Another Tyson needed........Lewis too...

[Dr.K]

I'm not so sure about "retired" Tyson in the database. To my knowledge of Mike I can only recall Buster Douglas knocking him down and out and that was for the first time in his career pre jail and mostly down to Mike being out of condition.

I guess my point is the "retired" Mike in the database seems to be rated upto at the very least the Holyfield Bite Fight, when maybe "retired" mike should have been rated up until he went jail for rape at which time he'd only been knocked down once and out by Buster. Mike's career has had three signifcant eras. This I feel is no different to the following;

There are three versions of Ali in TBCB. (Pre Draft Issue Era, Golden era of early 70's, Post Foreman Fight Era).

There are three versions of Holyfield in TBCB. (Cruiser domination , HW elite years retired , active era).

The Tyson let's call him Tyson 1 (Retired) that fought right through becoming undisputed champion, losing to Douglas then onto the Razor Ruddock fights and ready to be matched with Holyfield before injury and jail intervened is surely a different Tyson to the Tyson let's say Tyson 2 that restarted his career 3 years later to win the championship again?

Tyson 2 (Retired) would represent Tyson post jail to the Holyfield fights a much shorter era but needed nonetheless as Tyson was not the Tyson of old but still a force and very much expected to beat Holyfield. People say Tyson was a bully and Holyfield beating himk proves it, well I disagree, Holyfield has been a great champion like Mike was in the era before, but I can't remember him wimping out in this fight I thought it was a good fight, he just lost. All fighters lose someday.

Tyson 3 (Active) Is the Mike we see today. Again adifferent Mike after another long layoff to Mike 2

Finally,

Holyfield HW retired represents Evander at peak as a HW and rightly so....but then where is Lennox Lewis at his peak? He's listed as active and so is Evander, but Lennox is not represented at his peak. Lennox has been a great champion too, compare his record to Evander's HW record. Last time I looked Evander had lost 7 times in his career and Lennox just twice and Tyson 4 Times, twice to Evander including dq and the freak Buster result and finally to Lewis when well past his prime.

So have I got a case for Three separate Mike Tyson's? Like the three Ali's? And there must be a case for inclusion of LEnnox Lewis at his peak?


what does anyone else think?
just my views as I love TBCB and all it's predecessors!!!

[Jim Trunzo]

I think that your analysis has merit. Our problem is that there really shouldn't be versions of Tyson and Holyfield (other than Cruiserweight, a division that needs all the help it can get) in the Retired fighters at this time. It's a long story:

1. Tyson was placed in the Retired file because he went to prison and there was doubt about whether or not he would return to boxing. In addition, due to the length of his incarceration, he was going to be missing from the game for an extended period of time.

2. Holyfield is an anomaly. His career looked over several different times, and when we looked at what appeared to be his imminent retirement and the length of his career, we decided to put him in the Retired group in his prime because it had been so long since we thought that we'd seen it.

Now we have ourselves in a catch-22. Take them out or add others who deserve it. Theoritically, we could do this for dozen of fighters. Tyson may merit consideration but not Lennox Lewis at this point, in my opinion.

Just a note for the sake of stirring the waters: the Tyson who fought Razor Ruddock was slipping noticeably already. Watch those fights and see if he hadn't already abandoned most of his head movement, a lot of the combination punching, etc. that made him special.

Also, Mike Tyson is a figure of some controversy about where he stands among the heavyweights. Ruddock made his entire reputation off his two fights with Tyson. He was nobody before and nobody after - so what does this say for Tyson? And aside from Holyfield, who were Tyson's notable opponents? Trevor Berbick - ordinary; Bonecrusher Smith (19-5 when he fought Tyson for the WBA title) - took Tyson the distance; Pinklon Thomas - great potential wasted on a tragic drug habit.

Who else? A shot Larry Holmes; a blown-up light-heavy in Michael Spinks (who was given a gift decision in his first fight with Holmes to begin with);Tony Tucker, a nice boxer; Frank Bruno? Carl Williams? Ruddock - in the 2nd fight Tyson had him down twice and couldn't finish him! Bruce Seldon - a fight after which Tyson was stripped of the WBC title for not defending against mandatory Lennox Lewis!

I think Tyson is a Top Twenty heavyweight on physical attributes alone and, like we always and correctly argue, you can't blame a fighter if the competition isn't there. You just have to judge him on what he did against that competition.

