Ranking Joe Frazier

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by meade95

I will also say the more I look back on Ali's career.....The more of late I tend to lift is value. I soured on him for awhile.......but the more I relook...rewatch....evaluate......The man was special....of course an ATG......and maybe #1......I can see the debate for him.....

At the same time....When a Prime Frazier faced a Prime Ali......Fraizer won that big one.....

The tragedy and the beauty of Ali's career is that most of his great matches occurred after his prime years. At age 25 he was stripped of his license to fight and was 29 when he faced Frazier the first fight. His two fights vs Quarry and Bonavena were not enough to get him ready for that fight. That he knocked Oscar down 3 times in a round to end the fight probably gave the impression he was ready for Frazier. He wasn't. In 1967 he was the fastest heavyweight ever with reflexes never seen before in that weight class. He had to re-invent himself and work with what he had, which was still a lot, but not enough to be the same fighter he was before the 3 1/2 year layoff. That fighter would have probably won a lopsided decision that night.

[stevebydac]

Originally Posted by nelsth

The tragedy and the beauty of Ali's career is that most of his great matches occurred after his prime years. At age 25 he was stripped of his license to fight and was 29 when he faced Frazier the first fight. His two fights vs Quarry and Bonavena were not enough to get him ready for that fight. That he knocked Oscar down 3 times in a round to end the fight probably gave the impression he was ready for Frazier. He wasn't. In 1967 he was the fastest heavyweight ever with reflexes never seen before in that weight class. He had to re-invent himself and work with what he had, which was still a lot, but not enough to be the same fighter he was before the 3 1/2 year layoff. That fighter would have probably won a lopsided decision that night.

I disagree with your last sentence. He was 29, not 39 or 49. 29 is right in a fighter's prime - stop falling to the company line of Ali apologists. Perhaps without a long layoff he would have given Frazier a tougher fight, perhaps even won. But Ali winning a lopsided decision that night?? No way.

A big part of his problem that evening was that he had never been stalked so relentlessly by a man before, and never hit so hard so often. He looked "older" in large part because Frazier was viciously beating the youth out of him for 15 rounds. Give Smokin' Joe his due.

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by stevebydac

I disagree with your last sentence. He was 29, not 39 or 49. 29 is right in a fighter's prime - stop falling to the company line of Ali apologists. Perhaps without a long layoff he would have given Frazier a tougher fight, perhaps even won. But Ali winning a lopsided decision that night?? No way.

A big part of his problem that evening was that he had never been stalked so relentlessly by a man before, and never hit so hard so often. He looked "older" in large part because Frazier was viciously beating the youth out of him for 15 rounds. Give Smokin' Joe his due.

I was referring to the 25year old Ali. Had he been boxing regularly during that time 29 would possibly had been a peak year of his abilities. The age of 29 is not a prime year for a boxer who has spent 3 1/2 years out of the ring with his mind on many other things other than boxing. Take any athlete who is as dependent on his foot speed and sit him down for nearly 4 years and he or she will not have the legs they had before, especially not if he had to take on his toughest opponent since Liston. Other than the fastest hands in boxing, he also had the legs to dance away from stalkers and keep them chasing him. He needs no apologies for not being in top condition and it's no knock on Joe, but the best of Muhammed Ali was BEFORE he refused to be inducted. Still, it was what it was and Joe earned the win (I didnt remember him beating the youth out of him) and is a top 10 ATG in my book.

[SWardle]

I wonder why Mike Tyson doesn't get a "token" credit for his loss to Holyfield. Considering that prior to that match he had fought 4 rounds in five years. Either way, Frazier pummeled Ali in that first bout. I'll give Ali all of the credit in the world as having an incredible chin (although part of me wonders if he has paid for it in the end with his post-boxing condition) but he definitely got the crap beat out of him in that bout.

After watching Ali's career I'm kind of eh on him. The Liston fights seemed... odd. Liston was doing just fine in that first match and then quits on his stool because of shoulder pain? The second match with Liston was EXTREMELY weird. Liston went down from a punch that looked run of the mill. In fact, it's hard to tell if it even connected. Liston goes down on the mat and lays there for like 30 seconds. Joe Walcott, the ref, didn't know what the heck to do. Definitely the weiredest finish I've seen in boxing. That on top of some questionable judge decisions in Frazier II and Norton II, it makes me value Ali's career less than most. I was impressed with him in the third Frazier bout and against Foreman. Out of all the Ali matches I watched that's the only times I was like, damn, this guy is good. The Liston fights seemed odd and I dare say, rigged. No one will ever convince me he beat Norton and Frazier in the II bouts, either.

