The Willard/Dempsey fight debate - SOLVED!

Teraxx · 08-07-2003, 09:31 PM

An excerpt from a 1998 harcover book I have called "Boxing Greats" by Steve Bunce w/ a foreword by Ed Brophy, President of the Intl. Boxing Hall of Fame--

"Dempsey was accused of having his fists taped with insulation tape - so-called loaded bandages. Doc Kearns's son (Dempsey's trainer was Doc), said his father admitted using a mixture to harden the bandages *my note, like Plaster of Paris*, but either way it would have made little difference as Willard was out of condition and easy to hit."

So, there you have it...

BrocktonBlockBuster · 08-08-2003, 12:34 AM

No doubt about it,Dempsey's gloves were loaded. No fighter since has ever sustained the amount/kind of injuries that Willard recieved. I can't recall his exact injuries but they were severe?

ucclark · 08-08-2003, 12:52 AM

Well, an admission of guilt from Doc Kearns, who was, at best, a serial liar, means nothing. Remember, it was Kearns who started the entire "loaded gloves" controversey, when he was a broke old man looking to stir up some interest in ancient and make a few bucks.

I honestly don't know if his gloves were loaded or not, but anything that came out of the mouth of Doc Kearns shouldn't be given much weight.

BrocktonBlockBuster · 08-08-2003, 12:58 AM

This subjected has been examined in the past. I heard Dr. Ferdie Pachecco talk about this fight. He has years of experience examining countless fighters. He stated that he has neither seen or ever heard of a fighter recieving the kinds of injuries in the ring that Willard suffered in that fight.

wildhawke11 · 08-08-2003, 01:52 AM

More likely Willard thought that he was to big, to strong, for a little guy like Dempsey. So came in well out of condition. If you look at a pic of Willard, yes he looks big, but he looks to me right out of condition,

If Dempsey had loaded gloves he must have normally punched like a Flyweight. Think about it, was it 7 times Willard got up, strange how Dempsey did not do the same in the other rounds, with those so called deadly loaded gloves.
Did he suddenly in the fight remove the wrappings and do it off his own steam. for the other rounds.

First it was the wrappings, then the bolt story,

Don't forget Jack and the Doc parted on real bad terms and Doc by then knowing he had lost his money machine was more then just a little angry,
So he would be in no mood to do Dempsey any favours in the future.

Doc would say anything to make money, or get noticed, He cheated, lied all his life, So why believe him when he was down on his luck..

As far as i know no one has ever proved the storys to be true. unless they can come up with proof i will just take it as being storys. But who knows.

erickdamac · 08-08-2003, 02:03 AM

Im sorry no way he beats this guy like this,but then never put on a performance like that again.

ucclark · 08-08-2003, 02:03 AM

I agree with you, wildhawke. The "loaded gloves" stories all originate with Kearns, and Kearns....well, ethically speaking, he was a little shaky.

Yes, Willard was pretty beat up, but I've seen guys get beaten to death in the ring without "loaded gloves". I once saw Tim Witherspoon erase a man's nose with a single punch -- it was just gone. Well, some of it was still sort of there, but it was way up on his cheek, and it didn't look much like a nose anymore.

The point is, I fail to see why Willard's injuries couldn't have come naturally. Besides, if Dempsey were willing to stoop to such levels against Willard, then why didn't he "load his gloves" for the rematch with Tunney?

It's not impossible that Dempsey loaded his gloves, but there is no real evidence to support it, other than an injured opponent and the word of Doc Kearns.

Keep in mind, I'm not much of a Dempsey fan. I just find the whole story rather unconvincing.

Mark42661 · 08-08-2003, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildhawke11
Think about it, was it 7 times Willard got up, strange how Dempsey did not do the same in the other rounds, with those so called deadly loaded gloves.
Did he suddenly in the fight remove the wrappings and do it off his own steam. for the other rounds.

That's a good point. I think alot of times it's easy to forget that this fight went 3 rounds because of everything that happened in the 1st round. Willard didn't even get knocked off of his feet in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

erickdamac · 08-08-2003, 04:08 AM

And i point to this again. Dempsey never came close to putting a similar performance like that again. And lets not forget this was a fight for the belt Dempsey first title fight.

