Tyson

[wildhawke11]

For those who have not seen it yet
Tyson stated i am not finished yet i am having another one done on the other side and also my nose inked --- Yes i am serious
Tyson weighting in at 225lb

[cubedrum]

I can't believe this moron would jeopardize what might be his last payday for THAT!
Cube

[Jim Trunzo]

Obviously, we're dealing with a very disturbed individual (hardly a revelation!) who I still firmly believe will meet a violent end, quite possibly at this own hand. Tyson has always been self-destructive and I have a feeling the only thing keeping him semi-sane is the medication he takes. However, that same medication probably affects him greatly in the ring. I don't think Tyson cares if he wins or loses anymore.

I think a provocative question is whether or not Tyson, at his best, was really as good as we thought. Consider this: the competition he so totally dominated was less than mediocre. It's no exaggeration to say that 1/2 of them were beaten before the first punch was thrown. However, we saw a completely different Tyson, once his bully-persona was exposed.

Any of the all-time great heavyweights - and even near-greats - would not have been intimidated against Tyson. How would Tyson have handled the pressure of Joe Frazier? The huge right of George Foreman? The all-around brilliance of Ali?

That said there's no denying that Tyson had crushing power that was greatly enhanced by outstanding hand-speed. Ironically, he might have had his best chance against Joe Louis, who for all his greatness, had an average chin. Not that I'm saying that Tyson could have beaten Louis but Joe was a bit mechanical as well so Tyson matches up with him better than some. Against Marciano it would become a question of whether the Rock could endure enough shots from Tyson to break Tyson's spirits and then take Tyson late in the fight.

Tyson blows out guys like Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen. He wrecks guys like Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, etc. but against the elite? I'm not sure that Tyson has the "intestinal fortitude" to handle real champions. I'm also not sure that Tyson has as good a chin as we might have thought. It really wasn't tested in his prime and it looks solid but not grainite-like since Buster Douglas.

[wildhawke11]

Hello Jim
Thanks for posting and i admire you taking the time to keep us all informed about how things are going on in regard to our Baby ( THE GAME )
Jim on another thread i stated i will reserve my judgement untill i try a piece of the cake :-)
i know your wise enough to read between the lines LOL
To maybe the few who dont. Hell i was just keeping Jim Boy on his toes.
I wanted Jim to think Hell my game best be bloody good or now i will be crucified :-)
Trust me Jim if it is the Game i think it will be , i will be one of the first to push it on other Boxing Sites.
Again Old Buddy note i said IF LOL

Originally posted by Jim Trunzo
I think a provocative question is whether or not Tyson, at his best, was really as good as we thought. Consider this: the competition he so totally dominated was less than mediocre. It's no exaggeration to say that 1/2 of them were beaten before the first punch was thrown. However, we saw a completely different Tyson, once his bully-persona was exposed.

Any of the all-time great heavyweights - and even near-greats - would not have been intimidated against Tyson. How would Tyson have handled the pressure of Joe Frazier? The huge right of George Foreman? The all-around brilliance of Ali?

That said there's no denying that Tyson had crushing power that was greatly enhanced by outstanding hand-speed. Ironically, he might have had his best chance against Joe Louis, who for all his greatness, had an average chin. Not that I'm saying that Tyson could have beaten Louis but Joe was a bit mechanical as well so Tyson matches up with him better than some. Against Marciano it would become a question of whether the Rock could endure enough shots from Tyson to break Tyson's spirits and then take Tyson late in the fight.

Tyson blows out guys like Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen. He wrecks guys like Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, etc. but against the elite? I'm not sure that Tyson has the "intestinal fortitude" to handle real champions. I'm also not sure that Tyson has as good a chin as we might have thought. It really wasn't tested in his prime and it looks solid but not grainite-like since Buster Douglas.

When Tyson was 20, 21, 22, he was a pretty good boxer. He moved his head well and didn't take many solid punches. He was setting up combinations by using his jab. I think that version of Tyson ranks with the all time greats. He would have been a threat to anyone, including Ali.

By the time Tyson fought Douglas, he wasn't boxing as much or using good defensive techniques. He was no longer using combinations but looking for the one punch KO. That version of Tyson was vulnerable to most good fighters. Norton, Shavers, even Johansson would have been able to hit him hard and perhaps knock him out.

