Is Boxing Dead? (warning some Klitschko spoilers here)

[Bonedwarf]

http://www.sundayherald.com/39514

Interesting piece about sporting myths. The puglism part is just over half way down.

[JCFLA]

Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy debunking myths and other long-held "truths".

Boxing probably won't die in my lifetime but it's certainly well past its peak and on the downhill slide.

Enjoyed the other article you linked as well. Another George Plimpton wanna-be gets knocked around.

[BCannon4]

Frank Warren needs to get off of the drugs. Boxing gyms have been closing at an alarming rate for the last 30 years. There are half as many professional boxers than there were in the past. There was a time when New York state alone held more boxing matches in a year than are held in the entire United States in a year today. With twice as many weight classes, half as many fighters, and with three “champion” per weight class the talent that is available is spread thin and yet Warren actually expects people to believe that boxing is thriving? What dream world is he living in? Boxing heyday has long since come and gone. Today there are far easier ways to make money. In the past the only sports where you could make any real money were Boxing and baseball. The age of the average boxing fan is getting older and few younger sports fans really give a crap about boxing. I can probably count the number of people that I know under the age of 35 who follow boxing on one hand. I don’t see boxing completely going out of existence within the next 50 years or so but I can easily envision it becoming even less and less relevant as a sport eventually becoming little more then a niche sport with a few but loyal fans left hanging on.

[Bonedwarf]

Another possible problem for boxing is the rise of things like UFC etc... I'm a big mixed martial arts fans. I think if someones going to be into a combat sport these days, UFC will give boxing a run for it's money.

The way boxing has gone is a great indication of why taking the route to a quick buck and going to PPV for a lot of it is a bad idea. There was a time in the early 90's I at least knew who the heavyweight champ was at the time. Or at least the main heavyweight champ. I now couldn't tell you.

[Cap]

I tend to think that boxing will continue to thrive in latino countries, and anywhere there are few other opportunities to make a good buck in sports.

Cap

[crusadecat]

I agree Cap. I heard somewhere what boxing needs is another economic depression to thrive again. Sports are cyclical in nature. Boxing has a history and a raw honesty that will continue to appeal to a segment of the sports population. I think some sort of commision would help boxing greatly. There has always been shadowy figures associated with boxing and I think there is some appeal to this but some standards to rid the corrupt nature would bring some sense of balance to the sport. The top atheletes in the usa atleast aren't drawn to boxing. They play football and basketball. I think if they created a Ring magazine format where there was just 1 champion at each weight class this would help out greatly.

[Bonedwarf]

The problem these days is money. Baseball, football, they all pay big bucks. More accurately HUGE bucks if you get to the big leagues.

And the fact is boxings structure is bizarre. How many governing bodies are there? All with slightly different rulesets etc... When someone goes to a baseball game, they know 3 strikes and the players out, 4 balls and he gets a walk etc...

With boxing, when a boxer goes down... "Okay, is the 3 knockdown rule in effect with this match or not?"

Too many cooks spoil the broth as the old cliche goes...

If nothing else, there needs to be more big name boxing on free TV. And not 3 weeks after the event.

[wildhawke11]

I live in UK your all right and Warren is wrong. You want boxing to have any chance of improving its status.

As i said in another thread grab the fight game by the scruff of the neck and throw most of the title belts in the rubbish bin, have only 10 or so divisions, and have one and only one World Champion.
We all know that's the route to take but to many are getting rich, when boxing is no longer any use to them sort of guys they will just move on to another sport or retire and laugh at us.

To make it survive in our world we need to attract at least some of the younger fans, it could be done if they go the right way about it. When Nigel Benn or young Mike Tyson were fighting my son and his friends or most young men in the street knew who they were. That's not the case today. even i could not tell you in all honesty who all the so called world champions are today, and i go back to the days when Sugar Ray Robinson fought Randy Turpin over here in UK for the World Title.


