Goodbye to the Kid

I just heard that Kid Gavilan (Gerardo Gonzalez) died at age 77.

The Kid was a great fighter who gave Sugar Ray Robinson a very hard time when they met for the welterweight championship in 1949. The Kid lost a unanimous decision in 15, but had Robinson in trouble in the fourth. The Kid had a very good defense and a great chin. He wasn't a knockout puncher but he went to the body well. He popularized the bolo punch, which was later used by Sugar Ray Leonard.

The Kid eventually won the welterweight championship in 1951 against Johnny Bratton. He successfully defended it against several good fighters, Billy Graham (a controversial decision), Bobby Dykes, Gil Turner, Billy Graham again, Chuck Davey, Carmen Basilio and Johnny Bratton, before losing to Johnny Saxton. Most writers rate him among the top 10 all-time welterweights.

Kid Gavilan's overall record was 106-30, 6 draws and 1 no contest, with 27 KO's. The Kid was never knocked out.

[wildhawke11]

60s Fan
Thanks for the info, to be honest i did know, but i only found out myself yesterday.
He was another Great Fighter


If my memory serves me right, he fought another great fighter Ike Williiams 3 times in the same year. If i have it correct won 1 of the 3 i think. I have one of his fights with Ike Williams on film i am sure some where in the house.
Another point in Gavilan`s favour was he also fought middleweights, even though he was a welter. When your a little guy, giving away weight means a hard nights work.
Not like today, where its move up only a few lb and go for a Super Title, you had to move up by the full poundage. only 8 divisions in the old times in most cases. So you also could not pick the weaker Champ to go for a Title Shot
With so many World Titles to go for today guys like
Robinson, Armstrong, Ike Williams, Gavilan and the young Duran Would have taken the fighters of today to School.
Yes i agree 100% Kid Gavilan was a great fighter. and deserves to be remembered as such.
REST IN PEACE OLD TIMER

[PittPanther]

No doubt about the divisions. . . It's exactly why boxing works in the exact opposite of football and baseball. . . Boxers from yesteryear would not only compete with today's stars, they might very well dominate.

I'm not so sure that would be the case in some of the team sports that are popular these days. The players get bigger and bigger, the offenses get more complicated, the defenses faster and so forth. Boxing is, and always will be, the sweet science. A left hook to your jaw in 1935 is still a left hook to the jaw now. Boxing always has the same foundation, no radical changes here.

Will Jones beat Ruiz? History says no!

On a lighter note, Ketchel is my wife's great-great uncle----She's a direct descendent, and her Grandfather, Ketchel's nephew, fought a few pro bouts. If I recall, Ketchell stepped up as a true middie to fight a heavyweight champ and lost his teeth. Although, unlike is the case now, the champ was one of the best of all time.

I think Johnson would hold his own against anybody. And that's why boxing is the finest sports my friends!

[Pretecf]

You make me laugh.

Anyone who forgets that man continues to evolve, makes a silly mistake.

The greatest fighters of earlier eras have no where near the reach that it takes to compete today. It does not make for a better era of fighters or matches, but it does create a situation that obviously does not bode well for the earlier era.

Could Bob Hayes even qualify for the Olympics today? Not a chance. The milers of even 15 years ago would have no chance.

Man is evolving, the awesome Louis, Dempsey and Marciano would not make the top ten today. I am sorry, but it is just nature folks, just natural.

[Cap]

You have a wonderful sense of humour, kid. The plodding, overpaid, doped up bags of suet that masquerade as heavyweight contenders today wouldn't last thirty seconds with the single-minded, quick-fisted, razor sharp battlers of the last century. A left hook to the chin is still a left hook to the chin, boyo. Only thing is those guys knew how to throw one, and it was generally preceded by a jab and a thudding right hand. If the fighters of today throw two punches together, it generally wears the clumsy sods out.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Cap

[wildhawke11]

Pretecf
Again sometime take a look at the present crop of HWs.
you think there good fighters ?
Most are carrying bulk not hard muscle.

