[don1234]

Back in the daze the Trunzo boys would customize 2 fighter's cards ( yes, those dark and dank manual days) to reflect how they felt they would do against each other. They usually repeated the warning several times: This Is To Be Used For This Match Only! It was a lot of fun and a real treat.

This came up for me when I matched a prime Larry Holmes up against a prime Joe Frazier. The TB key to this matchup, which favors Larry, is in his B/S rating. His CFs are 11/12. Frazier, built from the ground up by Durham to hunt down and destroy boxers (Ali), is a 13/10. Pitting them against each other gives Holmes a puncher's advantage against Frazier- something I find a little tough to live with.

The B/S dual CF is a wonderful tool in TB. This is one of those rare times when I may override it for a This Match Only moment. Larry, unless desperate and going for the "win by a knockout" late in the bout, may have to fight Joe as a boxer.

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by don1234

Back in the daze the Trunzo boys would customize 2 fighter's cards ( yes, those dark and dank manual days) to reflect how they felt they would do against each other. They usually repeated the warning several times: This Is To Be Used For This Match Only! It was a lot of fun and a real treat.

This came up for me when I matched a prime Larry Holmes up against a prime Joe Frazier. The TB key to this matchup, which favors Larry, is in his B/S rating. His CFs are 11/12. Frazier, built from the ground up by Durham to hunt down and destroy boxers (Ali), is a 13/10. Pitting them against each other gives Holmes a puncher's advantage against Frazier- something I find a little tough to live with.

The B/S dual CF is a wonderful tool in TB. This is one of those rare times when I may override it for a This Match Only moment. Larry, unless desperate and going for the "win by a knockout" late in the bout, may have to fight Joe as a boxer.

That's an excellent analysis. For that reason, I actually have Larry Holmes rated as a boxer only in my game universe.

When you get right down to it, every fighter can box a little if they want to. Tommy Morrison did it against an old George Foreman. And every boxer can slug a little too if they want to. Pernell Whitaker did it against
Diosbelys Hurtado and Ali turned slugger against Bob Foster when a cut threatened to end the night prematurely.

I consider a boxer/slugger to be more like a Joe Louis, Alexis Arguello, Shane Mosley, Oscar DeLaHoya, etc.

Larry Holmes would really be at a disadvantage against Joe Frazier's seek and destroy style. Ali had trouble keeping him off him and his chin kept him in the fight. Holmes didn't have the ability to soak up the type of punishment Ali did and still be standing.

That's a great idea, though, changing the fighters for one fight. It solves the problem with having a missing style, too (the pressure or swarming styled fighter).

.

[don1234]

Here's another old idea that was kicked around by the Trunzos, however briefly. It messes with the numbers much more than the one-on-one tailored ratings idea, which I agree is grand.

The other idea was to rate certain fighter's salient aspects in bolder relief. Tommy Hearns was one considered. This was back in the daze he was knocking everybody (but Leonard) out early and if a fighter got through those lethal early rounds, he had both a chance to go long and knock Tommy around a bit. The way it would work in TB was Tommy would get an extreme HP early, say a 13 or 14. That would last a couple of rounds, then quickly diminish. He would always have a punch but from the midpoint on, more like a 5 or 6.

Ali was another, in the time of his career when he often did nothing for the first 2-4 rounds against lesser caliber opponents. Kind of a mandatory Cover Up. Then he could fight using his ratings. This would not apply to matches against the monsters he'd face in between the cupcakes.

The idea would take programming and it was never tried out, though you could easily do it with the cards.

[Jersey-Jim]

Keep the thoughts coming, Don! It's like a breath of fresh air over here. I've been playing to game since the late 70's and have spent more time deliberating over ratings than a "normal person" should. One of the aspects I've toyed with relative to ratings is how certain fighters seem to have very, very solid chins... until they suffer their first knockout defeat.

