Heavyweight Rankings 1960's

[Rocco Del Sesto]

My project I've been working on replaying HW Gerhard Zech's career and rating some of the HW's that he opposed that are not already in the game has led me to want to sort of expand upon this project into one creating a 1960's Heavyweight replay "universe" as I've seen that term used here on this forum.

I'd like to first do in part what Dean is doing with his 1960-62 rating project, and expand and go through the whole 1960's and first rate any Heavyweights that don't currently appear in the game who appeared at any time in the HW rankings thru the 60's. Also will try to do like I'm doing with Zech and enlarge the stable of HW's of other fighters especially from other countries. Then start a replay with 1960, using the existing at the time rankings and start working thru a replay to create not only World rankings but some of the "other" rankings like the European, British Commonwealth, South American titles, etc.

Which leads me to my question. Who or what is considered the most "repected" or followed rankings during the period that most everyone followed as far as considering them "the rankings that counted" in the boxing world? Did not Ring Magazine publish monthly rankings? I've heard other comments that many considered the Ring rankings as the ones that "counted". What are you all's feelings on that? Dean in his 1960-62 project has posted the rankings from his Boxing Illustrated magazine and mentions those as being the NBA rankings. How did those stand along side the Ring Rankings as far as what people felt counted on who ranked where?

What sourse should I best look at as far as the rankings go? Then the real big question, where can I get these rankings without having to spend a LOT of money trying to get old Ring magazines or other boxing publications?

Any thoughts/comments from anyone would be greatly appreciated to help me along furthuring this project once I get done with the Zech replay.

thanks
Rocco

[Cap]

Well, here, for starters, are The Ring Magazine's annual top ten rankings for 1959.

World Champion
Ingemar Johansson

1. Zora Folley
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Sonny Liston
4. Henry Cooper
5. Eddie Machen
6. Billy Hunter
7. Roy Harris
8. Mike DeJohn
9. Joe Erskine
10 Alex Miteff

Cap

You might also want to check Mike Paul's All-Time Rankings website.

[Heavyweight]

I have the rankings for 1960-1980 on my website. They are the Ring ratings top 10. The address is classicboxing.tk

1960
Champ- Floyd Patterson (55-8-1) 40 ko's
1. Sonny Liston (50-4) 39 ko's
2. Ingemar Johansson (26-2) 17 ko's
3. Eddie Machen (50-11-3) 29 ko's
4. Zora Folley (79-11-5) 44 ko's
5. Henry Cooper (40-14-1) 27 ko's
6. Mike DeJohn (46-12-1) 31 ko's
7. Bob Cleroux (48-6-1) 38 ko's
8. Alex Miteff (25-13-1) 15 ko's
9. Dick Richardson (29-14-2) 23 ko's
10 Joe Erskine (44-8-1) 13 ko's
1961
Champ- Floyd Patterson
1. Sonny Liston
2. Eddie Machen
3. Zora Folley
4. Alejandro Lavorante (19-5) 15 ko's
5. Bob Cleroux
6. Ingemar Johansson
7. Cleveland Williams (78-13-1) 58 ko's
8. Henry Cooper
9. Cassius Clay (56-5) 37 ko's
10. George Logan (23-9-1) 14 ko's as of 1964

1962
Champ- Sonny Liston
1. Floyd Patterson
2. Cassius Clay
3. Doug Jones (30-10-1) 19 ko's
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Zora Folley
6. Cleveland Williams
7. Bob Cleroux
8. Billy Daniels (23-21-4) 11 ko's
9. Archie Moore (194-26-8) 141 ko's
10. Henry Cooper

1963
Champ- Sonny Liston
1. Cassius Clay
2. Doug Jones
3. Ernie Terrell (46-9) 21 ko's
4. Cleveland Williams
5. Zora Folley
6. Eddie Machen
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Karl Mildenberger (53-6-3) 20 ko's
9. George Chuvalo (73-18-2) 64 ko's
10.Brian London (37-20-1) 26 ko's