However, Marciano would have stopped Tyson, as would have Joe Louis. Ali decisions him. A prime Larry Holmes decisions him, I think. George Foreman stops him. I'd take Tyson over Liston . . . I think, maybe, hmmm. Tyson loses to Riddick Bowe if Bowe is at his best. Let's see: Tyson kills Floyd Patterson, Max Schmeling, beats Jersey Joe Walcott, has life and death with Ezzard Charles but probably takes him, even money against Joe Frazier. Oh and beats Mel Turnbow!

[shane6969]

While on the subject of adding 2 versions of a fighter, I believe that Australian Lester Ellis might be worthy of this honour. In the game he is rated as an 38 year old MW who had just returned to the ring after a 6 year absence, a different fighter to the prime Lester Eliis of 1985, when he was the IBF JLW world champion and only 19 years old. I believe you could justifiably have both of these two very different versions of this boxer, an active MW and a retired JLW, one 38 years old , one 19 years old, in the game. (I believe the ratings for the MW Ellis in the game are extremely accurate).

Cheers,

Shane.

[Rasmuth]

Tyson over Liston? Thats a tough call.

[darthpb]

Tyson over Liston...NOPE!!!

[hamed]

Jim, I'm glad you have a # of versions of Tyson. I use those so he can fight up or down to the competition he faces. Tyson was my IBF champ - knocking out Liston to win the title. He had 1 defense against Bowe (15UD) & then last June fought V. Klitschko. I used the "6" Tyson (same as Vitali) & in a pretty good bout, Klitschko knocked out Mike in the 9th.

[Dr.K]

Hi Jim thanks for the reply!! Methinks you may be biased against the pugilist specialist and conquering Lion Lennox Lewis..but I'll come to that later.

First let me breakdown your answer about Iron Mike. I agree that putting Mike in the retired list was correct, my only issue is what exactly is Mike's prime?

Surely his peak performance was against Spinks? No matter what anyone says Spinks was undefeated and even Ring magazine ran an article based on a computer sim of the bout predicting Spinks to win. 90 secs later Iron Mike was undisputed HW champ.

Mike despite his poor condition lost to Buster in his prime and yes looked a different fighter through the Ruddock fight but was still at his peak if though we didn't know it already on the decline. My point is, if retired Mike in the database represents a Tyson at his prime before jail, then his chin rating could be a 1 instead of a 2, only Douglass had knocked him down in his career at that point. Douglass a poor puncher I hear people say?

Buster Douglass was not exactly the mug history has made him out to be, he did fight for title before against Tony Tucker.

Douglass boxed well in fact had a career night against an under prepared Tyson. I would argue Mike's aggression rating may be lower than it should, I beleive it's graded 8 instead of maybe a little higher.

Mike's conditioning rating seems very low too but now I'm quibbling, it was only after Tyson got rid of corner men like Rooney that his conditioning went awry.

I know Tyson must be one of if not the hardest boxers to rate mainly because his career was halted when at his peak and their is such a stark contrast from the Tyson whose aura in a ring was so mesmerising to the sad boxer (though still a contender) we see today.

As you say and I agree a boxer is only as good as the competiton faced. Tyson at his prime however would have given the HW of the 70's a good run for their money too, his defence, speed of punch and head movement plus excellent mgt and corner would have guaranteed that. On the subject of who he fought in his prime?

Berbick, Tucker, Tubbs, Thomas, Spinks, Smith were all champions at some point in their careers, maybe not all linear but champions nonetheless.

I could also throw back who has Holyfield beaten? Bowe once out of three fights, an old George Foreman, post prime Tyson?

Holyfield is no doubt a great boxer and for longevity and his courage gets into my top 10. ( I just wish Tyson would have kept his cool in the bite fight because by no means in the little of the fight that took place was Evander dominant)

And Bowe? Holyfield twice. Never got to fight Mike and ran from Lewis. Bowe's legacy is his fight series with Holyfield.

On your other point, I agree totally that Holyfield is an anomoly and agree that he should also have a retired version. I also believe it to be as accurate as can be.

The catch 22? I believe there are a handfull of boxers as you say that are current and at the end of their careers who may need a younger "retired" version of themself in the game. e.g Lennox Lewis.

Aha!! Lennox. I'm a brit from Jamaican parents so will fight Lennox's corner as best I can. I believe Lennox active is rated 9 and Bowe retired is 12. Bowe never fought Lennox and never fought Tyson, preffering to run from Lewis, unlike another Jamaican/Canadian Ruddock who bravely took on Lewis once and Tyson twice.