After that, their chin becomes average at best. Fernando Vargas is a good example. Pipino Cuevas is another. Bazooka Lamon. With certain fighters, I move them to post prime after they get "starched" for the first time. In some cases, I make two versions of the fighter. One for the prime version and another for post prime version.

[wildhawke11]

Don and Jim i agree with you both. I swear this is true as its sounds unbelievable, but i spent about a year night and most of the day almost seven days one time re rating the fighters in our game To my mind i had the game as perfect as it was possible for me to get it. That was when we only had about 3000 fighters in the game. When people on here were asking for more fighters to be put in the game i said "Do the job correct get the fighters who are already in the game correct then and only then bring in new fighters" But no one listened they just threw out fighters like there was no tomorrow. I work on the principle of get the foundations right or you will never get what comes after it right. Now we have thousands of fighters in the game and the job is to big now for me to spend my time on.

Again Jim and Don many great ideas we bring up could be implemented into a new boxing game, but and this is the problem. Even the best boxing game we make would still come no where near the baseball money machine that OOTP has, so unfortunately time and money spent on the game would probably limit some of the things we would like to see in a new game.

[don1234]

Okay, here's another one. Refine the fast/slow start to a stepped system, depending, of course, on the fighter. Joe Frazier, a notorious slow starter, starts at -2 CF in the first round, -1 in the second, then he's rarin' to go (actually he's raring to go in the first. It just takes his body a couple of rounds to catch up) This make a lot of Joe's fight work like the actual bouts- Quarry-1 where Jerry eats him up... early. Ramos rocks Joe to his toes. Ali has him on queer street in their 2nd fight. That can be ultra-fine tuned so that in the first Ali fight, Joe has a zero fast start. He was never more ready then in that 1st round. When Ali, who looked super sharp as well, went back to his corner, he told Angelo he had never seen an opponent move his head like Joe. PS: you guys are great. This could be the beginning of a wonderful relationship discussing fighters' ratings!

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by wildhawke11

Don and Jim i agree with you both. I swear this is true as its sounds unbelievable, but i spent about a year night and most of the day almost seven days one time re rating the fighters in our game To my mind i had the game as perfect as it was possible for me to get it. That was when we only had about 3000 fighters in the game. When people on here were asking for more fighters to be put in the game i said "Do the job correct get the fighters who are already in the game correct then and only then bring in new fighters" But no one listened they just threw out fighters like there was no tomorrow. I work on the principle of get the foundations right or you will never get what comes after it right. Now we have thousands of fighters in the game and the job is to big now for me to spend my time on.

Again Jim and Don many great ideas we bring up could be implemented into a new boxing game, but and this is the problem. Even the best boxing game we make would still come no where near the baseball money machine that OOTP has, so unfortunately time and money spent on the game would probably limit some of the things we would like to see in a new game.

There are some addition people helping with re-rating the fighters right now. I'm personally working on the Middleweights and when I'm finished, I'll probably drop down a few pounds to the Jr. Middleweights.

There are others, too, that are helping tweaking the official ratings.

The nice thing about the new ratings that are currently under development is... they're available for download almost as soon as they're finished. The days of waiting for new fighter cards are long, long gone.

You should share some of the fighter ratings you've created on the "Mods Board."

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by don1234

Okay, here's another one. Refine the fast/slow start to a stepped system, depending, of course, on the fighter. Joe Frazier, a notorious slow starter, starts at -2 CF in the first round, -1 in the second, then he's rarin' to go (actually he's raring to go in the first. It just takes his body a couple of rounds to catch up) This make a lot of Joe's fight work like the actual bouts- Quarry-1 where Jerry eats him up... early. Ramos rocks Joe to his toes. Ali has him on queer street in their 2nd fight. That can be ultra-fine tuned so that in the first Ali fight, Joe has a zero fast start. He was never more ready then in that 1st round. When Ali, who looked super sharp as well, went back to his corner, he told Angelo he had never seen an opponent move his head like Joe. PS: you guys are great. This could be the beginning of a wonderful relationship discussing fighters' ratings!

