Ali as a Slugger?

[Hollywood Blond]

i noticed in the Archive Ii ratings that I can choose to fight with Ali as a slugger. This surprised me, as I didn't think he was ever classified as anything but a boxer. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Mark42661]

Yeah, it's hard to picture Ali as a slugger. But in his post "Rumble in the Jungle" years, he wasn't exactly a pure boxer either. Ali had a truely unique style. There's really no accurate way to label his style because he would always modify it a little based on his opponent. Perhaps giving the option in the game to select either boxer or slugger is the only way to reflect this based on the constraints of the simulation.

[ChampMan]

I would have to say in his late ring days he was more of a slugger once he tired, but I wouldnt even call it slugging it was like boxing without moving alot....

[wildhawke11]

To call a Ali a Slugger says it All.
If that is the case we best change a hell of a lot of the boxers style in the game. Most would be able to punch back if cornered and had lost there ability to spin or move away.

That now gives again Ali another advantage in the Game as he now can pick the best way for him to go

Some New casual Guys will play this game and imagine Ali as a Joe Frazier or Marciano style fighter.

Ali was great but he got decisions sometimes that to say the least were very close at times.

I was again watching the Ali v Frazier fight the one on September 30 th 1975 when Frazier`s corner stopped it after the 14th round.

We all know Ali was past his peak and did great to pull the fight his way at the end.

But Frazier was at least 3 rounds ahead of Ali in that fight due to Frazier being the Aggressor and Ali`s consistent holding.
That is one of the reasons i keep telling people that Ali was not even at his best a great defensive boxer. If he was a great boxer even then he should have been able to block, parry and use other boxing skills to deal with Frazier, instead of resorting to holding and the like.
He had speed, amazing reflexes, when he fought as Clay but not the pure boxing skills to be called a Great BOXER.

Do i hate Ali, No never, i just hate to see the way a lot portray him as this unbeatable God like figure who could do no wrong.

Strange is it not that some say Fraziers chin was a little lacking and yet Ali, who to the less informed was put down by about 7 different other fighters is said to have a great chin.
Yes i did get it right, about 7 times in his whole career.

This is hard to do i know, because our brain is telling us Ali was a great fighter. but try watching a lot of Al`s other less shown fights and imagine it is just another fighter in that ring not Ali.
Then you might get an idea what's in my mind.

A Great Salesman can convince the majority that his product is the Best even it that is not true. Ali himself was also a Great Salesman.
Ali was in my opinion was the number One All time Great to enhance his weaknesses is to do a Great Fighter an injustice.
I feel sure Ali would say something along the same lines.

Max Kellerman who i have heard people say "but Max thinks"
is in no way any sort of an expert when it comes to the Fight Game. I choke sometimes listening to him talk.

Again a lot think Max is very good !!!!!!
Once again just like you that is only my thoughts, i hasten to add.

You would be foolish to take my words as true, all i ask is you to look at a number of Ali`s fights and look at them again with a fresh perspective in your minds.

Then although Ali will still be the Best i know, but at least you might see where i am coming from in my views.

This post i wrote not as an insult to the more well informed, but to the new or more casual fan.

[ChampMan]

When you talk about fights Ali may have lost the Ali-Young fight always comes to mind.... Jimmy Young beat ALi up and down the ring and ALi was givem the decision, thats what makes me angry about posters saying Marciano had a tough time with no names Jimmy Young was mediocre at best....

[Hollywood Blond]

When I have Ali fight as a Slugger against Frazier, it produces unrealistic results-Ali KOs him easily.

[Jim Trunzo]

Gentlemen, you've hit the nail on the head. We are working on - but not for this version - a system where each fighter will be given a percentage split for his boxer/slugger rating and it will be checked before the beginning of a round against other factors and modified by other factors. That will determine if he fights as a slugger or a boxer. To illustrate, let's say Ali would be 80/20 as a boxer/slugger. 80% of the time he would box and 20% of the time he would slug. However, fatigue and other factors might alter the percentages to 70%/30% - now don't quote these numbers - I'm just throwing them out!

Another possibility would be to add a category or several to better depict styles.

