Ranking Joe Frazier

[Jersey-Jim]

I think if Joe Frazier were fighting today he'd be a lot heavier than he was back in the 70's, but I could be wrong?

It's too bad that people rate him off of his losses to Foreman more than they do his fights with Ali. Foreman, arguably the biggest puncher of all time, almost had Ali out of there by Ali's own admission. In his biography, Ali said he was practically "out on his feet, but Foreman didn't know it. Ali, arguably had the greatest chin/recovery ability in Heavyweight history. Frazier gave the best boxer with the best chin/recovery the fights of his life and yet is ranked by many way behind most expert's all-time rankings.

Here's to Smokin Joe

[mh2365]

I kind of think that he'd slim down to 175 if he was fighting today.

[Jersey-Jim]

He definitely could have enjoyed a run through the CW division. I think he was around 215 for the 3rd Ali fight.

[Mad Bomber]

Joe weighed 205 1/2 for his first fight with Ali, and 224 1/2 for his last fight with Ali, and lets not forget that Evander Holyfield weighed only between 205, and 215 and was competitive with Bowe, and even competitive with Lewis in their second fight depite the size difference.

So I guess what I'm saying is while fighters like Quarry, Patterson, and maybe
even Marciano would probably would be fighting in the Cruiserweight division
I don't think Frazier would be able to drop 30 to 40 lbs.


Greg

[nelsth]

I don't see anyone in the heavyweight division that Joe Frazier couldn't beat straight up. He had trouble with sluggers with power (Foreman and Bonavena), but did well against boxers and the taller the better. He was one of the great punishing body punchers. There's not a lot of (any?) fearsome punchers like Foreman around and Vladimir Klitchko still hasn't convinced me that his jaw doesn't have some crystal in it. I believe Joe is a top 10 all time heavyweight in spite of his losses to Foreman. Remember Foreman being knocked OUT by Jimmy Young?

[Mad Bomber]

Originally Posted by nelsth

I don't see anyone in the heavyweight division that Joe Frazier couldn't beat straight up. He had trouble with sluggers with power (Foreman and Bonavena), but did well against boxers and the taller the better. He was one of the great punishing body punchers. There's not a lot of (any?) fearsome punchers like Foreman around and Vladimir Klitchko still hasn't convinced me that his jaw doesn't have some crystal in it. I believe Joe is a top 10 all time heavyweight in spite of his losses to Foreman. Remember Foreman being knocked OUT by Jimmy Young?

I agree with almost everything you except that Jimmy Young did not actuallyknock Foreman out, he only knocked him down in the final round of there fight in San Juan, and that like the Ali knockdown was probably due to exhaustion.

What people tend to forget, except for the hardcore boxing fan is Ali only beat Frazier after he took the beating from Foreman.


Greg

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by Mad Bomber

I agree with almost everything you except that Jimmy Young did not actuallyknock Foreman out, he only knocked him down in the final round of there fight in San Juan, and that like the Ali knockdown was probably due to exhaustion.

What people tend to forget, except for the hardcore boxing fan is Ali only beat Frazier after he took the beating from Foreman.


Greg

I stand corrected on on the Foreman/Young fight. Thanks.

I do agree that the first Foreman fight took something of him. Ali took the first fight with Joe too soon. Ali/Frazier II was a track meet with Ali keeping his distance throughout. They both should have retired after the Manilla fight. Neither was ever the same after that. If Ali is to be considered the greatest ever then Joe was his kryptonite/Waterloo opponent and the best out of him.

My top 10

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Marciano
Dempsey
Holmes
Frazier
Tyson (pre-Douglas)
Jeffries
Liston

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

He definitely could have enjoyed a run through the CW division. I think he was around 215 for the 3rd Ali fight.

I saw the Bob Foster fight when Frazier destroyed the then reigning lightheavyweight champ (KO 2), and future all time great. I don't think Joe's left hook would have lost much punch at 190 lbs either.