Lennox has beaten everyone put before him, Holyfield (twice?), Tyson, Grant, Tua, Ruddock, Mercer, Bruno, Botha, Golota, Briggs, Klitschko. He's been a world champion since 1992. The knock on Lennox is that he is too hesistant and has a suspect chin as McCall and Rahman pointed out. But they are his only defeats and he avenged them both.

Lennox I must remind can also be spectacular. Ruddock, Botha and Grant were blasted out and his destruction of Golota was spectacular. The thing missing with Lennox is that unlike Bowe and Tyson who enjoyed classic fights with Holyfield, Lewis has no natural arch rival though he beat Holyfield and Tyson. Bowe ran as did Tyson when he returned from jail.

So why Lennox to have a retired version of himself?? Let's say I wanted to create the fight that never was; Lewis vs Bowe for the WBC crown in 1993, would it be an accurate matchup using the active version of Lennox (9) vs retired Bowe (12)? I would also say that Sugar Ray Leonard is included in the database at middleweight. But unless I'm wrong Sugar Ray only had one bout at middleweight albeit the epic against Hagler.

Case for retired Lewis?

and any others like Ellis or Ayala?

The same could be said for De La Hoya, etc modern boxers still fighting who excelled at lower weight divisions who do not have a retired version of themselves in TBCB.


I appreciate the love and detail put into TBCB it's awesome, however just feel Lennox not represented and Tyson's chin not right.

And finally as for Tyson being a Top 20 Heavyweight? I'd put him Top 10!! For his impact on boxing alone, not even Ali could draw a crowd like Tyson in his prime and we are talking prime. My Top 10.

1. Ali (Longevity, skills, style, impact on boxing, aura)
2. Marciano (Power, record)
3. Louis (Skills, style, impact on boxing, aura)
4. Dempsey (Power, style, impact, aura)
5. Holmes (skills, record pre-comeback)
6. Foreman (power, comeback, aura)
7. Frazier (power, skills-fights with Ali)
8. Johnson (Originality, skills, aura)
9. Tyson (Skills, power, impact on boxing, aura)
10. Lewis (Skills, Longevity, Size)

Tunney (who on skills was great) Charles, Walcott, Liston, get an honorable mention.

BTW Peak Tyson pre-jail would handle Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe!!!

One more point, There's been an excellent thread written about eavyweight history, count the times Tyson is dropped, I even think he is knocked out by Carl "The Truth" Williams!!

So Jim waddaya say??? Tyson to be looked at again specially the chin thing, maybe agrression too and Lewis needs a retired version, how else am I gonna prove Lewis is a top 10 all time.

Thanks again Jim TBCB and my first game Title Bout board game have kept me interested in boxing and the arguments around it. Please let me know your thoughts, I promise you I'm done!!

cheers!!!

[wildhawke11]

Dr K

Read my write up on Tyson in the
Tyson v Holmes posting

I think you might like it
Cheers LOL

[Dr.K]

Nice one wildhawk!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one who think's Tyson a little underated in the game. But seriously I think because he's been around so long and the dramatic impact of his arrival into boxing we tend to forget how great he was. Also Tyson's career arrived at a time when telecommunications has been at it's greatest so we are able to scrutinize his boxing in a much closer fashion than say Marciano/Dempsey.

I grew up as a little boy with hazy memories of Ali's fights and a bit clearer memories of Holmes' fights, but Tyson's career has been right in my wheelhouse.

The fighter that was Mike Tyson and the impact will never be seen again, my hope is that history will be much kinder to Mike Tyson once his career is over.......who knows he may be champion again one day...

(Isn't that the whole tease about Tyson!!)

I can't wait till Jim replies now!!!!

[PittPanther]

I can't see any top ten list that doesn't have Jack Johnson in it. Just can't do it.

Anyway, will the career stages project address some of these concerns?

[Dr.K]

And right you are too!! I knew I'd forgetton someone and the lord only knows why I've put Holyfield in there.....he's gone now!!!

[PittPanther]

Good riddance! Just kidding all you Evander fans out there.

[Cap]

You know, the really great thing about TBCB is that if you don't agree with how a favourite fighter is rated, and you have the confidence in your judgement to do it, you can adjust those ratings until he suits you! You can even add fighters that the makers missed!

Cap