Ranking Joe Frazier

[SWardle]

Originally Posted by meade95

Umm, that was an "aged" (clearly post-prime Holyfield, regardless of if you liked him as a fighter or not, that is a reality)...and that Holyfied went 1-1 with a prime Lennox - Lennox won their first fight and Holyfield won the second....(the judges were a joke for both....but that is sports)......A prime Holyfield would without question been able to keep up a higher punch count, had the legs to cut off the ring better and had faster hands too boot (than the older version that faced Lennox).

The original poster said that Holyfield proved everyone wrong against Lewis and Bowe. I'm not taking into account his age because it's not an issue with what was being discussed. It's hard to prove everyone wrong with your record is 1-3-1. The lone victory is questionable, too. As a matter of fact I think it was a split decision, no? Been awhile since I watched the bout. I haven't watched Lewis/Holyfield since they originally aired. I'm currently working on getting the Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield career collections and then I'll be able to watch the bouts and be a little more judgmental on what I saw. I was solely a specatator when I watched them initially and can't really remember a lot about them. Maybe Holyfield did deserve the decision in the secound bout, I don't know. Wouldn't be the first time I thought the judges were wrong. I just can't comment on that since I don't recall the match vividly enough.

What I do know is the Bowe fights are fresh in my memory since I watched them recently and I take Bowe in all three matches.

Historic top 10 lists are fun and all.....but they change like the wind every 3 or 4 years......depending on what is in fashion.

I never do them. I haven't watched the fights of every great boxer yet. I'm currently building my collection but as of right now, I don't know enough about every boxer out there to really give an accurate top 10. If I throw Jack Dempsey on my list it'd be on sheer reputation. Joe Louis too, at this point. Although I have a Joe Louis collection (44 fights) being pressed and packaged to ship to me any day now. Besides, there's so many different ways you can rank fighters. I personally like to evaluate them on their peak. So many boxers fight chumps early on and at the end of their careers they get beaten by chumps. I like to take the 4-5 peak years and evaluate them only by that. Which would reflect well on a guy like Tyson. Meanwhile, other people like to take a boxers whole career into account. Then you get into the whole argument of who actually beat who. Like, I think Frazier is better than Foreman despite Foreman beating Frazier twice. Foreman won those bouts and Frazier was largely helpless but it had more to do with Foreman's size than anything. When it comes to heart, skill, defense, determination and boxing ability Frazier was hands down the better fighter. Foreman was just born six inches taller (at least) with a massive reach and was strong as an ox. That tends to off-set a lot of ability.

[SWardle]

Sorry for the double post. Delete if you wish.

[Jersey-Jim]

Tyson's career was like a meteor. He burned hot and bright and then burned out. He lasted on top longer than Frazier and many others, though.

At his very best he had the speed and power to stop just about anyone. After he fired Kevin Rooney and signed on with Don King, he slowly erored away into a sideshow. Like Jack Dempsey, at his ferocious best, he could beat almost anyone on the right night.

Originally Posted by SWardle

So did Ali. So did Foreman. So did every other boxer when they started out. Ali didn't step right out of the gym in Louisville, KY and start fighting Sonny Liston. I've never understood this about Tyson detractors. Did he fight some chumps? Most certainly. But name a boxer that fought great boxers in their first 10-15 bouts. I can't name many.




I have the entire Tyson fight collection and I can't recall him ever throwing an intentional low blow out of frustration. He was warned a few times for low blows because he was significantly shorter than some of his opponents and he liked to get inside and work the body. Sometimes he'd catch his opponent low. I don't ever recall him just winding up and drilling a dude low because he was frustrated, though. Now, he did throw elbows when inside but he was no different in that regard than Ali and Holyfield. Holyfield used his head and elbows better than any other boxer I've ever seen. I just didn't watch the same fights you watched if you saw Tyson throwing intentional low blows. I never saw that.