I actually heard a conversation similar to the one we're all having in this thread on the Fight Night Radio Show that PoeticDrink2U has talked about on this board. There are many fight fans, apparently, who play fight night who would like to see the type of detail we talk about it TBCB in that game... just as we'd like to see a few graphic enhancements in ours.

Glad to have you on the board, Don.

[hamed2]

This is an interesting thread. I recall a card in the old game of Aaron Pryor with a 3 KDR 1. For most guys when they got knocked down, it means they're in trouble & maybe about to be stopped. Aaron was different, I recall a fight years ago where after he was dropped, he woke up & the other guy was then in trouble.

[bear]

Welcome to the basement, Don
Good to see you here old friend.

bear

[wildhawke11]

Don
Please forgive my lack of good manners and welcome to our little home.


Jim
It would be a pointless exercise for me to give anyone a fighters i had in my game.
Because unless he had the same fighters rated in his game as all mine. My ratings would be out of place in his game. Why, simply because my new rated fighters would have been tested against my other rated fighters in my game and not his. The same rule applies to any Tom Dick or Harry who puts fighters out he has rated. Anyway you have to know quite a bit about a fighter before you get his ratings right. Boxrec will tell you the result of a fight but some fighters lost fights because of conditions out of there control, this of course you will never learn on Boxrec

Ray Robinson had many little tricks such as delaying fights to throw his opponent off his game. You wont learn this on Boxrec. Jim i don't mean you and some others on here. But often some guys i can tell by there ratings they know very little about the fighter they have just rated they go purely on a result not taking the conditions that were attached to the contract when drawn up. Or the beaten fighter was in no way at his best or at least under par for a particular fight. Or he had to agree with a small ring to get a shot at the champion when in fact he was a skilled boxer who needed at least a medium size ring to be in with a fair shot of winning the fight. Personally i would like to see a standard size ring be the rule for all fighters as ring size can make such a big difference but i know you know this Jim.

Anyway at the moment i have no well rated fighters of my own because silly me never made a back up of my old fighters that i had rated before my hard drive gave up the ghost a few years back.

PS Jim i hope this posting makes a little sense as i had a bad night and am really very tired. So please forgive if it seems a little hard to grasp.

[don1234]

Originally Posted by bear

Welcome to the basement, Don
Good to see you here old friend.

bear

Thanks, Bear, it was about time I got a little TB resin back on my soles.

[don1234]

Another fast/slow tool that would go a ways to profiling a number of fighters is reducing CF, after so many rounds fought, before fatigue sets in. Prime Tyson is a good example. He fires out of the chute but after 4-6 rounds slows perceptibly, making a distance fight a more likely outcome. Aggression loss could accompany this.

[don1234]

How about a new thread entitled: Custom Classics.

We can judiciously post single matchups, with our own alterations and our own justifications, to capture what really happened (maybe) even better than TB does now.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by don1234

How about a new thread entitled: Custom Classics.

We can judiciously post single matchups, with our own alterations and our own justifications, to capture what really happened (maybe) even better than TB does now.

This is actually something that would work in the Legends vs Legends matches that have been talked about to get the word out on TB through the "Talkin Boxing with Billy C" show.

Hamed2 - I have to add Danny Lopez to that list of fighters who had to taste the canvas to wake up, it seemed he was down in nearly every fight, then got up and waxed his opponent....Until Salvador Sanchez that is...

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by wildhawke11

Don
Please forgive my lack of good manners and welcome to our little home.