Mark42661 · 08-08-2003, 04:19 AM

Here's an interesting detailed account of the Dempsey-Willard fight that I ran across while surfing the web:

http://www.bayview.ci.toledo.oh.us/fight/DempWill.html

wildhawke11 · 08-08-2003, 01:17 PM

Mark
That was a great read, Thank you.
To be honest Dempsey always has been a favourite of mine,
So i am pretty sure you know by now that i have a fairly good insight into Dempsey the Man and Dempsey the fighter. In a way Mark old timers interest me even more then the more modern fighters. The hardships most had to endure, sometimes going into the ring weak from lack of eating i could go on but i know you are the sort of person who if he is interested in something puts himself out to study and learn more. So i would be telling you nothing you don't know.

There was a film made about Dempsey i have it on video its called (Dempsey) not in the class of Raging Bull but still pretty good and the characters such as Kearns and such are well played and very believable.
Another film i think you might like is Hard Times with Charles Bronson playing the part of a a bare knuckle fighter and James Coburn playing his manger.
That film is based loosely on Jack Dempseys early career.

About a year ago i bought another book that was about 26 years old on Dempsey, wrote by his step daughter. It was a First Edition Hardback but in great condition,
Thanks again for that Dempsey Read Mark.

SBoyce · 08-08-2003, 07:07 PM

"Dempsey" was a good little movie. I thought Treat Williams was excellent as Dempsey. The movie, like its subject, was very interesting.

wildhawke11 · 08-08-2003, 07:49 PM

Hi Steve
Glad you saw that one, and reminded me of the guy who played Dempsey in that film.
Thanks

I was just to lazy to go upstairs and dig it out from among my other stuff and look again to see the guys name.

My wife calls the room i store all my boxing treasure, films, papers, books etc etc the Junk Room. LOL

Another very good film ( you might know this one ) was
*The Harder They Fall* with Humprey Bogart, very gritty and very realistic boxing film. about the life of Primo Carnera the guy the mob used, abused and ruined. If you have not seen that one, well worth watching. Gives a true insight into the dark side of the fight game.
Cheers Steve.
Danny

SBoyce · 08-09-2003, 12:05 AM

Bogart is my favorite actor, I've seen most of his movies including "The Harder They Fall." That is a great flick. Bogie also co-stared with Edward G. Robinson and Bette Davis in a more fictional but similar in the message film called, "Kid Gallahad". It is a pretty good film and I believe they later remade it starring Elvis Presley.

Another one I liked was the James Earl Jones movie based on the life of Jack Johnson, "The Great White Hope."

There is an older flick about Jim Corbett starring Errol Flynn called, "Gentleman Jim." Although not as serious and dark as "the Harder they Fall", "The Great White Hope" or "Dempsey" it is an excellent look at Corbett, Sullivan and the early days of modern boxing. Very enjoyable.

wildhawke11 · 08-09-2003, 12:31 AM

Steve
No i have never seen the first Kid Gallahad only the one with Elvis in.
I have seen Gentlemen Jim with Flynn in it, a friend of mine about 20 years younger then me is Errol Flynn mad

He has so many films on that guy.

I have never seen The Great White Hope though !!!!

Talking about Bogart,
loved the film African Queen

SBoyce · 08-09-2003, 12:56 PM

I liked the African Queen. My favs are The Treasure of Sierra Madre, The Maltese Falcon, The Caine Mutiny and In a Lonley Place. Key Largo wasn't bad either and, oh yeah, Casablanca didn't stink.

Way before my time but a great actor with a large list of quality work.

Try to find The Great White Hope. It is dark and troubling at times just as Johnson's life must have been. Like The Harder They Fall they didn't use the actual names and there may be some creative license taken. James Earl Jones is fantastic in the lead role.

wildhawke11 · 08-09-2003, 01:35 PM

Thanks for the Tips
The Caine Mutiny yes Great Film he was Brill in that one.