1964
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams
5. George Chuvalo
6. Zora Folley
7. Karl Mildenberger
8. Roger Rischer (26-10-2) 13 ko's as of 1966
9. Eddie Machen
10.Doug Jones

1965
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Ernie Terrell
2. Floyd Patterson
3. George Chuvalo
4. Karl Mildenberger
5. Zora Folley
6. Amos Lincoln (39-15-3) 23 ko's
7. Thad Spencer (32-13-1) 14 ko's
8. Doug Jones
9. Hubert Hilton (17-7-2) 10 ko's as of 1968
10.Brian London

1966
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Ernie Terell
2. Zora Folley
3. Thad Spencer
4. Floyd Patterson
5. Karl Mildenberger
6. Joe Frazier (32-4-1) 27 ko's
7. Oscar Bonavena (58-9-1) 44 ko's
8. George Chuvalo
9. Johnny Persol (19-4-1) 5 ko's as of 1968
10.Manuel Ramos (26-24-3) 22 ko's as of 1974

1967
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Joe Frazier
2. Thad Spencer
3. Jimmy Ellis (40-12-1) 24 ko's
4. Manuel Ramos
5. Jerry Quarry (53-9-4) 33 ko's
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Eduardo Corletti (33-15-5) 18 ko's
9. Karl Mildenberger
10.Ernie Terrell

1968
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Joe Frazier
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Oscar Bonavena
4. George Chuvalo
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jerry Quarry
7. Leotis Martin (31-5) 19 ko's
8. Manuel Ramos
9. Al Lewis (30-6) 19 ko's
10.Floyd Patterson

1969
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Joe Frazier
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Leotis Martin
5. Mac Foster (30-6) 30 ko's
6. Sonny Liston
7. Oscar Bonavena
8. (Florida) Al Jones (33-3-2) 18 ko's
9. Henry Cooper
10.Gregorio Peralta (93-9-9) 57 ko's

1970
Champ- Joe Frazier
1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman (76-5) 68 ko's
3. Oscar Bonavena
4. Jerry Quarry
5. Mac Foster
6. Henry Cooper
7. George Chuvalo
8. Sonny Liston
9. Jose Ibar Urtain (56-11-4) 44 ko's
10.Jose Luis Garcia (28-8-1) 18 ko's as of 1976





1971
Champ- Joe Frazier
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jerry Quarry
3. George Foreman
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Mac Foster
6. Jimmy Ellis
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Jose Luis Garcia
9. Jack Bodell (54-13) 28 ko's
10.Joe Bugner (69-13-1) 41 ko's
1972
Champ- Joe Frazier
1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Jimmy Ellis
4. Ron Lyle (43-7-1) 32 ko's
5. Floyd Patterson
6. Ernie Terrell
7. Jose Roman (53-24-3) 26 ko's
8. Joe Bugner
9. Ken Norton (42-7-1) 33 ko's
10.Jose Luis Garcia

1973
Champ- George Foreman
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ken Norton
4. Jerry Quarry
5. Ron Lyle
6. Earnie Shavers (73-14-1) 67 ko's
7. Oscar Bonavena
8. Joe Bugner
9. Jimmy Ellis
10.Chuck Wepner (35-14-2) 17 ko's

1974
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ron Lyle
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Joe Bugner
6. Ken Norton
7. Jerry Quarry
8. Chuck Wepner
9. Henry Clark (32-12-4) 7 ko's
10.Larry Middleton (23-9-1) 14 ko's

1975
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Ken Norton
2. Jimmy Young (32-18-2) 10 ko's
3. Joe Frazier
4. George Foreman
5. Ron Lyle
6. Earnie Shavers
7. Duane Bobick (48-4) 42 ko's
8. Joe Bugner
9. Chuck Wepner
10.Randy Neumann (30-6) 11 ko's as of 1976