Jim
It would be a pointless exercise for me to give anyone a fighters i had in my game.
Because unless he had the same fighters rated in his game as all mine. My ratings would be out of place in his game. Why, simply because my new rated fighters would have been tested against my other rated fighters in my game and not his. The same rule applies to any Tom Dick or Harry who puts fighters out he has rated. Anyway you have to know quite a bit about a fighter before you get his ratings right. Boxrec will tell you the result of a fight but some fighters lost fights because of conditions out of there control, this of course you will never learn on Boxrec

Ray Robinson had many little tricks such as delaying fights to throw his opponent off his game. You wont learn this on Boxrec. Jim i don't mean you and some others on here. But often some guys i can tell by there ratings they know very little about the fighter they have just rated they go purely on a result not taking the conditions that were attached to the contract when drawn up. Or the beaten fighter was in no way at his best or at least under par for a particular fight. Or he had to agree with a small ring to get a shot at the champion when in fact he was a skilled boxer who needed at least a medium size ring to be in with a fair shot of winning the fight. Personally i would like to see a standard size ring be the rule for all fighters as ring size can make such a big difference but i know you know this Jim.

Anyway at the moment i have no well rated fighters of my own because silly me never made a back up of my old fighters that i had rated before my hard drive gave up the ghost a few years back.

PS Jim i hope this posting makes a little sense as i had a bad night and am really very tired. So please forgive if it seems a little hard to grasp.

Hey Danny,

Well, it's time to get back to doing those ratings . I've been re-rating fighters since '79. It's always a challenge to get all the fighters on the same page. If you post a few fighters, along with the logic behind the rating, you'll inspire some people to use that some train of logic in adjusting their own ratings. I have a thread over on the MOD's board where I've done this and it seems to appeal to the "purist" as well as the "Gimme More Fighters" crowd.

The Ratings of the Day Council Thread is another thread that uses the same type of "logic" in rating that fighters.

I think you should just jump back in and get to it.
Hey, I'll admit, I'm the type to say on occasion - ready, fire... aim!

It's sort of funny listening to you talk about TB. You've been playing it for so long... and yet, it sounds like you're talking about a wayward son at times. He's not focused like it needs to be... you hope he learns his lesson... but if he knocks on the door at 3:00 a.m., you'll be the first person to the door!

If Title Bout were my "kid," I'd tell him he needs to get his graphics straight if he wants to go anywhere in this world.

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by don1234

How about a new thread entitled: Custom Classics.

We can judiciously post single matchups, with our own alterations and our own justifications, to capture what really happened (maybe) even better than TB does now.

Sounds like some "land" is being cleared off right now for it at the "Inside The Ropes" section or possibly the "Talkin Boxing with Billy C" show (like Lee said).

I think that's a great idea.


.

[Jersey-Jim]

Originally Posted by don1234

Another fast/slow tool that would go a ways to profiling a number of fighters is reducing CF, after so many rounds fought, before fatigue sets in. Prime Tyson is a good example. He fires out of the chute but after 4-6 rounds slows perceptibly, making a distance fight a more likely outcome. Aggression loss could accompany this.

Another example would be Rocky Marciano. He said that he would willing walk though punches during the first 3 rounds just to land the type of punch that would really hurt an opponent. He said that type of punch would effect an opponent psychologically the rest of the fight would cause the opponent to hesitate before doing anything because of concern of getting hit with another punch like that.

Jack Dempsey was known to fade in the rounds 5-7 if he didn't blow his opponent out in rounds 1-4. But then, he'd close like a category 5 hurricane making landfall in the later rounds.

[don1234]

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

Another example would be Rocky Marciano. He said that he would willing walk though punches during the first 3 rounds just to land the type of punch that would really hurt an opponent. He said that type of punch would effect an opponent psychologically the rest of the fight would cause the opponent to hesitate before doing anything because of concern of getting hit with another punch like that.

Jack Dempsey was known to fade in the rounds 5-7 if he didn't blow his opponent out in rounds 1-4. But then, he'd close like a category 5 hurricane making landfall in the later rounds.

2nd Wind. I like it!

[bear]

Originally Posted by don1234

2nd Wind. I like it!

Reminds me of the APBA card version of the game. There was a sheet with specilized attributes for fighters, Henry Armstrong could possibly regain stamina after using his up. Liston could balefully glower and intimidate an opponent prior to the fight, McGovern could loose his temper, Hagler could go southpaw for a round. Most of the fighters had unique, specialized attributes and that was a relly cool feature.