[Ric915]

Originally Posted by nelsth

I stand corrected on on the Foreman/Young fight. Thanks.

I do agree that the first Foreman fight took something of him. Ali took the first fight with Joe too soon. Ali/Frazier II was a track meet with Ali keeping his distance throughout. They both should have retired after the Manilla fight. Neither was ever the same after that. If Ali is to be considered the greatest ever then Joe was his kryptonite/Waterloo opponent and the best out of him.

My top 10

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Marciano
Dempsey
Holmes
Frazier
Tyson (pre-Douglas)
Jeffries
Liston

I agree with most of the list just surprised Tyson made it. I feel Tyson could have been an alltime great but just didn't live upto that potential. Never really beat anyone of significance and with his two biggest opponents he was destroyed twice by Holyfield and Lewis. I know those were post Douglas but I always thought Holyfield would have beaten Tyson anyway. But ofcourse Boxing is all opinion and thats what makes it great. back on track Frazier was alot better then I think he gets credit for.

[nelsth]

Originally Posted by Ric915

I agree with most of the list just surprised Tyson made it. I feel Tyson could have been an alltime great but just didn't live upto that potential. Never really beat anyone of significance and with his two biggest opponents he was destroyed twice by Holyfield and Lewis. I know those were post Douglas but I always thought Holyfield would have beaten Tyson anyway. But ofcourse Boxing is all opinion and thats what makes it great. back on track Frazier was alot better then I think he gets credit for.

I guess I should have said pre-Don King. In retrospect, I should drop Tyson add Holyfield at #10. It's just that Tyson was a no-brainer all time great who ran afoul of the master manipulator, King who didn't give a damn about Tyson beyond him keeping the belt. He changed for the worse after the Spinks fight and when Kevin Rooney was fired, Mike's whole style changed. Instead of the bobbing and weaving, hard to hit, fast handed power puncher who was learning how to break down his opponent, he became a plodding bully whose attitude was now based on bullying and headhunting.

Holyfield is another heavyweight who will probably be penalized for fighting way beyond his prime, but he proved everybody wrong vs Tyson, Bowe, and Lewis. He has the edge on quality fighters faced... Bowe and Lewis were in their peak years.

[mh2365]

That's a smart list considering Holyfield isn't on it ... he was a good HW not a great one. He was a great CW.

[Ric915]

Originally Posted by nelsth

I guess I should have said pre-Don King. In retrospect, I should drop Tyson add Holyfield at #10. It's just that Tyson was a no-brainer all time great who ran afoul of the master manipulator, King who didn't give a damn about Tyson beyond him keeping the belt. He changed for the worse after the Spinks fight and when Kevin Rooney was fired, Mike's whole style changed. Instead of the bobbing and weaving, hard to hit, fast handed power puncher who was learning how to break down his opponent, he became a plodding bully whose attitude was now based on bullying and headhunting.

Holyfield is another heavyweight who will probably be penalized for fighting way beyond his prime, but he proved everybody wrong vs Tyson, Bowe, and Lewis. He has the edge on quality fighters faced... Bowe and Lewis were in their peak years.

I could agree with that observation of Tyson. I agree he went completely down hill after leaving Rooney

[Mad Bomber]

While I agree Tyson looked impressive when he was young, I never thought much of him myself, and would be hard pressed to put him in my top 15 or 20.

For what it's worth here is my top 5.

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Johnson
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Jack Dempsey


Greg

[SWardle]

I'd argue that Frazier took two out of three against Ali. I think he was jobbed in that second bout at MSG. I have 26 Frazier fights on DVD and I've watched all three fights vs Ali. I feel Frazier left no doubt in the first bout that he won. The third bout was a classic and as close as you could get in a boxing match but Ali won.

The second match, I've watched it twice and I just can't fathom how anyone had Ali winning that match. All Ali did the ENTIRE match was clinch. He broke off exchanges constantly and Eddie Futch claimed it was 128 times Ali clinched to break off the exchanges. I find that AB_SO_LUTELY believable even if I didn't sit and count them all myself. Frazier was the aggressor the entire match, did more damage and landed FAR better punches than Ali. He caught Ali with his left hook at least a dozen times and I can't believe Ali took it. Ali's chin is certainly the best I've ever seen.

