Lennos Lewis: Deadline March 15

sabotai · 01-26-2004, 10:04 PM

Lewis has until March 15th to sign a rematch with Vitali Klitscho or get stripped of hsi last remaining title.

He basically has 1 of 3 options.

1) Retire.
2) Fight the rematch.
3) Continue fighting but not fight Vitali (and be stripped of his title).

I don't think he can choose #3. He'll definatly be seen as runnign from Vitali. And now since the deadline has been made public, I don't see how he can retire now and not make it look liek he's running from Vitali.

Thoughts on this?

vistaman44 · 01-26-2004, 10:08 PM

It's about darn time they forced him to quit the "reluctant, bored champion" act and fight again. Every now and then the sanctioning bodies show some spine and do the right thing.

Mr Big · 01-28-2004, 02:11 AM

Lewis should not give Vitali a rematch. To do so would be a grave mistake. He should have retired after he KO'd Mike Tyson. Would have cemented his legacy and been remembered as an all-time great. Now that status is in serious jeopardy. It's a lose-lose situation. Klitschkos rock!

wildhawke11 · 01-28-2004, 08:03 AM

The less knowledgeable and casual fan might if Lewis takes another fight and loses, downgrade in there minds his all time status.

But the true historians know better, he has now left his best days far behind him, he is not stupid he knows it, and they know it. Many fighters go on far to long in the fight game. Just think Ali himself, he lost but by most he is still considered the greatest.

If we give them points to Ali, then in all fairness we must judge Lewis by the same standard.

By the way don't think i am a fan of our Lewis because i am far from that but like or not he has avenged his only defeats.

My own feelings are He might try to settle the score just one more time with Vitili. That fight or Roy Jr Jones he knows is the only fights that will give him the big bucks to make it worth his while, because he is already a pretty rich man.

He has nothing to prove, in time no one will care about good or how bad Lewis looked in his last fight, All that is important is he won the fight and that's how history will view it.

vistaman44 · 01-28-2004, 08:37 AM

Danny;
Right on target. He should retire or make the money as he sees fit. The problem is he doesn't need to be a prima donna about it. He's the world champ. He should just say "I'm retiring" or "I'll only fight Jones (Klitschko)" or whatever. I know this is about the money, but he's coming off as spoiled, petulant, etc.

wildhawke11 · 01-28-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vistaman44
Danny;
Right on target. He should retire or make the money as he sees fit. The problem is he doesn't need to be a prima donna about it. He's the world champ. He should just say "I'm retiring" or "I'll only fight Jones (Klitschko)" or whatever. I know this is about the money, but he's coming off as spoiled, petulant, etc.

Mark i agree 100% with you, what he is being allowed to do is unfair to the public we know that.

Problem we have here is Lewis right or wrong is thinking in terms
of his own personal interests. So from his point of view he will stay as world champion as long as he can get away with it.
As the world champion your in demand and can earn lots of money in other ways.

Its not right from our point of view but i wonder if you or i were in the same position and knew our days were numbered if we would be so keen to risk being defeated in a world title fight or would we like he is doing milk the last drop of milk from the cow.

From a boxing point of view Lewis is wrong.
From a personal interest point of view Lewis is doing the right thing.
As i said i think he wants to retire, his enthusiasm is gone now, along with his reflexes, but another 15 million for the right fight is still pretty tempting for any man.

Nice to see you talking boxing Mark

I really aint the cold guy i sometimes i think come across as honest.

thebadguy · 01-28-2004, 04:14 PM

I have a few things to say about old Lennox. He's a bum. All this bullcrap talk about how he should be considered an all time great is absolutely ridiculous!!! this is a "champion" who has made his career by taking out the big name fighters of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, Ruddock and Mercer in particular) after they were well past their primes. also, the majority of ringside viewers, the people watching on PPV, and alot of sportswriters (as well as myself), thought that Lewis clearly lost the rematch with Holyfield and almost got floored on a few occasions that night. Lewis is a BORING fighter to say the least, and he is the type of "champion" who picks his opponents VERY selectively. But OOPS!, he made quite a mistake when he took on Vitali didn't he? now he faces being stripped or giving him a rematch, either way he is screwed because Vitali will pound him into next year, barring any fluke occurences. thats my 3 cents anyway. he is a BUM.