Ultimately, that's my biggest gripe with Ali. All but one of his quality wins in his career were decisions or Liston taking a dive. I know Ali fans will rip into this post but I'll only give the man his due where it's required. I ask everyone to watch that Liston II match.

Anyway, Ali had an incredible chin and excellent hand and footspeed. But I don't see him as the "greatest" or "the best" or anything like that.

[SWardle]

YouTube - Muhammad Ali vs Sonny Liston (1965)

Look at that absurdity. Liston rolled over on the canvas and waited for Walcott to count, too. The first bout was just as questionable even if it wasn't as OBVIOUS.

I just have a hard time buying the hype as "greatest ever" when Ali has the Liston fights, Frazier II and Norton II as marquee wins on his resume and they're all controversial. Shouldn't the greatest ever be laying waste to boxers and putting them down and out without any doubt? Ali only did that with Foreman who was totally gassed after the fourth round. To his credit, Ali finished the deal and withstood a hell of a beating in that match.

Another angle: YouTube - Boxing Muhammad Ali vs Sonny Liston II Phantom Punch

[Syd Thrift]

I think it's pretty obvious what happened in Liston-Ali I. Liston's trainer, almost certainly with the approval of Liston, rubbed something on his gloves and Liston in turn got it into Ali's eyes. Ali was screaming in his corner for Angelo Dundee to take his gloves off in between I think the 5th and 6th rounds. After Ali evaded Liston for a round, he got the stuff out of his eyes and you can literally see him in the 7th rubbing his gloves against Liston's and then throwing "jabs" that were more his pushing his glove around Liston's face. It's a pretty much open/shut thing that Ali got that "liniment" off Liston's glove and into his eyes. This freaked out Liston and he retired on his stool rather than take some of the stuff he dealt out.

That's pretty much exactly what Ali was about, for better or for worse. If he saw an edge, he would use it. If he saw someone breaking the rules, he'd break the same ones, whether to try to get the ref to start calling the cheating (as in the Chuck Wepner fight) or, well, just to win a fight (as in a lot of his later fights where he'd make a habit of pulling down on his opponents' necks - granted that he was generally the instigator in this).

The second fight just looked to me like Liston was there for a paycheck and, after he got knocked down, just didn't want to get abused in the ring anymore. I've seen the punch and it didn't look like much, but that can also be because the entire force of it was absorbed by the punchee's body or head. The Jersey Joe Walcott hit on Ezzard Charles springs to mind (or Rocky on Walcott, for that matter; Walcott sure reacted to it like it was a big punch but compared with, say, some of the shots the Rock landed on Don Cockell it looked like he pulled that little hook out of his pocket). Generally speaking, I think things like thrown fights tend to get known about when they happen, like with Willie Pep or Carmen Basilio or (famously) Jake LaMotta. I'm not saying nobody laid down in the 60s. I'm just not convinced that Liston did in that 2nd fight. At least not because he threw it.

[Syd Thrift]

dola,

Just rewatched the entire 2nd fight on YouTube (all 2 minutes of it). I think it's also pretty obvious that Liston was responding to Walcott and was going to get up on 9. In fact, he did get up pretty quickly after one of Walcott's counts but if memory serves me correctly the editor of Ring magazine then motioned Jersey Joe over to him and told him that Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds.

My conclusions:

- The fight shouldn't have been stopped and in fact this fight is a great argument for allowing referees to be referees.

- Liston certainly looked like he was willing to fight afterwards (in the sense that he was willing to plod around and continue to miss Ali with just about everything he threw).

- If there was anything not on the up and up it would have had something to do with Nat Fleischer.

[CONN CHRIS]

With respect to the original post, a bit on Frazier that ran on ESPN last fall. Perhaps someone here didn't see it.

ESPN - Frazier's pain, anger remains years after trilogy - Boxing

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

With respect to the original post, a bit on Frazier that ran on ESPN last fall. Perhaps someone here didn't see it.

