Who is Lem Franklin and why is he beating me up?

mking55 · 01-11-2004, 11:11 PM

I decided just for the hell of it to have George Chuvalo who is a '9' in the game fight every fighter rated '5' and up 10 times each.

To the surprise of no one who ever watched George fight, once he hit the fighters rated '8', he lost more than he won.

So, my first question is why the '9' if he can't beat the 8's and the 9's?

The other thing that shocked me is a fighter named Lem Franklin who is rated a '6' in the game, beat Chuvalo 10 out of 10 times. So I refought them 999 times and Franklin beat Chuvalo 538-431 with 30 draws.

I looked up Franklin on boxrec.com and he had a lifetime record of 30-14 between 1937 and 1944. His career ended when he died of a brain concussion after a fight against Larry Lane (lifetime 27-22). My boxing knowledge is spotty at best but when I looked at his record which doesn't seem great, I hadn't heard of anyone he beat. However, that could be because I am not old enough to have seen fights in the 40's.

So, my 2nd question is, why is Lem Franklin a George Chuvalo slayer? Perhaps some of you historians of the game could enlighten me.

I will never get Chuvalo to hold a championship unless I limit his division to him and the '5' rated boxers and under. Maybe.

JeffR · 01-12-2004, 12:59 AM

First, if you're using the default cutman, you need to change his reduce swelling rating to 9 or 10 so he can control the swelling that's inevitably going to happen because of Chuvalo's lousy defense; the swelling routines are still being worked on, apparently. I ran 100 fights between them using good cutmen and the result was 48-48-4.

Don't read too much into the overall rating - the way that the ratings interact is much more important. Franklin has good control and punching ratings; toss in Chuvalo's defense and that lets him land a lot more punches than George will. Franklin's chin is a little shaky, so Chuvalo will get some KO's, but if he can't knock him out Franklin will have the edge.

Franklin's record actually isn't too dissimilar to Chuvalo's: he fought a lot of the top contenders of his day, beat some, and lost to others. He stopped Abe Simon faster than Joe Louis was able to in two tries. His ratings may be a little generous, but not by too much.

mking55 · 01-13-2004, 12:57 AM

This Franklin vs. Chuvalo contest has taken over my life.

I had each fighter fight 10 fights against ever other fighter rated 5 and over. What I am thinking is that overall rating (in the case of these 2 fighters anyways) is worthless. Remember, Franklin is a 6 and Chuvalo is a 9.

(The generic cut man is 9's so George doesn't go puffy on me all the time).

Franklin will have 10 more fights vs rated-9's while Chuvalo will have 10 more fights vs rated-6's because they don't fight themselves.

Franklin vs the rated-5's 518-130-12
Chuvalo vs the rated-5's 477-146-37

Franklin vs the rated-6's 296-99-15
Chuvalo vs the rated-6's 266-136-18

Franklin vs the rated-7's 223-138-9
Chuvalo vs the rated-7's 177-178-15

Franklin vs the rated-8's 125-98-7
Chuvalo vs the rated-8's 98-110-22

Franklin vs the rated-9's 83-98-19
Chuvalo vs the rated-9's 58-124-8

Franklin vs the rated-10's 23-82-5
Chuvalo vs the rated-10's 17-88-5

Franklin vs the rated 11's and above 17-158-5
Chuvalo vs the rated 11's and above 10-169-1

Lem Franklin bests George Chuvalo in every rating. Chulvalo loses the majority of his fights against the rated-8's (which is less than his 9), while Franklin wins the majority of his fights against the rated-8's (while he is only a 6).

Total Score.
George (9) Chuvalo 1103-951-106
Lem (6) Franklin 1285-803-72

What does it mean? With a huge (to me) difference such as this, should Chuvalo show a 9? Should Franklin be only a 6?

Is this an anomoly? If I do other comparisons will I find the same single rating discrepencies?

This is really fascinating. Help me understand. If the single rating isn't important or useless, tell me to ignore it. Just looking at these 2, it seems Franklin is an 8 or 9, and Chuvalo is a 6 or 7.

swampdragon · 01-13-2004, 02:45 AM

I think the overall rating is simply a computer score of the various ratings for the fighter, and the overall rating has no independent effect on the contests. It may be that we can tell from the strengths and weaknesses of Chuvalo and Franklin which categories the rating overemphasizes or doesn't pay enough attention to. Is Franklin also stronger against weaker competition?

swampdragon · 01-13-2004, 03:10 AM

OK. I went back into the program, tinkered with categories and their effect on overall rating. Franklin's chin ratings are 4/5/5, which are pretty terrible. Chuvalo's are 0/0/0, or perfect. Franklin has huge advantages in some significant categories: Punches landed- 40 to 34, CP 40 to 34, punches missed 60 to 65, and defense 2vs 6 for Chuvalo. Now I would be willing to guess that Chuvalo is significantly stronger than Franklin against the 1s and 2s, because he won't be susceptible to flash knockdowns. Against the good fighters, all the great chin does is cause him to lose by TKO or decision instead of being knocked out, because he misses a lot and he gets hit a lot.

If you lower Chuvalo's chin to 4/5/5, or the same as Franklin's, his overall rating drops to a 4. That's a lot of rating points to put in a single group of scores.

Jim Trunzo · 01-13-2004, 12:34 PM

In addition, and (LOL) this isn't an original though - styles make fights. If the majority of the fighters with low rankings are better boxers than they are sluggers, which is often the case for low-rated heavyweights - then your results make sense. Franklin's chin won't be tested as severely and Chuvalo's main asset will be moot. However, Franklin's strongest points will be magnified and Chuvalo's weakest characteristics will likewise come into play with much more significance.

If you really want to test this - put both fighters against only sluggers rated 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, no "Boxers" or "Either". That should tell the tell.