1976
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Ken Norton
3. Jimmy Young
4. Duane Bobick
5. Ron Lyle
6. Larry Holmes (68-6) 45 ko's
7. Howard Smith (17-2) 10 ko's
8. Johnny Boudreaux (21-5-1) 7 ko's
9. Stan Ward (21-7-2) 8 ko's
10.Joe Bugner

1977
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Ken Norton
2. Jimmy Young
3. Larry Holmes
4. Ron Lyle
5. Duane Bobick
6. Earnie Shavers
7. Kallie Knoetze (21-6) 20 ko's
8. Alfredo Evangelista (62-13-4) 42 ko's
9. Leon Spinks (26-17-3) 14 ko's
10.Gerrie Coetzee (33-6-1) 21 ko's

1978
Champ- Muhammad Ali
1. Larry Holmes
2. Ken Norton
3. Leon Spinks
4. Ron Lyle
5. Jimmy Young
6. Kallie Knoetze
7. Alfredo Evangelista
8. Gerrie Coetzee
9. Ossie Ocasio (23-13-1) 12 ko's
10. Domingo D'Elia (23-2-2) 10 ko's

1979
Champ- Larry Holmes
1. John Tate (33-3) 22 ko's
2. Gerrie Coetzee
3. Mike Weaver (41-18-1) 28 ko's
4. Earnie Shavers
5. Leroy Jones (24-1-1) 12 ko's
6. Lorenzo Zanon (28-6-3) 11 ko's
7. Alfredo Evangelista
8. Gerry Cooney (28-3) 24 ko's
9. Scott Ledoux (32-13-4) 21 ko's
10. Ken Norton

1980
Champ- Larry Holmes
1. Mike Weaver
2. Gerry Cooney
3. Leon Spinks
4. Micheal Dokes (53-6-2) 33 ko's
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Marty Monroe (22-2-1) 14 ko's
7. Trevor Berbick (50-11-1) 32 ko's
8. Greg Page (58-16-1) 48 ko's
9. Bernardo Mercado (33-5) 27 ko's
10.Ken Norton

[vistaman44]

Wow! Great time-saving post, Heavyweight! Thanks!

I'll start the trialhorse posting with someone I'm surprised isn't in the game: Giuseppe "Bepi" Ros of Italy. He was 44-16-2 with 24 KOs, 1965-76. He was the Italian heavyweight champion, and lost to Joe Bugner for the European crown. Key wins came against Jose Urtain, Mario Barruzzi, Dante Cane and Armando Zannini. He drew with Cane and lost to Alfredo Evangelista, Jurgen Blin, Lorenzo Zanon, Bugner, Cane, Bernd August, Barruzzi and Mac Foster.

Giuseppe "Bepi" Ros
Italy-2
1965-76
44-16-2, 24 KOs
b. 1949-09-22

Slugger/occasionally
CFB/S 7/7
HP 5
CKD 3
CKO 2
REC 3
CUTS 2
AP 2
KI 7
AGG 6
END 8
DEF 4
FS 2
OR 4
DP 2
CON 3
INT 5
PRF 10
FI 3
FO 1
CU 2
GK 3
CLI 70
Punches
J 16/3
H 18/5
CR 15/3
CB 15/3
UC 17/5
PL 34
CP 34
PM 60
Rate 2

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Hey Batboy!

So that's your website! I've been to it many times. A great Site. Thank you for those Ring rankings! Did ring in fact post rankings every month? Appreciate your time replying.

Mark, thanks for Ros. I'm going home tonight to look through my Title Bout board cards. For some reason I'm thinking he was in a set for it.

Thanks Cube also for your replay and those 59 rankings!

Rocco

[vistaman44]

I believe you're right, Rocco, now that you mention it. I'll dig my box out and look tonight ... see how mine compares against that one if he's there.

[vistaman44]

Originally posted by Cap
You might also want to check Mike Paul's All-Time Rankings website.

Do you have a web address on his site, Cap? I'd like to take a look. Thanks.

[JeffR]

Originally posted by vistaman44
Do you have a web address on his site, Cap? I'd like to take a look. Thanks.

http://geocities.com/mgpaul2/

[vistaman44]

Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate the quick response! (1:24 p.m.)