ESPN - Frazier's pain, anger remains years after trilogy - Boxing

This is a must read for anyone who admires Joe Frazier. As a fan of both fighters, I always thought Joe got the very short end of the stick in that Ali started out as the hated outcast while Frazier was the hard working son of a sharecropper who worked his way up the ladder to become champ. The ironies abound with him helping Ali out during his exile and being thrown under bus during Ali's sales pitches. He was painted as the white man's n***** by Ali when in fact Frazier led the tougher life, dirt poor in Beaufort, SC. Ali was raised middle class but due to the social and political aspects of his refusal to join the army, he evolved into the people's champ. I've always felt for Joe and his family... his being painted "white" and a political tool when all he did was knock opponents into the middle of next week and be a good family man. Ali suffered from not having a great white hope like Gerry Cooney (what kind of sale could he have made with the Klitchko brothers!?) to promote tickets, so he did what he could do to link Joe to the white power structure of the time... a brilliant move that would have made Gorgeous George or P.T. Barnum proud. It's not like he didn't insult other opponents (Liston was the bear, Patterson was the rabbit), but calling Frazier a gorilla (rhymed with Manilla) and attacking him racially was personal and cruel even for those times. Another irony is that if you ask most people who the best fighter out of Philadelphia was, they would most likely say Rocky Balboa!



Since 1980 the statue from the Rocky movies has been at the top of the steps of the art museum and most recently at the Wachovia Spectrum in South Philly. Since 1965, Smokin' Joe Frazier Lived in and fought out of Philadelphia and was the standard of the "Philadelphia" fighter. He knocked the "Greatest" on his butt and had to be restrained from coming out of his corner for round 15 with both eyes virtually swollen shut! What does he have to show for it in Philadelphia? A backseat to the "Italian Stallion"? I can really understand his bitterness. It is especially sad to see that Joe has to point out Ali's current physical state as being a result of his three fight punishment of him. His name will never be as known as Ali's unless the question of who his greatest opponent is comes up. He is a top 10 ATG just for what he has had to endure as a person.

[Jersey-Jim]

I feel sorry for Frazier, but not because Ali made him feel like a second class human being. I feel sorry for him because he allowed that to happen. He beat Ali in the Fight of the Century. He lost a fairly uneventful second fight by close decision and then lost the Thrilla by a hair.

Had he not let bitterness get to him, he could have become a very popular ex-champion. Look at Foreman. His 2nd career revealed a different personality all together. True, Frazier didn't make that kind of comeback, but he could have become a likeable marketable personality with the little effort.

So yeah, I feel sorry that he allowed himself to be dragged down by all that crap.

He was the Heavyweight Champion of the World. He won the official "Fight of the Century." He had Ali on the brink of surrender.

His only losses were to Ali and Foreman.

He has some good wins and names on his ledger:
Jimmy Ellis
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Ali
Joe Bugner
Bob Foster
Buster Mathis
George Chuvalo
Doug Jones (Who lost a questionable decision to Ali)
Eddie Machen

He's in the Boxing Hall of Fame.

He should be remember because of his accomplishments in the ring. But the bitterness thing it's like a self-fufilling prophecy perhaps? The more he feels he's being ignored - the more he's ignored. It's too bad.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally Posted by nelsth

This is a must read for anyone who admires Joe Frazier. As a fan of both fighters, I always thought Joe got the very short end of the stick in that Ali started out as the hated outcast while Frazier was the hard working son of a sharecropper who worked his way up the ladder to become champ. The ironies abound with him helping Ali out during his exile and being thrown under bus during Ali's sales pitches. He was painted as the white man's n***** by Ali when in fact Frazier led the tougher life, dirt poor in Beaufort, SC. Ali was raised middle class but due to the social and political aspects of his refusal to join the army, he evolved into the people's champ. I've always felt for Joe and his family... his being painted "white" and a political tool when all he did was knock opponents into the middle of next week and be a good family man. Ali suffered from not having a great white hope like Gerry Cooney (what kind of sale could he have made with the Klitchko brothers!?) to promote tickets, so he did what he could do to link Joe to the white power structure of the time... a brilliant move that would have made Gorgeous George or P.T. Barnum proud. It's not like he didn't insult other opponents (Liston was the bear, Patterson was the rabbit), but calling Frazier a gorilla (rhymed with Manilla) and attacking him racially was personal and cruel even for those times. Another irony is that if you ask most people who the best fighter out of Philadelphia was, they would most likely say Rocky Balboa!



Since 1980 the statue from the Rocky movies has been at the top of the steps of the art museum and most recently at the Wachovia Spectrum in South Philly. Since 1965, Smokin' Joe Frazier Lived in and fought out of Philadelphia and was the standard of the "Philadelphia" fighter. He knocked the "Greatest" on his butt and had to be restrained from coming out of his corner for round 15 with both eyes virtually swollen shut! What does he have to show for it in Philadelphia? A backseat to the "Italian Stallion"? I can really understand his bitterness. It is especially sad to see that Joe has to point out Ali's current physical state as being a result of his three fight punishment of him. His name will never be as known as Ali's unless the question of who his greatest opponent is comes up. He is a top 10 ATG just for what he has had to endure as a person.