Cap · 08-09-2003, 11:12 PM

Sure. Yeah. Bogart was good, but could he steal a scene like WC Fields or dominate action like John "The Duke" Wayne? I'd put him in my top ten, but no way he's number 1.

Cap

(tongue firmly in cheek)

08-07-2003, 09:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
Teraxx Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 107	The Willard/Dempsey fight debate - SOLVED! An excerpt from a 1998 harcover book I have called "Boxing Greats" by Steve Bunce w/ a foreword by Ed Brophy, President of the Intl. Boxing Hall of Fame-- "Dempsey was accused of having his fists taped with insulation tape - so-called loaded bandages. Doc Kearns's son (Dempsey's trainer was Doc), said his father admitted using a mixture to harden the bandages my note, like Plaster of Paris, but either way it would have made little difference as Willard was out of condition and easy to hit." So, there you have it...

08-08-2003, 12:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
ucclark Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 221	Well, an admission of guilt from Doc Kearns, who was, at best, a serial liar, means nothing. Remember, it was Kearns who started the entire "loaded gloves" controversey, when he was a broke old man looking to stir up some interest in ancient and make a few bucks. I honestly don't know if his gloves were loaded or not, but anything that came out of the mouth of Doc Kearns shouldn't be given much weight. __________________ http://lba.bravehost.com Home of the Linear Boxing Association

08-08-2003, 02:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
ucclark Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 221	I agree with you, wildhawke. The "loaded gloves" stories all originate with Kearns, and Kearns....well, ethically speaking, he was a little shaky. Yes, Willard was pretty beat up, but I've seen guys get beaten to death in the ring without "loaded gloves". I once saw Tim Witherspoon erase a man's nose with a single punch -- it was just gone. Well, some of it was still sort of there, but it was way up on his cheek, and it didn't look much like a nose anymore. The point is, I fail to see why Willard's injuries couldn't have come naturally. Besides, if Dempsey were willing to stoop to such levels against Willard, then why didn't he "load his gloves" for the rematch with Tunney? It's not impossible that Dempsey loaded his gloves, but there is no real evidence to support it, other than an injured opponent and the word of Doc Kearns. Keep in mind, I'm not much of a Dempsey fan. I just find the whole story rather unconvincing. __________________ http://lba.bravehost.com Home of the Linear Boxing Association

08-09-2003, 12:31 AM	#15 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	Steve No i have never seen the first Kid Gallahad only the one with Elvis in. I have seen Gentlemen Jim with Flynn in it, a friend of mine about 20 years younger then me is Errol Flynn mad He has so many films on that guy. I have never seen The Great White Hope though !!!! Talking about Bogart, loved the film African Queen Last edited by wildhawke11 : 08-09-2003 at 12:33 AM.

08-09-2003, 11:12 PM	#18 (permalink)
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 4,004	Bogart Number 1 Sure. Yeah. Bogart was good, but could he steal a scene like WC Fields or dominate action like John "The Duke" Wayne? I'd put him in my top ten, but no way he's number 1. Cap (tongue firmly in cheek) Attached Images

08-08-2003, 12:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
BrocktonBlockBuster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 280	No doubt about it,Dempsey's gloves were loaded. No fighter since has ever sustained the amount/kind of injuries that Willard recieved. I can't recall his exact injuries but they were severe?

08-08-2003, 12:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
BrocktonBlockBuster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 280	This subjected has been examined in the past. I heard Dr. Ferdie Pachecco talk about this fight. He has years of experience examining countless fighters. He stated that he has neither seen or ever heard of a fighter recieving the kinds of injuries in the ring that Willard suffered in that fight.

08-08-2003, 01:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	More likely Willard thought that he was to big, to strong, for a little guy like Dempsey. So came in well out of condition. If you look at a pic of Willard, yes he looks big, but he looks to me right out of condition, If Dempsey had loaded gloves he must have normally punched like a Flyweight. Think about it, was it 7 times Willard got up, strange how Dempsey did not do the same in the other rounds, with those so called deadly loaded gloves. Did he suddenly in the fight remove the wrappings and do it off his own steam. for the other rounds. First it was the wrappings, then the bolt story, Don't forget Jack and the Doc parted on real bad terms and Doc by then knowing he had lost his money machine was more then just a little angry, So he would be in no mood to do Dempsey any favours in the future. Doc would say anything to make money, or get noticed, He cheated, lied all his life, So why believe him when he was down on his luck.. As far as i know no one has ever proved the storys to be true. unless they can come up with proof i will just take it as being storys. But who knows.