That being said, I don't see how a guy can clinch his way to a victory but Ali somehow did in that second Frazier match.

[SWardle]

Originally Posted by nelsth

Holyfield is another heavyweight who will probably be penalized for fighting way beyond his prime, but he proved everybody wrong vs Tyson, Bowe, and Lewis. He has the edge on quality fighters faced... Bowe and Lewis were in their peak years.

Ummm, Holyfield drew Lennox and lost to him. He lost to Bowe twice and won the middle match. I'm not alone amongst people that saw it that thought Bowe won that match. Even still, vs Lewis and Bowe, Evander went 1-3-1. That's hardly impressive.

Tyson post-Rooney was a trainwreck. He fought flatfooted, threw nothing but bombs and abandoned his peak-a-boo style for the most part. The thing that amazes me about young Tyson was that he had speed, power AND he had incredible defense. It's so rare you get all three in a boxer. Post-Rooney he was just a puncher and nothing else.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by SWardle

Ummm, Holyfield drew Lennox and lost to him. He lost to Bowe twice and won the middle match. I'm not alone amongst people that saw it that thought Bowe won that match. Even still, vs Lewis and Bowe, Evander went 1-3-1. That's hardly impressive.

Tyson post-Rooney was a trainwreck. He fought flatfooted, threw nothing but bombs and abandoned his peak-a-boo style for the most part. The thing that amazes me about young Tyson was that he had speed, power AND he had incredible defense. It's so rare you get all three in a boxer. Post-Rooney he was just a puncher and nothing else.

Yeah, but in reality Holyfield beat Lennox Lewis twice. I am as big a Lewis fan as there is on these boards but we have to face facts here.

Going back to watch some of the early Tyson bouts... that man faced an awful lot of stiffs, club fighters, and never-weres early on. Additionally, the guy was fighting like every other week in his early years to keep him out of trouble (which he wasn't able to avoid in the end). While I definitely understand Tyson's status as one of the most... unique boxers in heavyweight history, I'm not so sure he was ever destined to remain a superstar for that long, with or without Kevin Rooney and Don King. Even early on, when faced with guys who didn't fall down instantly (there was a club fighter who went by the nickname "Irish" I remember in particular) he would get frustrated and hit his man with low blows.

Don't get me wrong, I think Tyson is or has the potential to be a very intelligent man, and it's pretty amazing he was able to bring himself as far as he did given his background. However, I don't think he's a top 10 heavy by any means. Okay, my top 10 (as always, subject to change)...

Ali
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Gene Tunney (the first of the modern heavyweights)
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Joe Frazier
George Foreman (DOWN GOES FRAZIER notwithstanding; these two guys are actually more or less tied in my book)
Lennox Lewis
Sonny Liston

I have a hard time ranking Jack Johnson or Dempsey or earlier guys for the same reason I have a hard time ranking Red Grange in the pantheon of great running backs in football or Ross Barnes in baseball. They were definitely good at what they did, but what they did is so much different than what we call boxing today. Certainly if I made a list of guys who had the most impact on the sport, both would be in my top 5.

[bdennis2]

Compubox went back to the Ali-Frazier III and from the tape they counted the punch out put after 14 rounds it went like this Ali 443/917 (48%),Frazier 349/674(52%) per round Ali 32/66 Frazier 25/48 i thank it is in there top 5 alltime heavyweight punches thrown and punches landed.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by SWardle

Ummm, Holyfield drew Lennox and lost to him. He lost to Bowe twice and won the middle match. I'm not alone amongst people that saw it that thought Bowe won that match. Even still, vs Lewis and Bowe, Evander went 1-3-1. That's hardly impressive.