Great article.

Greg

[Syd Thrift]

Like it or not, Frazier will always be remembered for two things:

1. The Thrilla in Manila, which I agree was maybe the best fight of all time, and
2. DOWN GOES FRAZIER! DOWN GOES FRAZIER!

Thing is, he lost both fights. It puts his name up there with... Michael Moorer, a man who is probably best known for losing to George Foreman and Evander Holyfield. Don't get me wrong, I think that Frazier was a better fighter than Moorer (although the 90s are very, very underrated for heavyweights IMO) but the public perception of their careers are similar.

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

I feel sorry for Frazier, but not because Ali made him feel like a second class human being. I feel sorry for him because he allowed that to happen. He beat Ali in the Fight of the Century. He lost a fairly uneventful second fight by close decision and then lost the Thrilla by a hair.

Had he not let bitterness get to him, he could have become a very popular ex-champion. Look at Foreman. His 2nd career revealed a different personality all together. True, Frazier didn't make that kind of comeback, but he could have become a likeable marketable personality with the little effort.

So yeah, I feel sorry that he allowed himself to be dragged down by all that crap.

He was the Heavyweight Champion of the World. He won the official "Fight of the Century." He had Ali on the brink of surrender.

His only losses were to Ali and Foreman.

He has some good wins and names on his ledger:
Jimmy Ellis
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Ali
Joe Bugner
Bob Foster
Buster Mathis
George Chuvalo
Doug Jones (Who lost a questionable decision to Ali)
Eddie Machen

He's in the Boxing Hall of Fame.

He should be remember because of his accomplishments in the ring. But the bitterness thing it's like a self-fufilling prophecy perhaps? The more he feels he's being ignored - the more he's ignored. It's too bad.

I'm sorry, but I just can't let this pass. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Are you saying that Joe Frazier let this happen to him? And do you really think George Foreman went through anything close to Frazier's humiliation by Ali? Foreman's biggest problem was losing a fight and his title where he was the overwhelming favorite. As significant as the Zaire fight was, losing in a big upset is nothing new. Foreman lost his belt and his aura of invinciblity as did Frazier in Jamaica. This is a part of boxing and boxers are expected to live with it as part of what happens in the profession. What Foreman did not lose was his dignity and respect as a black man living in a racially polarized society during the 1970's. While Foreman's later transformation was/is remarkable, he did not have to deal with anonymous death threats to him and his family by idiots who bought into Ali's rhetoric and considered Joe to be an "uncle tom" and a race traitor. He didn't find himself attacked on personal levels that none of Ali's other opponents had to deal with. Name calling was a very small part of Ali's reckless assault on Frazier's social character. When he taunted Liston it was his ability to beat him that he questioned... his slow feet, etc. He never attacked Liston racially... or Foreman... or Norton.

The fact is, Frazier tried to help Ali during his exile... even gave him money to help him out. Ali betrayed him in ways he never expected, all to sell tickets. The attacks on his racial character cut deep into a man who tried to help him when he was down. I believe the worst thing one black person can say to another black person is to call them an "uncle tom". To see Ali today get all the accolades while he (Frazier) remains a footnote in boxing history seems to be a lot to say he (Frazier) should just get over and not be bitter. I think we as boxing fans would like to see a great fighter like Joe Frazier enjoy his retirement. I just don't see this being his fault... that he let this happen to him (the bitter feelings). What should he have done?

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by nelsth

I'm sorry, but I just can't let this pass. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Are you saying that Joe Frazier let this happen to him? And do you really think George Foreman went through anything close to Frazier's humiliation by Ali? Foreman's biggest problem was losing a fight and his title where he was the overwhelming favorite. As significant as the Zaire fight was, losing in a big upset is nothing new. Foreman lost his belt and his aura of invinciblity as did Frazier in Jamaica. This is a part of boxing and boxers are expected to live with it as part of what happens in the profession. What Foreman did not lose was his dignity and respect as a black man living in a racially polarized society during the 1970's. While Foreman's later transformation was/is remarkable, he did not have to deal with anonymous death threats to him and his family by idiots who bought into Ali's rhetoric and considered Joe to be an "uncle tom" and a race traitor. He didn't find himself attacked on personal levels that none of Ali's other opponents had to deal with. Name calling was a very small part of Ali's reckless assault on Frazier's social character. When he taunted Liston it was his ability to beat him that he questioned... his slow feet, etc. He never attacked Liston racially... or Foreman... or Norton.