Mr Big · 01-29-2004, 01:37 AM

Amen!

BrocktonBlockBuster · 01-29-2004, 12:38 PM

Lennox Lewis a bum-lol! I think Lennox should have a rematch,ko Klitschko and then retire. Bottom line,last fight he was really trained psyhically and mentally for Kirk Johnson. The Klitschko's are very good. However,I think they move straight forward too much. Also,they carry their arms low and usually get away with it beacause their 6'7". If Lennox boxes and moves around side to side he will wear down Klitschko and eventually set up a monster right hand to the wide open chin of Klitschko. Winner by KO-Lennox Lewis!

thebadguy · 01-29-2004, 02:55 PM

Yes BlockBuster... he is a BUM!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ill agree that Lewis was not properly prepared for Vitali, but that wont make a difference. Besides, that fight will have no bearing one way or the other as far as his place in history. Some of the media, especially the BBC, like to say that Lewis is one of the best HW's ever and it is -as the Brits would say- BOLLOCKS!!! I wont go any further, I said enough in my first post. Evander beat him in the second fight, PERIOD! Lewis got the "sympathy" decision.

GDE · 01-29-2004, 03:56 PM

Just read he has until March 1st to agree to the fight. Purse bid would be the 15th.

BrocktonBlockBuster · 01-30-2004, 01:24 AM

I'll say this Badguy-For sure Lennox Lewis is not the best ever!

Mr Big · 01-30-2004, 02:11 AM

Blockbuster, please keep in mind that, while it is true that Lennox was planning to fight Kirk Johnson when he faced Vitali, Mr. Klitschko had, by the same token, been training for Cedric Boswell. As for Lennox KOing Vitali at this point in his career; please. In their first fight, Klitschko took all Lewis could dish out and kept coming. Watch the second round and it was Lennox who was on the verge of being stopped. Also, do you honestly think that Lewis would have completely destroyed Kirk in two rounds the way Klitschko did? Not on his best day; or Johnsons' worse.

jas80s · 01-30-2004, 04:49 AM

In the shape Johnson was in I have to believe Lennox would have disposed of him pretty quickly too. Johnson did not come to fight period, he was an easy fight for any decent heavy that night. Hell, he was an easy fight for any decent cruiser that night.

Whether one likes Lewis or not, it seems reasonable to say that he performs especially well in big fights, and a second fight with Vitaly would be an enormous fight. I expect he would come up huge in a rematch.........if the fire is still there. Truthfully, I couldn't care less who wins, I just hope the fight happens.

Mr Big · 01-30-2004, 11:36 PM

Lewis doesn't always perform well in big fights. The match with Oliver McCall comes to mind, as well as his first bout with Hasim Rahman. He had lost 4 of the 6 rounds against Vitali Klitschko before the ringside physician bailed him out. I just don't think that Lennox still has the fire that once propelled him to the top of his division.

Who can blame him? He's getting older, has plenty of money, and will probably be remembered as the best heavyweight of his generation. While I wouldn't call myself a Lewis fan, I do respect him as a once great heavyweight champion and would probably place him in my top 15 all-time.

That being said, he should now step aside and let the next crop of pugilists have their chance at making history.

jas80s · 01-31-2004, 02:10 AM

I have to respectfully disagree with one of the comments posted. I do not believe that the first fight with Rahman was a big fight for Lewis. It seems to me that it was pretty widely considered to be a relatively easy defense for Lewis. who was on a pretty serious roll coming into that fight. No disrespect to Rahman, who was always a dangerous opponent (until Ruiz?), but my recollection was that Lewis was a heavy favorite and the result was viewed as a pretty massive upset.

I think of some of the following as big fights for Lewis: Ruddock, Golota, Holyfield (especially their first fight), Tyson, Rahman 2, Tua, Even Bowe in the Olympics, I'll leave out Grant as the public was just wrong to think of that as a big fight..lol. These were all fights where there was serious question as to whether or not Lewis would win and that is my point of reference for a big fight in this particular discussion (yours may differ, and that's cool). In these contests he seemed to be particularly sharp and it is my belief that a second fight with Vitaly would be big enough to motivate Lewis to be at his best. I must sound like the world's biggest shill for Lewis, but this is simply what I have observed in watching his career.