Opinions vary, no harm in that. I think Tyson has been the victim of a pretty bad rap lately. Who was he supposed to fight and beat? It's not like he shied away from any of the top contenders during his day. Who did he dodge? Tyson's career ultimately must include his spiral out of control and looking at his entire career, I may tend to agree he's not top 10. If he is, he's near the bottom of my top 10 list. His prime, however... I drop him in the ring with _anyone_ other than a prime George Foreman and expect a good chance of victory. Any great fighter can beat another on any given night... but I'd like my odds with prime Tyson vs anyone other than Big George. I think Tyson's style plays right into the hand of Foreman. I wouldn't expect Tyson to last more than 3-4 rounds with him.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by SWardle

The original poster said that Holyfield proved everyone wrong against Lewis and Bowe. I'm not taking into account his age because it's not an issue with what was being discussed. It's hard to prove everyone wrong with your record is 1-3-1. The lone victory is questionable, too. As a matter of fact I think it was a split decision, no? Been awhile since I watched the bout. I haven't watched Lewis/Holyfield since they originally aired. I'm currently working on getting the Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield career collections and then I'll be able to watch the bouts and be a little more judgmental on what I saw. I was solely a specatator when I watched them initially and can't really remember a lot about them. Maybe Holyfield did deserve the decision in the secound bout, I don't know. Wouldn't be the first time I thought the judges were wrong. I just can't comment on that since I don't recall the match vividly enough.

What I do know is the Bowe fights are fresh in my memory since I watched them recently and I take Bowe in all three matches.



I never do them. I haven't watched the fights of every great boxer yet. I'm currently building my collection but as of right now, I don't know enough about every boxer out there to really give an accurate top 10. If I throw Jack Dempsey on my list it'd be on sheer reputation. Joe Louis too, at this point. Although I have a Joe Louis collection (44 fights) being pressed and packaged to ship to me any day now. Besides, there's so many different ways you can rank fighters. I personally like to evaluate them on their peak. So many boxers fight chumps early on and at the end of their careers they get beaten by chumps. I like to take the 4-5 peak years and evaluate them only by that. Which would reflect well on a guy like Tyson. Meanwhile, other people like to take a boxers whole career into account. Then you get into the whole argument of who actually beat who. Like, I think Frazier is better than Foreman despite Foreman beating Frazier twice. Foreman won those bouts and Frazier was largely helpless but it had more to do with Foreman's size than anything. When it comes to heart, skill, defense, determination and boxing ability Frazier was hands down the better fighter. Foreman was just born six inches taller (at least) with a massive reach and was strong as an ox. That tends to off-set a lot of ability.

Agree with much of what you've said here - Good post -

As for Bowe Vs Holyfield II - It was a Maj Dec for Holyfield -

Judges are part of the sport.....the good and the bad...(and we all question plenty of their decisions, that is just part of the game.......same holds true for all sports. Big calls, blown Ref calls have decided plenty of Playoff games....or so it would seem at the time).

But in boxing, because judges can make errors (and do!) the best result is to try and end the fight before it gets there......if you do that, you take thier questionable judgement out of the equation....

[Mad Bomber]

One thing I do love is the passion that comes out during a good discussion.
But I would be interested in finding out where you got the 44 fight Joe Louis
collection, as I have a 24 fight collection, but half of the fights are hi-lite
packages.


Greg

[CONN CHRIS]

I'd be interested in that too Greg! Coming up with an all-time top ten group is tough enough but splitting hairs over how to slot them (or even worse, the top five) is a tricky business.

I always stumble over how high to place Holmes. At first blush, I can't see a prime Holmes winning over Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier or whoever else but I also have a hard time convincing myself that the early eighties Holmes jab couldn't have nutralized any one of them and won the day.

[IceTea]

my top ten:

1- Dempsey
2- Marciano
3- Louis
4- Tunney
5- Ali
6- Johnson
7- Holmes
8- Frazier
9- Lewis
10- Foreman

I've been re-rating all of the heavyweights in the game.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I'd be interested in that too Greg! Coming up with an all-time top ten group is tough enough but splitting hairs over how to slot them (or even worse, the top five) is a tricky business.

I always stumble over how high to place Holmes. At first blush, I can't see a prime Holmes winning over Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier or whoever else but I also have a hard time convincing myself that the early eighties Holmes jab couldn't have nutralized any one of them and won the day.