01-11-2004, 11:11 PM	#1 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	Who is Lem Franklin and why is he beating me up? I decided just for the hell of it to have George Chuvalo who is a '9' in the game fight every fighter rated '5' and up 10 times each. To the surprise of no one who ever watched George fight, once he hit the fighters rated '8', he lost more than he won. So, my first question is why the '9' if he can't beat the 8's and the 9's? The other thing that shocked me is a fighter named Lem Franklin who is rated a '6' in the game, beat Chuvalo 10 out of 10 times. So I refought them 999 times and Franklin beat Chuvalo 538-431 with 30 draws. I looked up Franklin on boxrec.com and he had a lifetime record of 30-14 between 1937 and 1944. His career ended when he died of a brain concussion after a fight against Larry Lane (lifetime 27-22). My boxing knowledge is spotty at best but when I looked at his record which doesn't seem great, I hadn't heard of anyone he beat. However, that could be because I am not old enough to have seen fights in the 40's. So, my 2nd question is, why is Lem Franklin a George Chuvalo slayer? Perhaps some of you historians of the game could enlighten me. I will never get Chuvalo to hold a championship unless I limit his division to him and the '5' rated boxers and under. Maybe.

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01-12-2004, 12:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
JeffR Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 480	First, if you're using the default cutman, you need to change his reduce swelling rating to 9 or 10 so he can control the swelling that's inevitably going to happen because of Chuvalo's lousy defense; the swelling routines are still being worked on, apparently. I ran 100 fights between them using good cutmen and the result was 48-48-4. Don't read too much into the overall rating - the way that the ratings interact is much more important. Franklin has good control and punching ratings; toss in Chuvalo's defense and that lets him land a lot more punches than George will. Franklin's chin is a little shaky, so Chuvalo will get some KO's, but if he can't knock him out Franklin will have the edge. Franklin's record actually isn't too dissimilar to Chuvalo's: he fought a lot of the top contenders of his day, beat some, and lost to others. He stopped Abe Simon faster than Joe Louis was able to in two tries. His ratings may be a little generous, but not by too much.

01-13-2004, 12:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	This Franklin vs. Chuvalo contest has taken over my life. I had each fighter fight 10 fights against ever other fighter rated 5 and over. What I am thinking is that overall rating (in the case of these 2 fighters anyways) is worthless. Remember, Franklin is a 6 and Chuvalo is a 9. (The generic cut man is 9's so George doesn't go puffy on me all the time). Franklin will have 10 more fights vs rated-9's while Chuvalo will have 10 more fights vs rated-6's because they don't fight themselves. Franklin vs the rated-5's 518-130-12 Chuvalo vs the rated-5's 477-146-37 Franklin vs the rated-6's 296-99-15 Chuvalo vs the rated-6's 266-136-18 Franklin vs the rated-7's 223-138-9 Chuvalo vs the rated-7's 177-178-15 Franklin vs the rated-8's 125-98-7 Chuvalo vs the rated-8's 98-110-22 Franklin vs the rated-9's 83-98-19 Chuvalo vs the rated-9's 58-124-8 Franklin vs the rated-10's 23-82-5 Chuvalo vs the rated-10's 17-88-5 Franklin vs the rated 11's and above 17-158-5 Chuvalo vs the rated 11's and above 10-169-1 Lem Franklin bests George Chuvalo in every rating. Chulvalo loses the majority of his fights against the rated-8's (which is less than his 9), while Franklin wins the majority of his fights against the rated-8's (while he is only a 6). Total Score. George (9) Chuvalo 1103-951-106 Lem (6) Franklin 1285-803-72 What does it mean? With a huge (to me) difference such as this, should Chuvalo show a 9? Should Franklin be only a 6? Is this an anomoly? If I do other comparisons will I find the same single rating discrepencies? This is really fascinating. Help me understand. If the single rating isn't important or useless, tell me to ignore it. Just looking at these 2, it seems Franklin is an 8 or 9, and Chuvalo is a 6 or 7.

01-13-2004, 02:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
swampdragon All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 1,732	I think the overall rating is simply a computer score of the various ratings for the fighter, and the overall rating has no independent effect on the contests. It may be that we can tell from the strengths and weaknesses of Chuvalo and Franklin which categories the rating overemphasizes or doesn't pay enough attention to. Is Franklin also stronger against weaker competition?

01-13-2004, 03:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
swampdragon All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 1,732	OK. I went back into the program, tinkered with categories and their effect on overall rating. Franklin's chin ratings are 4/5/5, which are pretty terrible. Chuvalo's are 0/0/0, or perfect. Franklin has huge advantages in some significant categories: Punches landed- 40 to 34, CP 40 to 34, punches missed 60 to 65, and defense 2vs 6 for Chuvalo. Now I would be willing to guess that Chuvalo is significantly stronger than Franklin against the 1s and 2s, because he won't be susceptible to flash knockdowns. Against the good fighters, all the great chin does is cause him to lose by TKO or decision instead of being knocked out, because he misses a lot and he gets hit a lot. If you lower Chuvalo's chin to 4/5/5, or the same as Franklin's, his overall rating drops to a 4. That's a lot of rating points to put in a single group of scores.

01-13-2004, 12:34 PM	#6 (permalink)
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 740	In addition, and (LOL) this isn't an original though - styles make fights. If the majority of the fighters with low rankings are better boxers than they are sluggers, which is often the case for low-rated heavyweights - then your results make sense. Franklin's chin won't be tested as severely and Chuvalo's main asset will be moot. However, Franklin's strongest points will be magnified and Chuvalo's weakest characteristics will likewise come into play with much more significance. If you really want to test this - put both fighters against only sluggers rated 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, no "Boxers" or "Either". That should tell the tell.