Once you have reached about 200lb or so, the increase in your punching power if any, is off set by the loss of mobilty and lack of stamina,
Also punch power is not a matter of you being big, its about timing and having the abilty to throw at the correct time, for example as your man is about to launch his blow at you.
His own momentom plus the affect of your well timed punch can be devastaing to even the biggest of men.

A prime example of my meaning is flyweight Jimmy Wilde who took on other fighters nearly half his weight again and knocked them silly.
The fighters of yesteryear fought on a regular basis, they fought because they were poor in most cases. and often the only way to put food on the table in the so called old times was to
beg, steal or learn to fight.

Today Thank goodness there are more and better ways of earning a living and many more sports to make your way in the world with.
Again today, and i include myself in this respect, we are soft by there standards. Hard times breeds hard men.
How many fighters today can feint or draw a fighters punch, They dont even do the basic things in boxing correct let alone learn how to use more advanced skills.

People talk about men being bigger and stronger.
Regardless of what era you are from, a 160lb fighter is still a 160lb fighter. Yes power training can increase your build, BUT then you would be fighting above 160lb So again if you were lucky, and did increase your punch power ( not that i think you would ) it would again be off set by you fighting in a different division.

Yes i supose we do make you laugh, because all here you laughed at can see your a man who knows his Boxing :-)
Danny

[wildhawke11]

Cap
Like you said its paw paw grab, paw paw clinch, throw a combination ummmmm WHATS THAT,

Originally posted by Cap
You have a wonderful sense of humour, kid. The plodding, overpaid, doped up bags of suet that masquerade as heavyweight contenders today wouldn't last thirty seconds with the single-minded, quick-fisted, razor sharp battlers of the last century. A left hook to the chin is still a left hook to the chin, boyo. Only thing is those guys knew how to throw one, and it was generally preceded by a jab and a thudding right hand. If the fighters of today throw two punches together, it generally wears the clumsy sods out.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Cap

How dare to you refer to such awesome physical specimens as Brian Nielsen as "bags of suet"!

Pretty funny Cap.

But really, both you and Pretecf make good points. Since there is no weight limit on heavyweights, a talented fighter who is in good shape at 195 can eat lots of junk food and come in at 250, though he won't fight very well. Nielsen is a good example. Lots of today's fighters are in that category.

However, the same 195 pound fighter can, through weight training and a good diet, transform himself into a great 220 pounder (for example, Holyfield) if he is sufficiently dedicated. There is an incentive to do that, as a fit 220 pounder will beat a fit 195 pounder of equal talent most of the time. That type of thing regularly takes place today but just didn't happen until the late 1970's.

I'm convinced that a 190 pound Marciano could beat the stuffing out of 250 pound suet bag Brian Nielsen, but he'd have a very tough time against super-fit Wlad Klitchko.

This situation doesn't hold for fighters in lighter divisions though. If a 135 pound lightweight chooses to train hard and gains 15 pounds of muscle, he'll be stronger, but he'll also have to fight welterweights. So there's no real advantage for him to do that. Look at Fernando Vargas. He built himself up from lightweight to welterweight (using steriods, as do lots of fighters). He's stronger now than he was but he's now facing fighters like De La Hoya, Mayorga, Forrest and Mosley, so he's not as overpowering as he used to be.

[Pretecf]

Two other comments here.

One, Primo Carnera held the Heavyweight title at one time, enough said.

Two, even in the lower weight classes there is still a point to be made for the evolution of man.

I am afraid that boxers are taking far too much advantage of the schedule calling for making weight the day before the fight. A lightweight who trains hard and gains that 15 pounds of muscle might very well be able to make the 135 limit and still fight at 150 the next day. It may have been the same in the old days, but I am not aware of it.

I guess money is the root of the problem of today's top fighters?

There is little incentive to stay in shape and pound out 5 or 6 fights a year when you make that type of income only by limiting the number of available fights. It seems that the number of fights is being controlled by a cartel intent on limiting the supply to drive up or at least maintain the price. One would have to assume that it is providing limits on the experience and, therefore, the abilities of those same top fighters.