The fact is, Frazier tried to help Ali during his exile... even gave him money to help him out. Ali betrayed him in ways he never expected, all to sell tickets. The attacks on his racial character cut deep into a man who tried to help him when he was down. I believe the worst thing one black person can say to another black person is to call them an "uncle tom". To see Ali today get all the accolades while he (Frazier) remains a footnote in boxing history seems to be a lot to say he (Frazier) should just get over and not be bitter. I think we as boxing fans would like to see a great fighter like Joe Frazier enjoy his retirement. I just don't see this being his fault... that he let this happen to him (the bitter feelings). What should he have done?

Joe needs to take a page from Ken Norton's book who also hated Ali. Norton said, "I hated the guy for a while and then thought, hey, I made a lot of money and became famous because I fought Ali."

It's been over 30 years and Joe would be a much happier man if he just let the Ali thing go. He beat him in the Fight of the Century, lost a close decision the second time and had Ali on the verge of retiring in the corner when Eddie Futch stopped the fight.

I wouldn't blame Frazier for feeling the way he does if this were 1975. But we're in 2008 now. There's a lot of people who've had a lot worse done to them and have put it behind them. He can too if he wants to.

[SWardle]

Originally Posted by SWardle

To those wanting the Joe Louis collection, or any collection, here you go although I was incorrect, it's 37 fights and a few special features discs w/ interviews etc... (all full):

Joe Louis Career Boxing Collection 37 Fights on 9 DVD's - BOXERS K - N

I have yet to received my Louis collection so I can't speak to the VQ of it but I do know every match they have on there is full. I asked before making my first two orders. So far I have purchased:

Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Sugar Ray Leonard
Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe

I've done the special combo of 3 for $99 twice. So far, I've really liked the VQ and quality and they haven't burned me yet. Some of the older fights have grainy VQ like the REALLY old Ali fights but I believe their VQ is the best you're gonna find anywhere. They have just about every boxer, too. They ship fast as well.

I got my Joe Louis collection today. I've have watched three fights so far and I'm currently watching the Omelio Agramonte (sp?) fight. Even on my 46" HDTV which tends to fuzz up a lot of old recordings, these things look brilliant! I mean, yeah, it's not crystal clear seeing as the footage is 50 years old but it's amazing!

Yet again, Boxing Junkies brings the goods. I've yet to be disappointed.

[professordp]

The finish of Ali-Liston II will be forever debated--without resolution. Sort of ranks up there with the events of November 22, 1963. But I do think that Liston gave it his best shot in the first fight. Ali was just too much for him. A couple of things to consider.

1) How old was Liston? Nobody is really certain. I've read some accounts that said Liston became an old man while the fight progressed. Sort of like Cinderella's coach turning into a pumpkin at Midnight.

2) There have been allegations concerning substance abuse--hard booze and heroin. Once again, we'll never know for certain what role, if any, this played in Liston's demise.

3) Did Ali get inside Liston's head? For six years (1958-1964), Liston tore up the division. Only Eddie Machen was able to go the distance with him (1960). The rest of his opponenets were destroyed. Many suggest that fear played a role in Patterson's two losses to Liston. Ali showed complete disdain for Liston. Was this also a factor?

4) Blood and bruises. In the first fight, Ali beat Liston up pretty badly. It has been suggested that Liston was one of those fighters who freaked at the sight of his own blood. If you've seen the 1970 Leotis Martin fight, you get a sense that Liston just wanted to stay down in the 9th round, and he had had enough--despite the fact that he seemed to be winning the bout.

Liston went on to fight for another five years after his second loss to Ali but was never the same fighter. Yeah, he continued to steamroller his opponents. But he was no longer fighting the likes of Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Floyd Patterson, or Eddie Machen. Instead it was Gerhard Zech, Billy McMurray, Willis Earls, and Sonny Moore.

There were plenty of quality boxers around for Liston to fight in the second half of the 1960s. Besides the emerging Frazier, there was Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Ernie Terrell, Karl Mildenberger, and George Chuvalo--even Henry Cooper was still fighting in the top tier at the time. The fact that Liston fought the run-of-the-mill types after 1965 instead of any of these guys is a further indication that he was pretty much shot as a fighter either before, during, or after Ali.

[Mad Bomber]

Professor, according to Davey Pearl who Liston grew up with, it was believed that Liston was actually born in either 1926 or 1927 which would have made him at least 37 during their first fight, and that certainly makes more sense than 1932, as I'm sure he wasn't only 32 when they fought.

Pearl by the way was born in 1917.

Greg

PS Great article by the way