That's true - A prime Holmes jab would keep him in there with any of the ATGs -

[Mad Bomber]

Very well put guys, Larry Holmes jab was among the best of all time, and it was more powerful than Ali's, whereas Ali had a cutting jab, Holmes had a jab that was punishing along the lines of Louis,Liston and Foreman.IMO


Greg

[meade95]

My Top 10 ....in no particular order.....if I had to put one together......

Dempsey
Marciano
Louis
Holyfield
Ali
Johnson
Holmes
Frazier
Foreman

With either Tyson or Lewis filling it out. I could see Bowe having made this list as well had he carried on with his career......in a determined manner...

[SWardle]

To those wanting the Joe Louis collection, or any collection, here you go although I was incorrect, it's 37 fights and a few special features discs w/ interviews etc... (all full):

Joe Louis Career Boxing Collection 37 Fights on 9 DVD's - BOXERS K - N

I have yet to received my Louis collection so I can't speak to the VQ of it but I do know every match they have on there is full. I asked before making my first two orders. So far I have purchased:

Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Sugar Ray Leonard
Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe

I've done the special combo of 3 for $99 twice. So far, I've really liked the VQ and quality and they haven't burned me yet. Some of the older fights have grainy VQ like the REALLY old Ali fights but I believe their VQ is the best you're gonna find anywhere. They have just about every boxer, too. They ship fast as well.

[Mad Bomber]

Thanks, SW. I have previously ordered from a site Blood,Sweat and Tears
Boxing Videos, and I have also yet to have any problems.

They have a larger selection, but as I said before the fights I have of Joe Louis only number 24, and I am always looking to add to my collection, as it will give me something to do when I take my early retirement in about five after what will have been almost 31 years in the News & Sports department.


Greg

[SWardle]

Well, Boxing Junkies only sells full fights from what they told me prior to my first order. So far everything they have sold me has been full fights. So hopefully you can beef up some of those highlight fights you have of Louis, too.

It'd be nice if someone would release this stuff commercially and remastered and everything. Anyway, you're welcome.

[SWardle]

Ouch, just checked out BST and they're expensive. Heh. I think you'll be really happy if you buy this Louis collection if you paid $100 for mainly highlights.

[Mad Bomber]

Always looking for a good price, as I also have to deal with the exchange rate. Our dollar has been in good shape in the last couple of years, but the projections are for a .90 dollar by the end of next year.

Greg

[Ric915]

Originally Posted by SWardle

To those wanting the Joe Louis collection, or any collection, here you go although I was incorrect, it's 37 fights and a few special features discs w/ interviews etc... (all full):

Joe Louis Career Boxing Collection 37 Fights on 9 DVD's - BOXERS K - N

I have yet to received my Louis collection so I can't speak to the VQ of it but I do know every match they have on there is full. I asked before making my first two orders. So far I have purchased:

Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Sugar Ray Leonard
Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe

I've done the special combo of 3 for $99 twice. So far, I've really liked the VQ and quality and they haven't burned me yet. Some of the older fights have grainy VQ like the REALLY old Ali fights but I believe their VQ is the best you're gonna find anywhere. They have just about every boxer, too. They ship fast as well.

Great site already getting a list going

[CONN CHRIS]

Greg:

I had never checked out Blood, Sweat & Tears - they have an impressive selection!

Thank you,

Christopher

[CONN CHRIS]

And of course, they have nothing on Chartchai Chionoi. No one does.


Edit - found 1 - his KO12 to Ohba.

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I'd be interested in that too Greg! Coming up with an all-time top ten group is tough enough but splitting hairs over how to slot them (or even worse, the top five) is a tricky business.

I always stumble over how high to place Holmes. At first blush, I can't see a prime Holmes winning over Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier or whoever else but I also have a hard time convincing myself that the early eighties Holmes jab couldn't have nutralized any one of them and won the day.

As hard as it is rating a top ten, you can probably safely say that any of the top ten fighters would have the skill any ability to beat any of the other top ten fighters on a given night. That takes some of the pressure away from rating one guy above another. Plus that takes into account the styles thing that gives certain fighters natural advantages over others.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

And of course, they have nothing on Chartchai Chionoi. No one does.


Edit - found 1 - his KO12 to Ohba.

Christopher, Ohba was a terrific fighter who much the same as Salvador Sanchez met an untimely death at the tender age of 23, also in a car accident.

Greg