[wildhawke11]

Pretty good take on Tyson Jim
I Have always said guys like Walcott and Co, the sort i term good crafstman would have not played into Tysons hands.
They would have worked him, made him move. drawn him in. out hustled him, Then when in the later rounds when Mike was tiring bad, taken him to School.

As we all know i am talking as if Walcott had been also given todays advantages, and come in a few lbs heavier.
Have to say though for 5 or 6 rounds Tyson i feel would have been in with a GREAT chance with a lot of the old timers who just wanted to slug it out.

Jim i know its impossable to agree about everthing in regard to boxing.
But in defence of Tyson, All the old timers even Ali fought some as you put it mediocre guys.

About Tysons chin Jim, i think he had a good chin,
every bit as good as Dempsey and Co. Hell in his last fight Lewis blasted him time and time again. A hell of a lot of fighters even some of those we know regard as good or great chins, would i think have taken a count.

I also am taking into acount the Big Men these days who are hitting Tyson. I feel Dempsey and Rocky himself etc etc, would have taken a count or two from Those Big Big Men.
Rock was being hit by 185 lb men or so not as Tyson is by 240lb or so.

To be honest any big man i feel fighting today is capable of blasting the other out. Thats why i feel no fighter in the future years will have an unbeaten record or hold the Championship say as long as Joe Louis.

Myself i am not a lover of the big men today, there all one punch wonders i feel. and so predictable in all they do. And most do not know how to counter or deal with a jab.

You must recall the days when a fighter learned his trade. How many today Jim can move inside a punch, deflect or block a jab, Most i have seen have not a clue how to go about it. Plus as i have so often said, the lack of staying power in most of those Big Guys. Cant remember the last time i saw a good combination hitter in the HW`s.
Take Care Jim Boy.
Onother Old Timer
Danny

[wildhawke11]

60s
Your my Man :-) Tyson
Yes at his peak, his Power was 2nd to none i feel but Ernie Shavers, and at least on a par with Foreman. My own feelings are he might have taken Big George ( but who knows )

In my game i put Tysons Power as 12 and Marciano as 11, but i do increase the Rocks 3 pt punches to allow for how Rocky just wore his man out by consistent heavy punching and sapped there stamina by never given them a moment to take a breath.

With Rocky you had to have a BIG BIG Heart because it was all pain, pain and more pain to look forward to with that Guy.

Against Tyson who again knows, but i feel once Marciano if he got through the first few rounds, would have broken Mikes Spirit. Once you have tasted the pain you need to dig deep and have the Heart of a Lion to want more of that.
Again i am asuming Rocky if fighting Mike would have been a bigger guy today not 183 or so.

Like Tyson or not at his peak he brought the excitement back that was missing. Pity he let it all fall by the wayside.

Even now when the name Tyson crops up, i visualise that Caged Beast prowling back and forth like a Tiger in his cage just waiting to be unleashed on his prey.

Thats how i want to remember Mike not the sad guy he now is today.

[Pretecf]

I believe the single thing claim that Tyson has to greatness was his start. When you list all of the gifted fighters, I do not believe that you find many that can match the speed with which they grew to their prime. Of course, like many awesome minor league pitchers, when he took it to the majors (coaching changes) he was unable to continue to improve. Many boxers continue to improve as they age, Tyson did not. His early years looked like the beginning of a phenom, but, alas, he quit improving.

Maybe, he reached the top too early in his career. Remember the high school phenom that pitched for the Rangers at the end of his senior year. Early success can stunt your growth.

[JeffR]

Originally posted by Jim Trunzo
I think a provocative question is whether or not Tyson, at his best, was really as good as we thought. Consider this: the competition he so totally dominated was less than mediocre. It's no exaggeration to say that 1/2 of them were beaten before the first punch was thrown. However, we saw a completely different Tyson, once his bully-persona was exposed.

'Mediocre' seems a little too unkind - the heavyweight division of the late 80's didn't have the same quality of fighters as it did in, say, the early 70's, but I wouldn't put it at the bottom of the talent barrel, either. I'd say the list of guys Tyson beat in his prime stacks up pretty well against those of Marciano, Dempsey, or Johnson, for example.

As for his decline, I've always associated the start of it with dumping Kevin Rooney as his trainer. After that happened, he started to lose his razor-sharp edge and got a little sloppy - his defense and conditioning both slipped. And I also think he started to believe his own hype and stopped pushing himself.