Tyson post-Rooney was a trainwreck. He fought flatfooted, threw nothing but bombs and abandoned his peak-a-boo style for the most part. The thing that amazes me about young Tyson was that he had speed, power AND he had incredible defense. It's so rare you get all three in a boxer. Post-Rooney he was just a puncher and nothing else.

Umm, that was an "aged" (clearly post-prime Holyfield, regardless of if you liked him as a fighter or not, that is a reality)...and that Holyfied went 1-1 with a prime Lennox - Lennox won their first fight and Holyfield won the second....(the judges were a joke for both....but that is sports)......A prime Holyfield would without question been able to keep up a higher punch count, had the legs to cut off the ring better and had faster hands too boot (than the older version that faced Lennox).

Now, Lennox style and size would have always caused problems for Holyfield......Who was much better Vs guys who wanted to bang.....than those who wanted to box safely from the outside (and who had him by 30 + pounds as well)...

Historic top 10 lists are fun and all.....but they change like the wind every 3 or 4 years......depending on what is in fashion. I usually try and look at it from the perspective of....if these guys had their best nights...who would have won?....Who could have pulled it out?...who showed the ability to rise to the occassion, etc, etc......

ATG's are ATGs......on any given night anyone could win.....

[meade95]

I will also say the more I look back on Ali's career.....The more of late I tend to lift is value. I soured on him for awhile.......but the more I relook...rewatch....evaluate......The man was special....of course an ATG......and maybe #1......I can see the debate for him.....

At the same time....When a Prime Frazier faced a Prime Ali......Fraizer won that big one.....

I also believe Tyson has got a bad wrap......to some degree......and his stock has fallen further than it will....with time it will trend back up...

[SWardle]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Going back to watch some of the early Tyson bouts... that man faced an awful lot of stiffs, club fighters, and never-weres early on.

So did Ali. So did Foreman. So did every other boxer when they started out. Ali didn't step right out of the gym in Louisville, KY and start fighting Sonny Liston. I've never understood this about Tyson detractors. Did he fight some chumps? Most certainly. But name a boxer that fought great boxers in their first 10-15 bouts. I can't name many.

Additionally, the guy was fighting like every other week in his early years to keep him out of trouble (which he wasn't able to avoid in the end). While I definitely understand Tyson's status as one of the most... unique boxers in heavyweight history, I'm not so sure he was ever destined to remain a superstar for that long, with or without Kevin Rooney and Don King. Even early on, when faced with guys who didn't fall down instantly (there was a club fighter who went by the nickname "Irish" I remember in particular) he would get frustrated and hit his man with low blows.

I have the entire Tyson fight collection and I can't recall him ever throwing an intentional low blow out of frustration. He was warned a few times for low blows because he was significantly shorter than some of his opponents and he liked to get inside and work the body. Sometimes he'd catch his opponent low. I don't ever recall him just winding up and drilling a dude low because he was frustrated, though. Now, he did throw elbows when inside but he was no different in that regard than Ali and Holyfield. Holyfield used his head and elbows better than any other boxer I've ever seen. I just didn't watch the same fights you watched if you saw Tyson throwing intentional low blows. I never saw that.

Don't get me wrong, I think Tyson is or has the potential to be a very intelligent man, and it's pretty amazing he was able to bring himself as far as he did given his background. However, I don't think he's a top 10 heavy by any means.

Opinions vary, no harm in that. I think Tyson has been the victim of a pretty bad rap lately. Who was he supposed to fight and beat? It's not like he shied away from any of the top contenders during his day. Who did he dodge? Tyson's career ultimately must include his spiral out of control and looking at his entire career, I may tend to agree he's not top 10. If he is, he's near the bottom of my top 10 list. His prime, however... I drop him in the ring with _anyone_ other than a prime George Foreman and expect a good chance of victory. Any great fighter can beat another on any given night... but I'd like my odds with prime Tyson vs anyone other than Big George. I think Tyson's style plays right into the hand of Foreman. I wouldn't expect Tyson to last more than 3-4 rounds with him.