Anyway, the most important thing, and I am sure we would all agree on this, is that it's great to discuss a heavyweight fight not involving Tyson.

sabotai · 01-31-2004, 02:56 AM

The problem with Lewis is that his generation was a generation ago. He was fortunate enough to hit his prime late in his career while the other fighters of his generation hit their prime early (Tyson) or at the conventional age (Bowe, Holyfield). For the last 6 or 7 years, Lewis hit his stride while the other fighters of his generation hit their wall.

Lewis beat a "post-prime" Holyfield (and that second fight was mighty controversial and there should have been a third a fight). He beat a Tyson that I woudl just classified as "End" (to use TF terms). And he has passed up on some really big fights and made questionable decisions.

Like his rematch with McCall. When did he choose to fight him again? When McCall was in good condition to face him? No, right after McCall gets out of rehab. (And I thinking of the right fighter?). Lewis loses to Rahman by knock and then beats Rahman by knock out. Where's the 3rd fight? Where's the trilogy? That fight could have been huge if marketed right...but it never happened. Instead he goes and fights Tyson. And I disagree jas80, I don't think there was a serious question to that fight at all. Everyone pretty much knew that Lewis was going to win. The only X-factor was "what if Tyson lands a clean shot". It wasn't a serious question, just an inprobable circumstance that might have happened.

IMO, Lewis just happened to come along at the right time. I don't consider him a top 15 fighter. He just happened to hit his prime when the rest of his generation were past their prime and now he's at the end of his career just as some serious competition is coming into their own.

I think a second fight with Vitali will motivate Lewis to be at his best, but only at the best he can be right now. I think another shot at the world title will also motivate Vitali to be at his best. IMO, at the very moment, the best Vitali can be right now would beat the best Lewis can be right now.

But in football they say "That's why they play the game", it's the same in boxing. Anything can happen.

thebadguy · 01-31-2004, 04:29 AM

read sabotai's newest post on this thread. that says it ALL. as I was reading that I couldn't help but think that he was reading my mind. Lewis hit his prime late, while the other fighters in his generation hit a "wall" around the same time. the best fighter of his generation? NO. I dont think too many would argue that the best HW of the last 20 years is without a doubt Evander Holyfield.

Is Lewis boring? Extremely. He is almost as boring as Larry Holmes was. The interest in HW boxing really declined when Holmes had the title and the same thing has more or less happened with the title in Lewis' hands. Smart? Yes he is. So smart that he will go down as the champion who refused to fight. Instead, he used his large figure and threw boring jabs all the way to the title and beyond.

His chin? Yes he has only been knocked down twice in his career... but he didn't get up on either occasion Wildhawke. And look who knocked him out... McCall and Rahman! This also goes to show that he doesn't have much of a heart either, which is ONE of the things that made Holyfield great. Maybe bum was a strong word. However, he is not even close to being an all time great as he isn't even the best of his generation.

jas80s · 01-31-2004, 03:42 PM

All fair points, but I do think that he was a victim of timing and unwilling opponents to a much higher degree than he was a contributor to the problem. After all, Tyson gave him money to step aside and Bowe threw a belt in the trash rather than face him. Neither one of them wanted any part of a fight with Lewis, and if Tyson didn't need money so desperately I don't think he would have ever fought him. Evander is Evander and he'll fight anyone, but they met when the fight made sense (for a title). I think it was just fortune (good or bad depending on how you look at it) that Evander was on the downhill side of his career when they did meet. Also, it is my belief that Evander was still just starting to go downhill when they first met, he was still a tremendous fighter at that point. Nonetheless, he never met the other dominant fighters of the 80's and 90's at their best and if one were to say that it leaves a little "Larry Holmes like" feel to his career I wouldn't completely disagree. I just think that it is important to clarify his role in that situation. Also, much like Holmes, I do think he made some pretty solid fighters look awfully pedestrian as well and I think it's important to give him credit for that. If one leaves him off a top 10 list I wouldn't argue at all, but badguy, I was nevertheless pleased to see you soften a little on the "bum" label......I think he has done juuust enough to avoid that moniker.