Just my luck --- clicked on link a few minutes ago, went to a Yahoo! page that says it has exceded its maximum something ... (2:05 p.m.)

Hope it'll be back up soon!

[swampdragon]

I think the best source for this type of replay is the game. Make a list of the fighters already in the game and then go on boxrec to see who they fought, who those fighters fought, etc., etc. You'll wind up with a tree of fighters that branches as far as you want to take it. Then you'll have to decide what to do with them. I'm in the 1880s and using the boxrec history, refighting all the significant fights shown on boxrec and adding to them as my history requires. I'm not sure it's practical to do that with the 60s, because there would be literally hundreds of heavyweight fights per month, but it would be a lot of fun to try.

[vistaman44]

Very similar to my method, Dragon.

My 1940-50 universe started by getting the Ring annual rankings, then listing opponents who those guys fought who had many fights or winning records from BoxRec and old Ring Record Books. Then I copied over the names I recognized from the Men menu to my 1940 group. When I knew who was in TBCB and who wasn't, I started creating fighters (picked up a few here, too.).

Just FYI, there were about 80 heavies from those 11 years in the game, and I added about 15. Conversely, there were only 12 or 14 flyweights in TBCB, but my division has about 45 now (gotta have at least 40 to keep it competitive IMHO).

Anyway, based on your numbers and mine, I'd have to agree the 1960s would be a pretty big universe to undertake, even if it's just heavyweights. Good luck, Rocco!

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Hi guys,

I was thinking about BoxRec also. I did a search by the various Boxing titles (European, South American, etc.) and it lists you out the opponents who fought in a title fight. It's a great source to kind of tell you also who some of the topped ranked fighters probably were at the time each title was fought for figuring they must have been considered top contenders at the time to even have fought in the various title fights. Gives you a lot of names that way also to look at records of "contenders".

Rocco

[djday45]

Rocco,
regarding ratings, each magazine has always carried it's own monthly ratings (mags such as the Ring, Boxing Illustrated and KO for example).
The NBA whose ratings I am posting was the National Boxing Association. They were a sort of American forerunner of the current alphabet organisations.
Back in this era the New York commision also wielded a lot of power and also recognised champs (and these were not always the same as the NBA). I am currently reading about when and why Sugar Ray Robinson was stripped by the NBA and Gene Fullmer became their champ while still being recognised by New York and other authorities.

I am not sure if New York or other states had there own ratings though.

All ratings have always been very subjective but you can get a good overall picture if you are able to look at multiple sources.

I will be more than happy to reproduce the rankings in my project as I read through the months.


rgds
Dean

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Dean,

Thanks for the info about the NBA. I was reading somewhere about what you mention on the New York commission and the weight it carried in the boxing world.

I'd love to see the rankings from your project as you go through it. Like you say, I guess all these ratings are very subjective so seeing some comparisons would be interesting to see.

The Mike Paul website has been mentioned. I'm familiar with it the HW rankings he'd created on it. He had top 10 rankings by months on it. I got copies of the files downloaded a while back. I'll see if I can post a few of them here and maybe for the fun of it copy the rankings you'd posted in your 60-62 thread here with them for comparison. I tried tonight to get on Mike Paul's site. It may be down now. A few short months back I know he posted that he wasn't going to be updating it anymore so maybe he's closed it down.

Rocco

[Rocco Del Sesto]

For some subjective comparison to the top 10 NBA rankings Dean has posted on his 60-62 thread, here's the Jan-March 1960 HW rankings from Mike Paul's site. The numbers beside the name represent the calculated value that ranks the fighters. His rankings he listed the current champion as the #1 in the top 10 list.