Show it on normal TV not PPV like it or not TV can make or break a sport today. Snooker, at one time regarded as a back street sport played in smelly old dives, became very big over here due to normal TV exposure Every young man i think picked up a snooker cue, and wanted to be like the guys he saw on TV. The last few years Rugby Football has been seen on TV its getting quite a fan base now if they dropped it from TV viewing it would fall back again i feel.

Who would have ever thought that darts would one day be played at international level instead of by a couple of guys just drinking a pint of beer in a bar. All again due to the TV.
Don't forget Warren has investments still in the fight game so what else would he say. You don't knock a product that your trying to sell, you do that after you have retired from that business.

[chaleyit]

This same dialogue came up in the late fifties and early sixties, then came Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Ken Norton. Were they much better than any other crop of fighters? Probably not but the drama these guys created captivated a nation. Ali knew how to sell. Boxing thrived once again and all of boxing benifited, so that you have a sort of renewed hey day lasting until the early ninties. Mike Tyson was to carry the torch until Buster Douglas came along.

It is all about marketing. Boxing has no one out there now that has marketing appeal. There is no charismatic figure that captivates the audience. Say what you want about the number of titles and the rules, but it is the fighter that generates the interest. There are no Ali's, Louis', Pre Douglas Tyson's, or Dempsey's out there now.

Any sport is as good as it's marketing value. Basketball rose into prominence when Magic, Bird, Isiah, and Jordon came along. THey are gone now and there is void. As a result the sport is declining. That is my take on it

[Dagrims]

The casual boxing fan thinks boxing is crooked right now. If Don King were to get hit by a bus tomorrow, this perception would have a chance of changing.

[BCannon4]

Wildhawke is 100% correct. Just imagine how much more interesting boxing would be today even with the paucity of talent if there were only ten weight classes and only one champion per division.

“to many are getting rich”

That’s another problem, to many of these scumbags care nothing about the sport or the fighters and are only interested in lining their own pockets with money. They are well on the way to killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Where are the new fans going to come from if they never have the chance to even be exposed to boxing? I remember growing up in the 70’s and almost all of my friends watched boxing and we used to argue about it all of the time. There were maybe one or two closed circuit telecasts a year and the rest of the major fights were available of free TV. Major title fights, sometimes several on the same card, were telecast in prime time on a Friday or Saturday night. When you have fights like Holmes vs. Butterbean on pay per view and talent less stiffs like John Ruiz headlining ppv cards you know that things have reached an absurd level.

[swampdragon]

Wildhawke is right about the PPV TV. You don't attract one new fan by putting your product on PPV. I remember when an occasional heavyweight title match would be on closed circuit Everything else was on the regular airwaves. We're having a rebirth in the U.S. right now of poker, of all things, and it's all because of the television coverage. With the dispersal of the television audience to 500 cable channels, I don't know why someone couldn't start a boxing channel and make some money. You'd need a big video library. For live time you could lease the time to the promoters, who could sell the commercial time and would have the incentive to put on a good card. It would start small, but it just might work.

[Bonedwarf]

Originally posted by swampdragon
Wildhawke is right about the PPV TV. You don't attract one new fan by putting your product on PPV. I remember when an occasional heavyweight title match would be on closed circuit Everything else was on the regular airwaves. We're having a rebirth in the U.S. right now of poker, of all things, and it's all because of the television coverage. With the dispersal of the television audience to 500 cable channels, I don't know why someone couldn't start a boxing channel and make some money. You'd need a big video library. For live time you could lease the time to the promoters, who could sell the commercial time and would have the incentive to put on a good card. It would start small, but it just might work.

I pretty much said that too. PPV is what's killed it. I can't remember the last BIG fight that was on free TV. And I sure as hell ain't paying out $60 for a damn PPV. PPV's are WAY too expensive.

I agree about Don King getting hit by a bus. Though if it hit his hair, it would probably just write the bus off...

