Roleplaying/career mode option: No need for these things

[vulcan]

IMO-

There is NO need for having drive-bys!, charity work(for what-drug possession!?!) or ANY type of illegal practicies. This should not be apart of the game/roleplaying option. Roleplaying or not, for this to included into a "sim" is almost glorifying those types of things. Sure these things happen but drive-bys are for cowards and idiots who have no life. Why would I (the end user) want to be apart of that. Innocent people die everyday because of those losers who do drive-bys.

You also mentioned charity work---for what? Drug possession? Rape? Murder? You guys are going down the wrong road if you include these things. I wouldn't buy a game that would include these things. I want to play a sim involving sports not some cowardly person who could care less about someone elses well-being.

Lastly, this post was not to "bash" the makers of TBCB. I am looking forward for the release....very much, however, I just found this thread

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=28973

and read the whole thing. I was shocked that you would even condider these things in a game. Am I alone here? I may be but I can tell you, I won't be buying TBCB if these options are in the game....no matter how good it is.

[mh2365]

so you don't want it to be realistic? ... a good quantity of boxers are criminals and thugs in real life, but they should all be angels in the game ... doesn't make much sense but okay if that's what you want

[vulcan]

No, I want it to be real but you are missing the point bud. I do not watch boxing for the entertainment of drive-bys but for the sport of boxing. I would rather see the developers focusing more time on the sim engine instead of including options like drive-bys.

[jas80s]

My concern is not so much the moral message sent by the inclusion of criminal activity. As MH stated, the grim reality is that it does happen in the world today. IMO, a simulation can only benefit by the inclusion of any event that can happen in real life.......after all, the point of a simulation is to simulate real life as accurately as possible. I think we can give ourselves some credit here.....I think we all know criminal activity is wrong whether it occurs in the game or not.

Having said that, drive by shootings and felony convictions are pretty rare by my observation. True, we tend to remember when they occur but I would hasten to wager that the statistics would show that it is a very rare occurence. What is my point you ask? Rare events invariably occur way too often when they are included in simulation games. I can see it now, you'll have 10 fighters in your stable and two will be convicted of felonies and two others will be shot each year. Trust me, these things will occur too often and it will drive you crazy. Bottom line, crimes are too rare for inclusion........contract trouble and training injuries on the other hand.........just one opinion.

[mh2365]

I agree it should be rare, but it should be included ... I mean look at Tony Ayala, imagine his career if he hadn't gone to prison for 18 years .... also vulcan I'm pretty sure they aren't going to forego the sim engine just to put drive-bys in ... but trouble with police, drugs should be included as well as good things your fighters do outside the ring ..... outside influences are a major factor of boxing more so than any other sport and should absolutely be included if it wants to be realistic .... I didn't miss your point unless it wasn't the point that seemed painfully clear in your post

[vulcan]

I see both of your points (good ones at that)....again it may be me but I see no benifit of having crimes in the game. It should not be apart of the "game" that should be simulated. As for me, I'm no angel nor are boxers all of people, however, having drive-bys and whatever other illegal actions they put into the game should be reconsidered. Not for moral sake, not for "holyier than thou" sake, but for the fact that even though it occurs today, boxing wasn't built around "thugs" but around athelets. Sure we all know crime is wrong....I give us all here credit but simulation is just that....simulation. We might as well have boxers raping women and molesting childern then...right? Lets have some of them become mass murders and even commit suicide. Where does it stop? Life is life, lets leave the "tradagies" out. EA Sports was once asked if they would include drugs into one of their games (Madden) and they said themselves that "That is something they would rather not simulate as football was built around athelets and not drug users". I have to agree with EA for once......they stood up for something that wouldn't matter in the game.

[jas80s]

Vulcan,

I can definitely see your point too. I don't particularly want to hear of rape or death in a game either. I could live with legal troubles in the game as it reflects a grim reality of life but frankly, there can be so much to this game without including that stuff that I hardly see it as a necessary addition.

Moreover, while we all remember the likes of Ayala, Ibeabuchi, Tyson, and maybe Corrales (didn't lose that much time) I ask this; how many more guys have lost significant time due to serious legal problems? The list gets pretty short pretty fast, especially when one considers that it is 1000's of fighters that we are talking about and, at most, a handful of occurrences. On the other hand, smaller offenses (i.e drunk driving and minor drug offenses) could be more realistic as they almost certainly occur more often and can still have an impact on a career by pushing fight dates back or causing fights to fall through altogether. I would much rather see that type of thing included.