I remember an article by Gary Smith in Sports Illustrated in 1987 or so, that looked at what motivated Tyson. Smith concluded it was fear - Tyson was terrified of being beaten. After beating everybody in sight, maybe that fear went away, and so did his motivation.

And losing to Douglas only made it worse - he found out that getting knocked out wouldn't kill him, and people would still pay big money to see him fight, win or lose. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened to his career if he had been able to get up off the canvas and knock Douglas out. Maybe that would have been enough of a scare to get him motivated again.

[Cap]

Re: Marciano

I'm not a big Marciano booster, but if you eyeball the guys he fought, a number of them were 200 pounds or more. And this was the day when boxers chose not to beef up or work weights. The theory was to maximise speed and mobility, something which I think Roy Jones should consider going in against the plodding Ruiz.

Cap

(A lot of folks forget that Earnie Shavers only weighed around 210 when he fought Ali and Holmes.)

[wildhawke11]

Cap
Hell i forgot to rank Old Liston near the same punch power as Tyson but with a much better jab of course.
Yes Cap about right 210lb or so the rest is just like dragging a big
weight behind you.
Hate to be around to watch the HW`s in say 50 years time they will be like the Jap Sumo wrestlers

Hows the weather where you are Cap its still damp and cold in uk england and a little foggy to

[Cap]

Nice variety today. Cloudy and cold this morning until it started to rain. Rain continuing, turning into freezing rain, followed by periods of snow. Thank God, we missed the heavy weather down south.

Next time you guys stumble through a rift in the time-space continuum and suddenly find yourselves in Coaltown, drop in at the Royal Canadian tavern and we'll hoist a few (mine'll have to be root beer as the doc has made me swear off the hard stuff). There's live entertainment this week. The O'Flaherty Brothers (actually Antony Spagbolio and Heimie Fleiglehammer) will captivate you with their unique singing style and demonstrations of fish-filleting. The house specialty this week is squid-on-a-stick, followed by eels and jam and pickled herring ice cream for dessert. Yumm!

Cap

[KC]

Originally posted by Pretecf
I believe the single thing claim that Tyson has to greatness was his start. When you list all of the gifted fighters, I do not believe that you find many that can match the speed with which they grew to their prime. Of course, like many awesome minor league pitchers, when he took it to the majors (coaching changes) he was unable to continue to improve. Many boxers continue to improve as they age, Tyson did not. His early years looked like the beginning of a phenom, but, alas, he quit improving.

Maybe, he reached the top too early in his career. Remember the high school phenom that pitched for the Rangers at the end of his senior year. Early success can stunt your growth.

Now, now. The high school phenom you talk about was David Clyde. Billy Martin was managing the Rangers that year, and he is well known for killing the arms of starting pitchers: Ask Mike Norris and Matt Keough that question. Martin really didn't know how to preserve pitchers, nor did he know how to cultivate young ones. Clyde would go a week or longer between starts, and was robbed of any learning experience he would have received while going through the minor leagues.

The Rangers were in need of getting some fans through the gates, and they thought nothing would be better than to get the young Texan in front of a home crowd. Even more added pressure on the kid.

Clyde never got a chance to be the player he could have been.

[mh2365]

Tyson with Kevin Rooney in his corner was unbeatable ... Tyson since has been a mediocre fighter ... he never would of lost to Douglas had Rooney been there and not all of King's lackies ... my cable listing shows the fight on Showtime and PPV anyone know which it is?

[streetballer67]

Tyson in 49 seconds

[dsvitak]

I read the article about the fight....this guy Etienne was a stiff.

You could probably kick his ass.

Slow, not too bright, and stationary.

[Lee]

He was tailor made for Tyson and I think they will continue to match Tyson against this type of fighter up to the point they can secure a rematch and one final huge Payday against Lewis. I think Tyson is Obviously the biggest waste of talent ever in the Heavyweight division, and he has made notable underachievers like Max Baer, Sonny Liston and Jack Sharkey look Fanatical in their approach to the fight game by comparison. Yeah he was never tested in his prime and we never will know how he would have reposnded, because against Douglas the people he had in his Corner were clueless and were less prepared than Mike to handle the way that fight went.

With Rooney training him I think Tyson put his punches together better and did the subtle things that accentuated his ferocity (the head movement, angles, etc) Though it may not have made a difference in the long run, it is interesting to debate what might have been had he stayed with Rooney his whole Career.