[chaleyit]

Don King is not the problem with boxing. Don King is no worse than any other promoter out there. The problem is - and I will say it again - there is no fighter that captures the publics attention. The public is won by charismatic figures and not rule changes. History bears me out. Boxing thrived during Ali's lifetime because he captured the public interest. The same is true with Basketball during Jordon, Bird and Magic, and Baseball during Cal Ripkin. You can say what you want but the numbers are there to back up what I am saying.

Ali's biggest fight were on closed curcuit television. They were run on commercial television after the paid viewing. It is not pay per view. Basketball is all over free television yet interest is declining, why because there are no Bird's, or Jordon's to capture the public attention.

Don King is not the only crooked promoter out there. Do you know how many boxer's died broke due to crooked promoters. Don King is probably the most visible. I'll bet any amount of money, that if a charismatic figure arose, boxing would experience another heyday.

Like it or not Don King was another of the reasons for the resurgence of boxing. He knew how to sell. He gave the people villians and good guys. During his heyday, boxing experienced record revenues. What is happening is that boxing needs some fresh ideas. There have always been leeches in boxing who milked the profits. Don King's time has come and gone and boxing needs fresh blood. And above all, a couple of charismatic figures that the public will gain an interest in.

Actually Mike Tyson did more to hurt boxing than Don King. While Tyson was boxing people were watching. When he lost to Douglas and then had the legal problems it was a big let down to a lot of fans. There was no one else to inspire the public interest. Mike was boxing big hope after Ali, Hagler, Hearns and Leonard. Being the purist that you guys are it may be hard for you see this point. You are the most knowlegable group of guys I have ever known. You know the stats on the guys who were not big names. I became a fan under the reign of Ali, and carried over to the seventies with Duran, Leonard, and the eighties with Holmes, and Hagler. BUt no one out there interests me any more. I didn't mind the pay per view because I knew I would see the fight eventually. I would be right there during the evening sports report to get the results. Now there is no one that I care about. No one interests me any more. I believe I am closer to the general public's view than you guys because you are such ardent fans. I do not mean that I am smarter, that would be funny given your vast knowledge, but I believe I am more representative of the pulse of the general public

Free television is not showing boxing because the programming managers do not believe they will get the ratings. It is more profitable to charge $40 per person than it is to get poor rating and therefore less revenue on commercials. Free TV is all about commercials and the numbers are not there to support the fights. Commercial television would buy the rights to a fight if they thought they would get the ratings and therefore the commercial dollars. They bid several BILLION dollars on MLB, and NFL. THey could out bid the PPV channels if they wished too.

This is precisely why a boxing channel would work. Most cable networks are appealing to a segment of the market. THe Cartoon network was laughed at at first because no one thorught they would have a big enough audience. BUt they understood the concept of Market Segmentation. You may not get the entire TV audience but you get segment and that segment supports you. Now you have COOKING Channel, COOKING CHANNEL!!!???? Oh yes a boxing channel would be a very viable cable enterprise.

[wildhawke11]

Among the young men in the world today i have no doubt there are many who if could be drawn into the sport and prove to be exciting fighters. Right now though those men are not interested in boxing.So to get there attention you need them to watch boxing, and the way to do that is to show it on normal TV.

OK so now we have more exciting young fighters in the sport.

Only one problem, the managers of the fighters want to make money. So unless we get rid of most of the world title belts and lots of divisions These new exciting fighters will avoid meeting each other, and go for just increasing there win record against the weaker men.The backlash being no exciting fights between these better guys are there to be shown on TV still.

Only way to make them meet is to have them fight in the same division.
Less World Titles belts to be won.
Get rid the Jr this and Jr that divisions
Re-rate the new 10 divisions.

Showing men of very little weight like flyweights or under on TV is not going to attract the young men into the sport.
When the young guys watch the fights they want to imagine in there mind they to could be up there in the ring fighting. So to make that happen in there head you need to show men just like they themselves are, maybe Lightweight, Welterweight, Middleweight and onward fighting.