[Bronx Bomber 15]

At first I was for the inclusion of those options, then after reading your posts, I have changed my opinion and agree with those of you who don't want the criminal element included in the sim (and I edited a post in another area to reflect this).
If you're really dead-set on having those things be a part of your boxing world, you could always work it in another way.
Injuries and suspension issues are options I would like to see included, however.

[vulcan]

Like I said, I really see no point in it BUT seeing that other players want it in the game (as the poll would suggest) I would say to make this an option then. I wouldn't want to hinder someone elses enjoyment just I don't like something. Guys, I would at least consider making it an option or at least make it easy for us to change the types of illegal actions in the .dll file (or whichever file). I don't want to sound hypicritical but I can live with some illegal activities but for me there has to be a line drawn and allowing for these types of things to be an option would be great. I guess I sound like a broken record so I'll give the development guys a chance to respond. Thanks.

[vulcan]

Originally posted by Bronx Bomber 15
At first I was for the inclusion of those options, then after reading your posts, I have changed my opinion and agree with those of you who don't want the criminal element included in the sim (and I edited a post in another area to reflect this).
If you're really dead-set on having those things be a part of your boxing world, you could always work it in another way.
Injuries and suspension issues are options I would like to see included, however.

Oh ya of course, injuries and suspensions are a must

[Jim Trunzo]

Again, let me try to clarify how this would work. Each fighter will have a "Character" rating. That rating will determine, not only how he behaves outside the ring but also inside the ring. Marciano will not longer taunt an opponent, any more than, say, Chris Byrd. However, a Camacho or Judah would be more prone to that type of behavior.

Outside the ring, a huge number of things MIGHT occur, including VERY rare appearances of a fighter being hurt in a barroom brawl, or being caught in an embarrassing situation. On the flip side, a fighter might donate his purse to cancer research or something like that. More frequently, managerial problems, cancelled fights, injuries in and out of the ring and during training and various other boxing related matters would be reported (i.e. signing a three fight deal with WES (World Entertainment System) for premier television appearances.

Now try to follow how we envision it:

1. A small "newspaper" blurb would alert you to what has transpired. Nothing glorifying violence would be included (this isn't Grand Theft Auto: Vice City). "In boxing news today, Zeb Tymoon was arrested for his alleged involvement in an after hours brawl. He was released after his manager posted bail. For the complete story see Section B, page 3."

2. The manager would have money deducted from his financial statement. The fighter's "star rating/box office appeal rating" would go down a few %. A bout might have to be cancelled. An endorsement might be lost.

3. Concerning #2, a fighter's ability to earn money, get the high profile fights, and earn endorsement opportunities will come from his "star rating". A manager's rating (and thus his ability to more easily sign top fighters and negotiate better deals) is tied to his stable of fighters' overall "star ratings".

4. Some fighters might go an entire career without anything good or bad happening to them. Others will be more prone to one or the other. However, this will not be a monthly occurance for all fighters.

You have to understand that you are passing judgement on things that are ideas on paper at this point. Your input and sensitivities are extremely valuable and important to us. However, you have to keep in mind that you are assessing material completely out of context and not close to fruition so your passionate resonse, one way or another, should be tempered by that realization. I assure you - the roleplaying will be realistic and emulate life both in and out of the ring. However, it will be done tastefully and with the emphasis on boxing, not criminal activities.

[cubedrum]

I think this is a great idea, as the careers of many fighters have been greatly impacted by these sorts of events. Tyson, Ayala and even Muhammad Ali lost YEARS to these sorts of problems. It could also manifest as a distraction to training. Riddick Bowe, Tim Witherspoon, Roy Jones Jr, Holyfield, have all had subpar outings due to these sorts of distractions (drug charges, paternity suits, domestic violence). I'm really just scratching the surface. The whole idea of a role playing module, is to take the sim out of a vacuum, and have many and varied factors affecting fighters development . OOTP Baseball has the ability to develop players entirely different from their real life counterparts. You shouldn't be able to say "I'll sign Joe Louis because I know he's great even though he hasn't fought yet." If Joe had a different career path ( getting KO'd a couple of times, or a role play crisis like we've been discussing), He would have developed into a different fighter. Also the Role playing module should have the dreaded career ending injury. Alternate universes should be, well, alternate, and different or what's the point? Let the drug busts and the drive bys roll Jim and Andreas.

My 2 cents
Cube

[vulcan]

Originally posted by Jim Trunzo
You have to understand that you are passing judgement on things that are ideas on paper at this point. Your input and sensitivities are extremely valuable and important to us. However, you have to keep in mind that you are assessing material completely out of context and not close to fruition so your passionate resonse, one way or another, should be tempered by that realization. I assure you - the roleplaying will be realistic and emulate life both in and out of the ring. However, it will be done tastefully and with the emphasis on boxing, not criminal activities.