Also, the only way you can get Ali/Frazier to be realistic is to set Ali to post-prime vs Frazier in his prime for the bout.

Incidentally, (1) Ali was a great athlete with almost super-human reflexes but he was not a great defensive fighter in the mold of the greats like Harold Johnson, Pep, etc. Yet he definitely deserves a -6 in his prime for his inability to get hit; (2) more than one expert said that had Ali chosen to set down on his punches, he'd have been a killer, with his combination of size, strength and speed; he chose not to fight that way; (3) Of Ali's knockdowns, several of them could easily be dismissed as the result of his being off-balance, not blasted to the canvas; others were the result of blatant carelessness and he always got up. De la Hoya is a perfect example of a fighter who has a very good chin but has had trouble escaping from the perception that his chin is only so-so due to knockdowns early in his career. Marciano went down but nobody doubts his chin. I understand that Ali had his weaknesses and that there were actually two Ali's (which is why we are rating him twice); however, there is a backlash now that tends to diminish Ali, which is hard to fathom. It's like complaining about Cindy Crawford's mole - we all resent someone who apparently has it all.

[SBoyce]

The difference I see in Ali's chin and frazier's chin is that Ali always got up. In almost every instance he wasn't all that hurt when he got up but just started fighting again. Frazier was stopped a few times, absolutely bounced off the canvas by Foreman in very short order.

I have to disagree with you on the third ALi-Frazier fight as well, Wildhawke. I have the fight on DVD and don't see where Frazier is up by three rounds. Ali dominated the early rounds and took over late. Frazier carried the middle part of the fight but in the end Frazier was beat up.

I guess its all a matter of perception but I think Ali gets short changed sometimes because of his speed. You didn't always see the damage he was doing at first look. For example, the legend says Ali laid on the ropes while Foreman punched himself out. That happened in about one maybe one and a half rounds. The rest of the fight Ali was fighting off the ropes and landing many quality shots on Foreman. Ali knocked out three of the best heavies in history (Liston, Frazier and Foreman), you don't do that by holding.

[ChampMan]

I have seen interviews where ALI said he thought he was dying in the 3rd fight and that Dundee wanted to quit about the same time that Frazier's corner ended it...

[wildhawke11]

Ali in Some people eyes can do no wrong.
With all respect meant this is just what i am talking about and why at times it annoys me.

When Frazier goes down its just a knockdown pure and simple
When Ali goes down like 7 times both as an amateur and a pro it was not a pure knockdown it was.

Ohhh Ali was off balance
Ohhhh Ali slipped
Ohhhhhhhh ?????????.

The truth is
Ohhhhhhhhh they just happened to hit him.

So maybe in fact that was Ali`s tactics because 5 were all done by guess what (a left hook)
Maybe when Ali did in fact lose by KO as an amateur that was his plan to.

Sorry about the above but i could not resist it, what i am pointing is that many no matter what Ali does some see it as Great, or for a reason,
Then by the same token please pay that respect to other fighters.

Its as i said a bit like the selling business, if you bombard people with TV adds showing flashy pics or a fit healthy person promoting a product long enough they will start to believe it is true. That is why they pay stars millions to advertise there products for them - IT WORKS like it or not

But if you ask people in the street are you in fact influenced by adverts a lot would say Ohhh No.

Ask the modern casual fan or the fairly young newcomer, to name the fighters Ali was in the ring with they would maybe say.
Frazier, Forman, Liston, Cooper, and a couple of other. Then they would pause scratching there heads trying to maybe think of the others.
But in fact still would say Ali is the Best of All Time, Hope i am making sense here.

The reason being they are the fights that they know about and judge Ali on. Not there fault because there the fights that are shown on TV.

The Fights where in fact Ali looked fairly average or not so good are less seen by the majority.

Hence Ali Great as he was is elevated way beyond the fighter he truly was.

Ali became a hero to many also because of his stand on the war in Vietnam.
Many took that path not just Ali.

Again Ali and his 3 year lay of from Boxing
Joe Louis in fact did the same.
Marcel Cerdan and many others during WW2 lost fighting time.
Other good and maybe could have gone on to become Greats in other divisions in fact lost there lives in wars.