JANUARY 1960. Mike Paul Rankings
CHAMP.INGEMAR JOHANSSON
1.INGEMAR JOHANSSON 2383
2.SONNY LISTON 2323
3.FLOYD PATTERSON 2284
4.HAROLD JOHNSON 2258
5.ZORA FOLLEY 2256
6.EDDIE MACHEN 2228
7.HENRY COOPER 2183
8.ARCHIE MOORE 2181
9.ROY HARRIS 2161
10.TOMMY JACKSON 2154


FEBRUARY 1960. Mike Paul Rankings
CHAMP.INGEMAR JOHANSSON
1.INGEMAR JOHANSSON 2383
2.SONNY LISTON 2323
3.FLOYD PATTERSON 2284
4.EDDIE MACHEN 2261
5.HAROLD JOHNSON 2258
6.ZORA FOLLEY 2256
7.HENRY COOPER 2183
8.ARCHIE MOORE 2181
9.ROY HARRIS 2161
10.TOMMY JACKSON 2154


MARCH 1960. Mike Paul Rankings
CHAMP.INGEMAR JOHANSSON
1.INGEMAR JOHANSSON 2383
2.SONNY LISTON 2354
3.FLOYD PATTERSON 2284
4.EDDIE MACHEN 2261
5.HAROLD JOHNSON 2258
6.ZORA FOLLEY 2256
7.HENRY COOPER 2183
8.ARCHIE MOORE 2181
9.ALEX MITEFF 2165
10.ROY HARRIS 2161

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Mark,

I found my Ros card. Here in () is what the board game card has for him vs your ratings you posted.

Giuseppe "Bepi" Ros
Italy-2
1965-76
44-16-2, 24 KOs
b. 1949-09-22

Slugger/occasionally (A Foul Rating) (Boxer/Slugger)
CFB/S 7/7 (8/8)
HP 5 (8)
CKD 3 (3)
CKO 2 (2)
REC 3 (3)
CUTS 2 (5)
AP 2
KI 7 (7)
AGG 6 (9)
END 8 (85)
DEF 4 (+5)
FS 2
OR 4
DP 2
CON 3
INT 5
PRF 10
FI 3 (2)
FO 1 (2)
CU 2 (1)
GK 3 (2)
CLI 70 (70)
Punches
J 16/3 (17/5)
H 18/5 (17/5)
CR 15/3 (18/4)
CB 15/3 (6/1)
UC 17/5 (6/1)
PL 34 (37)
CP 34
PM 60 (63)
Rate 2 (6)

[vistaman44]

Wow. Wonder why so much discrepancy? I've been much closer on others (Soose, etc.). Ros would have been retired by the time the developers rated him ... Hmmmm. They seem to have given him a lot more credit than I did, and when we have differed previously, it's usually me giving too much.

I didn't have a chance to look for my game. Got any others from that time --- Alfio Righetti, Dane Cane (compare to yours?), Anders Eklund, Lucien Rodriguez, Felipe Rodriguez, et. al.--- so we can compare further?

[Rocco Del Sesto]

Hey Mark,

I didn't look that close, it was late last night when I looked at that. I do know Righetti is in there. The other names you mentioned I know are not. But, I'm pretty sure there's a few others that were not even in TF2001. I'll look some more tonight.

Rocco

[dempsonny]

Dante Cane is there I remember him from mine, maybe I'll post when I get home tonight, the others are not.

Gus

[vistaman44]

Thanks, Gus. I've rated the guys I listed (except for Cane, which Rocco did), and I'd be interested in your posting any of them so I can get an idea if there's a regular place where the developers and I might diverge in our ratings. Any others you notice who aren't in the new game would be great, too! LOL
Seriously, Ros concerns me because there were so many differences. Even though I felt comfortable with most of my earlier fighters (Jurich aside), I won't feel comfortable posting again until I figure out the discrepancies.
Thanks again for your help.

Edit: Another thing occurred to me after I posted this. I'm wondering what changes have been made in ranking methods/formulas since those 1980s cards and if Tom or Jim would care to comment on how they rated fighters then and now. Would Ros still be a 6 under the new system? I'd hate to start copying in rankings from those 20-year-old cards, and then find out the fighters overachieve or underachieve due to changes in methodology.