Don't get me wrong here, there are some great little light fighters but the guys watching don't see themselves as these guys. So don't use the lighter men as the star billing.

My son has Sky TV it cost him another £36 a month more then i pay to watch normal TV. On top of this he then has to pay for PPV. and unless you have something like Sky TV you cant watch any PPV.
A lot of young people i know cant afford anything other then normal TV so even putting exciting fights on PPV is not going to increase the people watching it. Boxing must be put back on normal TV to increase its fan base.

Chaley
I agree 100% about charismatic fighters are needed but they still have to be seen by the public and the best way is normal TV.

[chaleyit]

I would be a fool to argue that point. You can't like what you can't see. Problem is, network tv dropped boxing becaues the ratings were declining. I remember watching many of Larry Holmes fights on commercial TV and even Mike TYson's. Here in the US most households have cabel and it seems the poorer the household the more premium channels they have. Many people chose satilite for about fiftey dollars a month. Cable is well saturated in this counrty and a boxing channel would do very well here. I imagine it would pull at least a million viewers. Cable success can lead to mainstream success. Case in point.

Cartoon networks Powerpuff girls rose to national fame from the cable channel. The result was a major motion picture. It can happen. Some of the highest rated shows are now running exclusively on cable. One of them that hit it big over here is the BBC channel's, The Office. Not to mention a resurgens of Money Pythons Fly Circus.

[Bonedwarf]

Python never went away though really

I'm not a remotely knowledgeable boxing fan. I'm a fan of sims, that's why I like Title Bout.

If boxing could pull in a 4 rating, smaller networks like UPN or TNN... Sorry, Spike would probably air it. WWE pulls in 3-4 rating points per week. That's it. Hell, the second tier wrestling shows pull in less than that. It doesn't need to be a BIG network.

What you need is a network to do for boxing what Speed have done for motor racing in the US and Canada. (He said, with plans to watch the 24 Hours of Daytona this weekend.)

[BCannon4]

Just getting boxing on TV isn’t necessarily going to mean that more people are going to watch it. I’m sure if you look up the number of fights that are telecast in a year you will find that there still is a lot of boxing being aired on various cable channels. The difference is that 30,40,50 years ago there were only about 3 or 4 TV channels available and many other pro sports were not as big and as popular as they are today. For example the first Super Bowl in 1967 had something like 30,000 unsold tickets. Today while there might still be a fair amount of boxing being telecast when you have to compete with 100 to 200 other channels you are less likely to capture as much of the publics attention as when there were only a handful of other viewing options.

I have to agree about Don King as well. While he might be a worthless piece of garbage he isn’t really any better or worse than many other promoters. If he disappeared tomorrow I’m quite sure another lying piece of crap promoter would move in to take his place and rip off the fighters every bit as much as King does now.

[wildhawke11]

BCannon

Then please inform us the best way to go about it. Or is it best to do nothing at all and just let the fight game die. (as we know it)

We cant go out into the streets hit people on the head and force then to watch or take up boxing,

Hey i mean no harm honest i just wish someone could bring the fight game alive again.
Cheers

[chaleyit]

I wonder what it would take for us to start a cable network. We could not only do boxing, but the secondary wrestling, perhaps arena football, and other macho type sports. Call it the CONTACT channel, "we're touchy, feely, but the only warm fuzzies you get here are when your lights are knocked out." Along with current events, we could air classic bouts, hell I am sure most of us have the videos or DVD's. Just think of how many more copies of TB would be sold if exposed on such a network. We could interview the Trunzo brothers. Interview boxers, upstarts and retired champs. Have shows where the combatants sit and discuss each round. Hmmmmmmm
Anyone really interested? I am sure my son has some great contacts to get some quality fights. He knows a lot of promoters.
Maybe I can intice him out of the ring and into the executive office, yeah like that's gonna happen :-)