08-08-2003, 02:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Im sorry no way he beats this guy like this,but then never put on a performance like that again.

08-08-2003, 04:08 AM	#9 (permalink)
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	And i point to this again. Dempsey never came close to putting a similar performance like that again. And lets not forget this was a fight for the belt Dempsey first title fight.

08-08-2003, 04:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
Mark42661 All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 550	Here's an interesting detailed account of the Dempsey-Willard fight that I ran across while surfing the web: http://www.bayview.ci.toledo.oh.us/fight/DempWill.html

08-08-2003, 01:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	Mark That was a great read, Thank you. To be honest Dempsey always has been a favourite of mine, So i am pretty sure you know by now that i have a fairly good insight into Dempsey the Man and Dempsey the fighter. In a way Mark old timers interest me even more then the more modern fighters. The hardships most had to endure, sometimes going into the ring weak from lack of eating i could go on but i know you are the sort of person who if he is interested in something puts himself out to study and learn more. So i would be telling you nothing you don't know. There was a film made about Dempsey i have it on video its called (Dempsey) not in the class of Raging Bull but still pretty good and the characters such as Kearns and such are well played and very believable. Another film i think you might like is Hard Times with Charles Bronson playing the part of a a bare knuckle fighter and James Coburn playing his manger. That film is based loosely on Jack Dempseys early career. About a year ago i bought another book that was about 26 years old on Dempsey, wrote by his step daughter. It was a First Edition Hardback but in great condition, Thanks again for that Dempsey Read Mark.

08-08-2003, 07:07 PM	#12 (permalink)
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	"Dempsey" was a good little movie. I thought Treat Williams was excellent as Dempsey. The movie, like its subject, was very interesting.

08-08-2003, 07:49 PM	#13 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	Hi Steve Glad you saw that one, and reminded me of the guy who played Dempsey in that film. Thanks I was just to lazy to go upstairs and dig it out from among my other stuff and look again to see the guys name. My wife calls the room i store all my boxing treasure, films, papers, books etc etc the Junk Room. LOL Another very good film ( you might know this one ) was The Harder They Fall with Humprey Bogart, very gritty and very realistic boxing film. about the life of Primo Carnera the guy the mob used, abused and ruined. If you have not seen that one, well worth watching. Gives a true insight into the dark side of the fight game. Cheers Steve. Danny

08-09-2003, 12:05 AM	#14 (permalink)
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	Bogart is my favorite actor, I've seen most of his movies including "The Harder They Fall." That is a great flick. Bogie also co-stared with Edward G. Robinson and Bette Davis in a more fictional but similar in the message film called, "Kid Gallahad". It is a pretty good film and I believe they later remade it starring Elvis Presley. Another one I liked was the James Earl Jones movie based on the life of Jack Johnson, "The Great White Hope." There is an older flick about Jim Corbett starring Errol Flynn called, "Gentleman Jim." Although not as serious and dark as "the Harder they Fall", "The Great White Hope" or "Dempsey" it is an excellent look at Corbett, Sullivan and the early days of modern boxing. Very enjoyable.

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08-09-2003, 12:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	I liked the African Queen. My favs are The Treasure of Sierra Madre, The Maltese Falcon, The Caine Mutiny and In a Lonley Place. Key Largo wasn't bad either and, oh yeah, Casablanca didn't stink. Way before my time but a great actor with a large list of quality work. Try to find The Great White Hope. It is dark and troubling at times just as Johnson's life must have been. Like The Harder They Fall they didn't use the actual names and there may be some creative license taken. James Earl Jones is fantastic in the lead role.

08-09-2003, 01:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	Thanks for the Tips The Caine Mutiny yes Great Film he was Brill in that one.