I understand Joe and thanks for responding. I admit that I went overboard about it. I guess I was a bit worried that these things would be "over-used" in the career mode. I was wrong for taking it out of hand. So I am sorry about that. I would like to see options where one can set the "level of detail" in the game concerning these actions. Thanks again Joe.

[wildhawke11]

A few points i would like to make if i may.
Reading back at some of the so called realism a lot seem to want in the Role Play Game.
You have to be very careful or you will open up a so called ( can of worms )

Example
Fighter A held on rape charge.
Fighter B evolved in drive by shootings -- etc. etc.
Of course the names of the fighters would be mentioned.

To be frank with you all, there are at least 4 former fighters in the old 2001 Sim that i am in touch with by mail or in other ways.
I assume they will still be in that New Game

Any fighter in the game will be in a position to consider taking a lawsuit out against 400S Company if this happens.
You have to be very careful how you phrase things.
( Tyson not training due to personal problems ) is acceptable.
( Fighter C held on drug charges, ( or worse ) is not.

I could be wrong here but also i think that if a fighter objected to his correct name being used without permission in the Simulation he also might have a case against the Company, and they might have to resort to
Rick Ryson v Ray Bones Jr - No i am not joking, over here in UK some Software Sims have had to use these type of names in there games.

So my advice, for what its worth is ( let sleeping dogs lie, and not put in anything that would rock the boat ) so to speak.

On a morel issue, it is possible that some much younger members say ages 12 to 14 may take an interest in the New Boxing Sim.
My thoughts are that 400S has a duty to make sure that as far as i know there Simulations are playable by the younger members
as Jim Trunzo so rightly pointed out, this is not GTA Vice City.

Before you all jump at me-please give this some thought Gentleman.

Today on TV we have killings, domestic violence, Rape scenes, the problems we know exist, but in the end we start to accept this as a part of life. The problem is we just say "Oh another murder or woman raped" Instead of being horrified by it. What i am saying i suppose, is the danger is we become a little immune to it, without even realising it.

The human brain is very fragile and not that hard to brainwash by the media. The younger people your sons and daughters are even more vulnerable.Just like i said about 400s Software Company.We to as parents or parents to be, have a duty to make sure that our children grow up knowing what is right and wrong in life and not thinking that what they see,hear or read about in regard to say drive by shootings or violence is acceptable or right.
My Thoughts for what there worth
Danny

[GDE]

Danny,

I would expect the PARENT to take the time to see what software their child was wanting to buy and make the decision for them.

[vulcan]

Man, now I feel kinda bad for bringing this topic up. I should have just PM'd Jim about my thoughts. This has turned into something I didnt want. I apoligize to the TBCB dev. team.

[Jim Trunzo]

Vulcan - it's Jim, not Joe! LOL. All that I can tell you is this: (1) we will be sure to exercise caution and use good judgement when the time comes to implement the RP segment of the game. (2) We are aware of the laws, at least in this country and while a sports figures image is certainly his, his name -- as long as it isn't used in a slanderous or misleading fashion -- is public domain. If he's been in the newspapers, he's public domain. Let's just get the sim out and make sure it's the best ever.

[sabotai]

The thing with boxing that seperates it from sports like football and baseball is that there is no boxing union. That is why it is perfectly legal to include boxer's names in a product and why it's not legal to include football player's name in a product. In order to use Micheal Vick in a football game, you have to get the NFLPA union's permission. Since no union exists for boxing, their names are "free", so to speak.

[Cap]

Hey. Put whatever you want in the game, it's yours. But if it highlights the violence and general sickness that seems to be seeping up to the surface in modern society, then I will not be interested. Decent people have to make a stand somewhere. The vast majority of fighters do not get involved in violent crime.

Jim's description of what would be involved suits me fine.

Cap

[cubedrum]

The way to avoid this of course is to eliminate the concept of a Character rating, and have this occur completely randomly. Ali had tremendous character and somehow lost 3 years of his career. Without a character rating there is no editorial on character ( I believe this is what Wildhawke objected to) and therefore no way for a fighter to say "this singles me out". The game itself should have a complete editor, therefore who cares if they call him Mike Ryson if you can spend 2 seconds naming him whatever you want. The original TF2001 archive 2 had so many typos that I don't really see the difference.

Or just have the different results able to be edited. Call them something inane on the initial release and the user can change them to whatever he wants. Instead of a rape conviction, your fighter can miss 18 months because of a "shopping spree at Macy's" or whatever the hell YOU want to call it. Don't rob us of some interesting results for political correctness.

Cube