Ali-Frazier I

[PittPanther]

HBO just aired a documentary on this classic. Really was a nice job, gave me goosebumps.

It was nice to see the human side of both fighters. Ali really said some things about Joe that were hateful and hurtful at that time. Frazier said, "I swallowed a lot of razor blades, and some of them cut on the inside."

How could he ever get over some of that stuff, including the "Uncle Tom/White Man's Champ" nonsense? Especially after helping Ali get his license back; I'm not sure I could. It made me sick to hear Jim Brown talking about how Joe, in his innocence, reperesented white America and Uncle Tom. What the hell? Frazier was fighting for his own respect and family. It was everyone else that made the fight the political show it became. Not Joe. Hell, he didn't pay attention, he was, and always will be a working man. His style suited him; he worked hard, and if you weren't in shape he would tear you up. Just because Frazier wasn't a loudmouth radical he was pinned as a white fighter fighting in a black man's body. And then there were the rumors after the fight that he had died in the hospital because of the punishment he took from Ali. How much more did he and his family have to endure to push Ali on the pedastal he still sits on today?

But Frazier, being the man that he is, apologized to Ali for all the things he said in the years that followed, even though Ali never returned the favor.

In the end, it was a shame that such a good fighter like Frazier was the loser in the big picture even though he clocked Ali in the 15th. As Ali went through the roof, Frazier's career had already peaked and had nowhere to go but down. Either way, I still love seeing that hook explode on Ali's jaw!

Anyway, just thought I'd give everybody a heads up to catch this if you get a chance. Well worth it.

Ali was a jumble of contradictions. There were many things to admire about him. He never ducked anyone - he fought more great fighters than any champion I've ever heard of. He never quit during a fight either. His bravery eventually cost him, as he took too many punches in his later years. He stood up against the Vietnamese war even though it cost him the peak years of his career. He was kind to many people, including some who didn't deserve it. I always wondered what he saw in Bundini Brown.

However, there were many things about Ali that were not admirable. He constantly cheated on his wives. He was downright mean to many opponents, such as Frazier and Patterson, even though he respected both fighters greatly.

If you haven't seen it, I heartily recommend the movie "Ali" where you can see the many different facets of the man.

[wildhawke11]

Panther and 60S fan i commend you both,
It takes guts to speak out against the most well known ex fighter
the Worlds has ever seen.
So many people are blind to both Al`s faults in and out of the Ring. He did a lot to bring Boxing once again into the Limelight but he also was one of the causes of sometimes the lack of talent we see today in some cases. ( i will explain my meaning another time )
I know, to use the expression, where you are coming from.

There was so much money invested in Ali, they could not afford to let him not become world Champ. Yes Ali had the tools, but just as importent he had the men behind him.
He was used by the men behind the scenes because he had great speed and reflexes, but also very importent the looks that people meaning not us, but the more casual boxing fan and of course the woman all loved him. He was a Goldmine to the money people. He was also just what the media wanted.

Do you really think that Sonny Liston had any chance of winning the fights with Ali. Sonny with all respect was not a money making machine like Ali, In fact in many of Listons fights he was told to what is known in the trade as ( fight with the cuffs on ) As a lot of fighters did at times.
People now just remenber the Big Bad Guy who was beaten twice by the young Great looking Clay. Liston did not have the people backing him or behind him that Clay had, that made the difference. He was told what to do by the men behind the scenes.
You all must remember or have heard of the Great Joe Louis. Well this so called bad guy Sonny Liston, was one of the very few, who often put his hand in his pocket to give Lous a hand when he was down and out, in the final bad days of that Champs life. Others just walked by that once Great fighter.

Clay himself knew the Liston fights were his for the taking. Some years later Ali when asked about Liston taking on the others in what we term in Al`s time ( The Golden Age ) his words were " That Cat would have beat them All " meaning Liston would also have destroyed the fighters Ali himself beat.
So that coming from Ali himself must in fact tell you all something about his true feelings for Old Sonny.

A peak fast Tyson admitted that Sonny might have beat him. he said how i was going to get past that jab which Liston had i dont know ( Liston threw a jab harder then most Heavys can throw there best punch ) then Tyson went on to add, then if i do get close i have to face a devastating puncher.
Mike knew how good Sonny was, but time and the two Clay fights erode all that to the casual fan. The guys who trained with both Sonny and Clay knew the power Liston carried in both hands. If Liston had been in the hands of the money people and they had looked after him and let him fight on the level we would have been in Awe of that guy today.


Yes its easy to sit at home saying i would not have done as asked. Trust me you would have, your talking big problems if you cross those men.
I cant go into detail, but in my time i have known many people who were in contact with fighters and fighters themselves. Also a very prominent referee who admitted at times in Championship fights he had been approached by powerful people in the fight game and told to give there fighter every chance in a tricky situation. You cant do the obvious of course but you can without the crowd realising it give every chance to a fighter if you so wish.

A simple example fighter A is the one you are told to favour. During the fight fighter A is put down, As he gets up just beating the count, he is fit enought to fight on, but he is still a little shaken. So rather then send him back into the fight right away. you take a look a look at his gloves, wipe them, then ask ask him again if he is ok to continue taking your time of course.You have now given the favoured fighter an extra 10 plus seconds. It may not seem long to the watching crowd, but that extra time has acheved the desired affect. Fighter A is now more able to withstand the next attack coming.