I agree i am stating the obvious but i did it to make a point.
That a lot of things are conveniently put aside when the subject of Ali is discussed both as a Fighter and as a Person.

In no way am i saying i am right in my thinking, and others here are wrong, but the little i have learned i did by not being blind to a fighters faults and also by,and i will admit this, not being to proud to change over time the way i see or view a particular fighter.

Hope you Gentlemen read this and it comes out not looking like i am pig headed in anyway.
Danny

[wildhawke11]

SBoyse

Technically yes your right and the record books will read that way.
KO or TKO over Liston Frazier and Forman

Ali stopped Forman more because of Forman being exhausted

Frazier in that fight, just take a look at Ali`s face when he knew Fraizier had quit or rather the corner had pulled him out, To tired to even give a reaction to his win.

Liston well some insiders don't really believes Ali truly Knocked Liston out. Sonny was a mob fighter, if he had been better managed, and more cared for he might well have been regarded as even better then a lot see him now. He was a simple man who did as he was told.

You know something SBoyce we both may well be fairly good in our boxing knowledge but it makes you think don't it.

I bet we both at times have sat and watched a fight and when the judges came up with there score cards we have said
"how can they score it that way"

At the same time we see the Ali v Frazier fight in two different ways and just like them it would of course be reflected in our scoring of that fight.
Weird aint it
Cheers
Danny

[erickdamac]

Wild I hate to go against you but....

Your downplaying his biggest wins! First he knocked foreman out! Simple i dont care how tired foreman was. Ali didn't do nothing illegal in the fight!

Liston vs ali 1. Sonyy is like a bully when you stand up to the bully he dont know what to do! That what happend it part 2 sonny just said what the hell why get beat up again.

Frazier vs ali 3 thrilla in manila! I watch the fight last night omg The greatest fight in history! Ali one the first 4 rounds then frazier wins rounds 4-7 then ali wins 7-10 the fraizier 10-12 then ali beat his eye in so bad he could not see ali Won the fight ahead on all the judges scorecards Nothing bad here both fighter gave it its all and the best won! Dont down play it because ali was tired so was frazier it was a was! ali did not quit frazier did! 1975 Fight of the Year - Ring Magazine
At the time of the stoppage, the official scorecards had Ali winning 136-130, 136-132, 137-132 third fight.

[SBoyce]

OK, Wildhawke. One at a time.

I never said Ali didn't get knocked down just that he got up every time, Frazier didn't. Not to take anything away from Frazier whom I have a lot of respect for, he was a truely great fighter.

As for guys he fought, Ali had a nice third round KO against Cleveland Williams who was a good fighter. Solid wins over Karl Mildenberger, Oscar Bonovena, dominated Patterson and Archie Moore. His record of opponents is pretty good. Here is a challange for you, name a decent fighter from Ali's era that he didn't beat in his career.

I'm not blind to weaknesses either, every fighter had them. You seem to really emphasize Ali's however.

Of course his big fights are what they show and there were others he didn't look like a world beater in. That comment applies to any champion in history.

To say Foreman was knocked out because he was tired is unfair. Ali had Foreman seriously hurt earlier in the fight and was landing many solid punches all through the fight. The idea that a champion laid down in the middle of the ring and didn't get up because he was just tired is farfetched. Give Ali a little credit here. You make it sound like it didn't even matter who was in the ring, like Foreman would have litterally taken a nap in the middle rounds of all of his fights.

Ali was exhausted after the Frazier fight, it was a tough fight. He wasn't the one that quit however (I know Joe wanted to continue but couldn't in his manager's eyes). Sorry Wildhawke but that is the definition of a TKO. Marciano doesn't lose points because he was in bad shape when he stopped Walcott does he? Should Ali lose points because he was in a battle and came out on top?

The Liston thing is crap as far as the first fight is considered. There is nothing in the form of proof for that conjecture. Not in any paper trail or the actions of the fighters. If Liston was trying to lose the first fight, why did he burn the gloves to blind Ali and then come after him hard during the next round? The second fight maybe but there is no evidence that anything was fishy for the first one, that's just sour grapes.

