may be the issue. Crazy.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

I still think the best fix with the current system we have would be for the fighter to not be able to use a strategy more than his rating ... so if his fight outside rating is 2 and he has already fought outside twice in the fight then he can't any more. If the corner suggests it then he fights normal.

Bingo - Exactly Mike - And for a long period of time, I thought this is how it was - It would certainly make the most sense -

I know Andreas is busy working his butt off on another project at the moment - When he does have time again for TBCB.....hopefully we can move toward this route -

Again, I would like to reiterate my support and overall complete satisfaction with TBCB - It is the best boxing SIM on the market bar none.....by miles.....

We get this AI/Corner strategy issue dealt with....and we are golden.....(and there are some simple solution to the current problem.....prior to even doing a complete updated overhaul).

[tmax11]

I just ran some single fights(where I watched the fight), Holyfield v. Tyson. Tyson was only asked to use fight outside(def) 1 time(he used it) in 25 rounds. Weird. Again, the only time I see this strategy used by a slugger/fight inside fighter is when he completely overmatches his opponent, in those cases he might use it 2-3 times per fight, but it doesn't affect the results.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by meade95

Bingo - Exactly Mike - And for a long period of time, I thought this is how it was - It would certainly make the most sense -

I know Andreas is busy working his butt off on another project at the moment - When he does have time again for TBCB.....hopefully we can move toward this route -

Again, I would like to reiterate my support and overall complete satisfaction with TBCB - It is the best boxing SIM on the market bar none.....by miles.....

We get this AI/Corner strategy issue dealt with....and we are golden.....(and there are some simple solution to the current problem.....prior to even doing a complete updated overhaul).

I always thought it was like this also ... I seriously never saw a problem in the fights I did watch in 2.0 ... so maybe it was something that changed in 2.5

[David Ball]

I guess I may be seeing lower Fight Outside numbers because I've been watching matchups between good (mostly very good) opponents. The trainers may be more sensitive to circumstances, especially the caliber of the opponents, than I thought.

For myself, I agree with a lot of the suggestions and complaints that have been made, but I am going to continue to use the strategies. Even in their imperfect state, I feel that as long as you don't use overly effective trainers, the strategies give a flavor and rhythmn to a fight without influencing the results unduly or inappropriately. They also let me intervene occasionally to do interesting things. Sometimes I do somthing I think will help a fighter win his fight, but I will also occasionally have one carry a lesser opponent or try to survive to a losing decision with his dignity and brain cells intact, rather than risking both trying for a late round KO.

Merely by forcing Take a Round Off a lot on his opponents, I was able to push Primo Carnera's career a lot farther than it would ordinarily have gone in one universe. As an experiment, I have even tried having both of fighters take every round off in order to simulate a bout in which neither fighter is taking much of an interest except in his paycheck. This really does produce a boring fight, and I don't know that I would recommend trying it. But all these things happen in reality and if you're trying to model the real world in your universe, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have a tool that helps you simulate them.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by David Ball

Merely by forcing Take a Round Off a lot on his opponents, I was able to push Primo Carnera's career a lot farther than it would ordinarily have gone in one universe. As an experiment, I have even tried having both of fighters take every round off in order to simulate a bout in which neither fighter is taking much of an interest except in his paycheck. This really does produce a boring fight, and I don't know that I would recommend trying it. But all these things happen in reality and if you're trying to model the real world in your universe, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have a tool that helps you simulate them.

I like this aspect as well - brings another level of depth to TBCB -

I need to take back my "useless" comment regarding TBCB 2.5 - That really wasn't fair, and more importantly not accurate -

With that said, there are a couple clear paths to fixing (or imporving) the current strategy selection procress - Hopefully they are part of the next patch down the road -

[Cap]

This is just anecdotal. I created a test fighter for another purpose and had him fight Jack O'Halloran (intelligence @ 4) in an eight rounder. The test guy was a boxer modeled along the lines of Tony Tubbs, had average intelligence about 8, and both used generic trainers. At the end of the eight, amongst other things, I noticed that the test fighter's corner had asked him to do only one thing, fight outside defensively, and he had only listened once out of seven times in the fight. O'Halloran's corner had asked for a bunch of different things during the fight, and he seemed to listen most of the time.

Cap

[meade95]

Ok - After further play-testing - The Computer AI (thus the ability to SIM fights while watching) is flawed beyond belief - TBCB 1.0 was much more resonable and reliable - TBCB 2.5 is flawed absolutely terribly -

Sad truth - but the bottom line - And when one understands that corner strategies have a LARGE impact on all fights simmed.......One must recognize how flawed plenty of results people are having in their universes (fictional or not)....

Now, I am speaking to actual SIMMED fights (not the auto-simmed fights as maybe the AI engine works differently there) - In my UNI all fights are simmed live -

The situation I have found is if you use a terrible corner person (generic or worse, who gives no strategy (0)) to try and offset the computer /AI itself -

If you use a cornerman / Trainer like this....the advice to "Take a round off" is used constantly - I have witnessed Jeff Fenech being told (and agreeing to) "take a round off" in 5 out of 12 rounds....(in numerous fights) - Absoulutely ridiculous - Bordering on something we would see out of an Arcade type EA/Sports game....

Now, if you give a fighter a better rated corner man - The foolishness of "take a round off" seems to reduce itself.....however, the "go all out for the KO" seems to replace it. Where this advice is given round after around after round (foolishness).

THIS MUST BE FIXED - I understand that Andreas is working on another project - Well, I own a business myself and I work on multiple projects all the time - And when I've got a FKED up situation for a customer that I have given him......I don't have the luxury of simply saying.....Wait until I am done with my "new customer" and I'll get back to that. No joy! No, I bust my ass and make sure both are done as quickly as possible.

The first (quick fix) would be for customers to have the option of using "NO STRATEIGES" while at the same time having the "cover-up" mode AUTOMATICALLY turn on when a fighter is hurt (not make us sit there and hit the "OK" button each and every time).

That is the quick fix - That is a stop-gap until it can be looked into further -

The next step is to do as Mike suggested - Simply make a fighter ONLY capable of fighting the styles which are assoicated to him - Be it TWICE (2) fight inside, (3) Fight-outside, (1) Take a round off, and (2) Go for KO, for example.....

Also make the "fight normal" option....Given much more often by the AI corner - Which is how it was done in TBCB 1.0 to 1.9.

[mh2365]

I've brought this to Andreas's attention several times now but nothing is going to be done about it until at least OOTP9 is released. No matter how many times the same information is posted.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by mh2365

I've brought this to Andreas's attention several times now but nothing is going to be done about it until at least OOTP9 is released. No matter how many times the same information is posted.

Well then - This needs to be sticky or kept near the top so all potential new customers understand what they are buying......A SIM in which a large varible within the SIM engine itself is terribly flawed - At least for now - Until a quick-fix-patch is put out....or a full remodel of this aspect of TBCB is released -

[Ric915]

In running my new uni I have noticed a few times when the losing fighter goes all out and gets dropped his cover up doesn't kick in, he gets up and is still going all out. I've noticed this a few times.