Also if the favoured fight is getting hurt in infighting he will grab, and of course you can always stop the two fighters and give a long stern slow warning to the favoured fighter. Again taking your time. More time again.
Thats why you dont always see the best ref`s getting the fights. If you dont play there game you dont work. ( simple as that )
If only some of you Gentlemen knew what and the corrupt dealings that still go on today, you would be amazed.

The last few days an ex fighter and my self have mailed each other so many times discussing and talking about the times he had to carry a bad opponent just to give the crowd there moneys worth. He also was a friend of Tyson but has not seen Mike now for about 3 years. He also told me some very human things about Mike that the public and the media never see.

Panther and 60s i have to say your pretty good on your take on fighters. Thats why i said a long while ago each and all can learn if not to proud to take a 2nd look at a view they had. The guy who thinks he knows it All, and you must have met the type in other boxing chat rooms will never be as wise as guys like yourselves.
I to am not proud of the way Aly degraded Frazier. Joe was a Great Man both in and out of the Ring but look at them today -- Frazier had the last laugh --
Well i will climb down from the Soapbox now
Danny - They Field is all Yours :-)

[TLC]

Please...a little defense for "The Greatest"

to: pittpanther,
I read your thread about the HBO documentary
and I'm sorry, but either you got it backwards or HBO is now running a "slam Ali campaign".... I have evidence that the true facts.... are... that Frazier has NEVER forgiving Ali for the things Ali said before the fight in Manila, (the Gorillla comments to the press and also if you remember the insults referring to Joe's level of intellect). However, Joe did say and I will quote that, " in the ring he (Ali) was a man." I will say that, being the quality of man Joe Frazier is, he has "Never" ever slammed Ali's character outside of the ring ... and if anybody had reason.... noboby has had more reasons than Joe Frazier........What I see is the same old.....oh the hell with it ....and I may catch hell for saying it but here goes... I'm gonna keep it simple..... racism... pure and simple..... I'm (white) and I'm NOT racist and please believe me....I'm not suggesting that your view is racist based either.... But I will say that if we all closed our eyes and Ali happened to be white... then we all woke up .... then Ali would be the greatest sports figure of all time.... especially in the U S of A the leader in the World of Racism and character bashing

To: 60's fan,
You base your opinion of Ali on a Hollywood movie?

To: Wildhawke
A couple of questions ... first how can you blame the stiffs of today on Ali?..... I though the blame game was only part of American politics.... Blame the stiffs..... that's what they are....
second .... who are these "men" behind Ali?.... Was one of them besides being his trainer, Angelo Dundee? If so .... I remember in one of your threads, you made a comment about how Dundee was "NOT" around Ali as much as the public thinks... I believe you say he was "called in a few days before a fight"..... I would like to known who these "men" were.... and also, Money was the reason Ali was champion???... (because of ALL the money invested in him).... This seem very strange to me that "THESE MEN" would allow their money making machine to lose three years of prime time profits... What these "MEN" not bigger than the U S of A's 1960's White establishment ....... With all due respect...... come on...

"I said I was the Greatest..... not the Smartest"

TLC

My opinion about Ali is certainly not based on the movie, though I found the movie to be quite accurate.

I was a teenager in the 1960's and a big boxing fan (the first fight I was really aware of was Patterson/Johannson). I followed Ali's career very closely and I was personally involved in the turmoil of the times.

I actually hated Ali during the 60's and wanted to see him lose. But I have to admit I was in awe of his boxing ability.

In retrospect, I feel there is a lot to admire about Ali and a lot to be critical of. That's the point I was trying to make.

[TLC]

60'sfan,
I was a little unfair with my comment .... I got the point you were making.... Everybody is entitled to their opinion.... I just believe Clay (Ali) is a bigtime victim, ( in this country anyway) of racism.....
Like I have said before many times if Ali had the same career and he was WHITE ... in America's sports world ...he'd be known as King Muhammad..... of this I have no doubt.....

[PittPanther]

edited because there is no point discussing the issue with someone that:

a. refers to people critical of Ali as racists

b. hasn't seen the documentary

[TLC]

To Pitt:
I never said all people who are critical of Ali are racists,
but .... if you go on different web sites and talk to certain individuals.. there is definitely racism....out there...alot
is aimed at Ali....by white individuals....

I've seen enough on the Ali/Frazier fight and all I said was that if that HBO show stated Frazier apologized... that is untrue. You are correct .... I don't think I saw that show with a frazier apology....

sorry, and I respect your view tlc

[PittPanther]

Actually, he apologized on the show.

[dsvitak]

I saw the show as well...Frazier came across as the much better man.

The show DID over-emphasize the societal problems, and the characterization of each boxer as representing a part of the American culture.

Ali was supposed to be the self-righteous militant, concerned for the black man, yada yada.

Frazier was the "tom" labeled very unfairly, I think.

Ali was not a victim of racism, he was a victim of his own big mouth.

[Pretecf]

Ali is a victim, but he is a victim of his own politics. He often said he was or will be the people's champion, but that he would do it in his own way. Well, his way was often to focus on something other than boxing. Nothing wrong with that unless you want the masses to focus on something other than your fighting ability.

I do not buy the argument that Ali is not recognized as the greatest ever due to racism. I believe that Ali realized that he held a large forum, and decided or was pushed to use that forum for political purposes. This detracted from his claim as the public focused on his politics.

I, personally, believe that he is the greatest ever. I also, personally, did not agree with his politics. But, I am a focused boxing fan and find it easy to separate the two. I did not like his methods of building hype for the fight. This probably hurt him as well. I do not believe that everyone is able to separate his non-boxing actions from those within the ring.