We do see things different and that is cool. For the record I'm a big Frazier fan as well. I tought he was a great fighter and the fights with Ali were fantastic. He whipped Ali the first time.

[wildhawke11]

SBoyce
Seems a strange sort of challenge don't you think to ask me to name a decent fighter from Ali`s era that Ail did not beat.
We both know who beat Ali, and who in fact did not. To name the ones who beat him but then Ali beat them in a return, seems to me a pointless exercise


In regard to you pointing out to me who Ali fought and there quality correct me if i am wrong, but i don't believe i disputed that he fought some good fighters. I have to say that Cleveland Williams was in truth no where fit enough to face Ali in there fight. Due to gunshots wounds he had suffered that left him with lifelong kidney problems. ( i agree that was not Al`s fault.

Maybe you are aware of his weaknesses, but just visit some of the other Boards, and read some of the comments left in regard to Ali. I have even seen people come here not so much the present Crowd i hasten to add. Who as far as there concerned think Ali would have beaten Joe Louis, a peak Sonny Liston and Rocky Marciano all in the same night. That is why i often emphasise his weak points to try to make people more aware of the real Ali with his good and bad points.

As for your point about me saying Forman was tired when Ali knocked him out. Most fighters are more vulnerable to a KO or TKO when tired we both again know that. No way did i suggest that in fact Forman laid down.

About the Ali v Frazier fight.Thanks for putting me right about what is meant by a TKO stoppage (i will try to remember that)


The Liston fight i had in mind was the 2nd one and unless your well in the know i would prefer to base my judgement on that one on various old time fighters and people that were a lot closer to that scene then you and i. Guys who have worked in the training camps, sparring partners and in some cases the fighters themselves.

But again maybe they know nothing about what goes on behind the scenes and we should listen to some of the so called experts we have today.
Thanks anyway for your thoughts and views.
Danny

[SBoyce]

I agree the second Liston fight was very odd and if that is the one you meant then you're probably right. Remember though that Ali stopped Liston in both of their fights. (maybe more correct to say Ali stopped Liston in one and Liston stopped himself in two) When I said Ali stopped three of the best, I was refering to the first fight. I kind of forget about fight two, I think everyone including Ali was embarassed by that.

I know you understand what a TKO is Wildhawke. You're one of the more knowledgable posters on the board. I was just trying to get you to throw a little credit Ali's way. Didn't work but that's cool.

You ask people to watch Ali's fights again with open eyes which is always a good idea. Watch the Foreman fight again and see if you think fatigue was the major factor or the punishment Ali dished out. Both played a role of course but I think you will find Ali landed a much higher number of real heavy shots than you thought.

If you want an Ali weakness watch the third Frazier fight. While Ali was very powerful with straight punches he slapped somewhat open handed on his hooks.

Back to the challenge, I don't mean of the guys he fought but of everyone. The point was this. I think you have to judge a fighter by how he dominates his era, Ali fought and beat everyone from his era. He didn't dominate everyone (see Ken Norton) but he cleaned out his era (one of the best in history) as well as anyone in history.

I'm not sure about a peak Liston, Marciano and Louis in one night, maybe two of the three. just kidding. I'm not a big Liston fan although he was obviously a good fighter but I love the other two. I try not to play the this guy would have beat that guy game very seriously. We can never know. Louis, Marciano and Ali were all great in thier own ways.

Finally, Danny, I respect you as a knowledgable poster and know (at least hope) you don't take any discussion with me personally or all that seriously. Just debating boxing.

[wildhawke11]

SBoyce -
Sorry don't know your first name, no problem just Boxing You made some good points and could well be right. Anyway i was reading a posting where you stated you was brought up watching Ray Leonard so i figured you have to be at least maybe 3 years younger then me.

Did i say 3 LOL

Give you a hint i remember listening live on the radio as a young Man to the first Clay v Liston fight at the time i was 3 years older the Clay.
So i Best Behave Myself
When talking with you young Guys.

[SBoyce]

First name is Steve. I figured it was all good but I'm not good at using the smiley faces and other symbols so sometimes I think I come off more serious and opinionated than I intended. I'm 35 and counting