I feel that this is the only argument that weighs in favor of the earlier fighters, I just do not feel it is strong enough against the flood of evidence of the evolution of man.

[Cap]

One small point that has been made elsewhere. Fighters in the old days trained down from their walking around weight. Now they seem to believe that the heavier you are the better you are. In those days gone by, they trained down to achieve maximum speed and mobility. How many times have you seen fighters come into the ring with a roll at their waistband? Others work out with weights (a no-no thirty or fourty years ago) and build up lumps of muscle like body builders so they can intimidate little old ladies when they walk down the street in their neighbourhoods.

Cap

[Pretecf]

The same old school of thought was prevalent in baseball. "Don't build all that cumbersome muscle, it will slow down your bat speed." Of course, a young man named Mark McGwire may have proven this adage to be a false one when he managed 70 home runs, eh?

[wildhawke11]

Pretecf

OK if the fighter today is better, then lets do it right.
Give me a a fight over 15 rounds, pick a fighter fighting today to beat these .
DING DING - thats the bell

Flyweight
Jimmy Wilde
Pascual Perez

Bantamweight
Eddie Jofre
Panama Al Brown

Featherweight
Sandy Saddler
Willie Pep
The ref just stopped the fight

Pity really i had
Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, ready to come on next, but Duran and Henry Armstrong were trying to beat those guys to the ring.

Hell here comes the Welters wow its Ray Robinson.
NO no no Armstrong you cant fight as a welter to, Barny Ross will be mad.

Is that Old Harry Greb i see laughing as he puts his green trunks on
Ohhh Nooooo Monzon is here - angry as ever.

THE DEFENCE RESTS ITS CASE.
With Respect I meant it in fun
Danny.

[ucclark]

Clearly, if you put Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis in a time machine and brought them to 2003, they'd be in trouble. Yes, they could beat up Brian Nielsen, just like they beat up the out of shape reprobates of their own day (Two Ton Tony Galento, who made Nielsen look like Mr. Universe, knocked Joe Louis down, remember). But they could not compete with guys like Lennox Lewis, either Kltischko, a prime Holyfield or Tyson, or a prime Riddick Bowe. They would just be too small and too weak.

On the other hand, if you gave Jack Dempsey access to modern methods of training, dietary supplements, and the like, he wouldn't be a 185 pound guy with a great chin and devastating power, he would be a 225 pound guy with a great chin and devastating power. Still, Dempsey, Louis and the like never had to deal with anything quite like the super-sized Lewis, Klitscho, et al. Dempsey did destroy Jess Willard, but Jess Willard wasn't exactly Lennox Lewis. Of course, an old, tired Holyfield had a pretty good second fight with Lewis (I had him ahead until the 9th round), so I think they could at least compete.

Even in the smaller weight classes, I think the top guys are better conditioned and better skilled than the fighters of days past, but that is only because they have had the benefit of the knowledge learned over time.

A great fighter in one era would be great in any era, provided you accounted for the fact that he was granted access to high quality modern training methods, corner men, etc. If you simply teleported them in without allowing for modern preparation, the top guys of today would generally beat the top guys of yesterday. The idea that the modern fighters stink is largely a combination of the following:

1) Fogeyism - as we get older, we tend to glorify the past (which we have ever more of) and look down upon the present (as we approach our inevitable doom). We all do it.

2) False measurement - When you think "old time fighter", the names are Robinson, Dempsey, Armstrong, Louis, Ali, Greb, Zale, etc. When you think "modern fighter", it William Joppy, Emanuel Augustus, Brian Nielsen, Attilla Levin......you can't compare 80 years of all-stars to the current crop of fighters, it's unfair. The All-Stars of today, like Jones, Lewis, Barrera, and Hopkins could match up well with just about anyone of any era. "Jack Dempsey would dominate Brian Nielsen" is about as relevant as "Lennox Lewis would dominate Fireman Jim Flynn and Willie Meehan."