I also definitely agree that his best may not be enough at this point. No fighter is exempt from the effects of age and he may not have it anymore, at least not enough of it to beat Vitaly. Of course, it's that very question that would make this such a compelling fight.

wildhawke11 · 01-31-2004, 04:05 PM

Lewis a bum, I hardly think that a guy with his record plus the money he has made out of boxing which can give him the lifestyle you and others can only dream about is to use your words a bum.

On the way up it was other fighters who in fact did not want to meet Lewis, that's why he had to take on the best of the up and coming fighters. Also in case you don't know it was Riddock Bowe who was trying to avoid a fight with Lewis although they did meet in the amateurs Lewis stopped R Bowe 2nd round. Of course we all know Roy Jr Jones
himself is very selective who he goes in the ring with, but most regard Jones as a class fighter.

Even Don King who a great many sell there soul to, tried to get Lewis but the guy your calling a bum at least had the guts to tell him to go to hell or words to that affect. Lewis would only have gone with that shark if it was on his terms and the deal was right for the Lewis camp.

Don King said onetime "you don't get what you deserve in life you get what you negotiate" He was right in that respect, in most walks of life that still goes.

As for being a boring fighter you clearly have never been on the other side of the business and are speaking just as an observer. A fighters job is to win fights first and foremost, Each fighter has different tools in his make up. To win a fight, and this is i might remind you is your prime objective. You maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. Lewis has done this very affectedly over most of his carrier you have to agree. I would say that's tells you he is a pretty intelligent fighter.

People say Lewis has a glass chin, i agree its not in the same league as Liston, Foreman Ali etc etc. But its not quite as bad as people make out. Its no worse then Joe Louis had, and Jack Johnson did not have the greatest of chins hence the style he used in his fights.

Now if Lewis has such a bad chin, how come he has been down only 2 times in 14 years of pro boxing, and that includes i think about 18 championship fights.

Marciano 2
Louis - double figures
Ali 4 as a pro 2 or 3 times as an amateur
Holmes 4 i think
Tyson is it 4
Holyfield i think 5 or 6
Forman - 3 or 4 times by Ali, Young and Lyle
Liston ,Frazier

Now why was Lewis the guy they say has a glass chin not knocked down more. Because he is not quite the mug you seem to think he is, he made most of them fight not as they would want to. At 38 years of age and being inactive and far from the prime Lewis, he still managed to take Vitali best punches.

To sum up Lewis is far from the best HW -- P4P but he brings to the table to compensate for a less then great chin enough weapons in his make up. (tremendous strength and power, good jab, fair speed and above all like Gene Tunney very intelligent in boxing terms) Even at his prime he might not have beat the best of the best, but nevertheless he
would have been a very very tough match up for a lot of them.

Your saying Lewis is not an All Time Great, maybe and maybe not, but i think most here would place him in the Top 20 or the very least in the Top 30.

If you cast your mind back in history to the multitude of young men who did battle as a pro fighter in the heavyweight division even being ranked in the Top 50 or so is something to be proud of. I think a fighter who has earned himself the right to be in that Top 50 has the right to a little respect in boxing terms and not to be called by you a BUM.

Right now Roy Jr Jones is thinking very hard are the rewards worth the risk of doing battle with Lewis. He would never have even considered it if Lewis was near his prime. Even now it is going through his mind that although Lewis is an ageing fighter that he could still be out gunned by the old boy.

Have a good day Sir.
Danny.

01-26-2004, 10:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 654	Lennos Lewis: Deadline March 15 Lewis has until March 15th to sign a rematch with Vitali Klitscho or get stripped of hsi last remaining title. He basically has 1 of 3 options. 1) Retire. 2) Fight the rematch. 3) Continue fighting but not fight Vitali (and be stripped of his title). I don't think he can choose #3. He'll definatly be seen as runnign from Vitali. And now since the deadline has been made public, I don't see how he can retire now and not make it look liek he's running from Vitali. Thoughts on this?

01-26-2004, 10:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
vistaman44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Auxvasse, Mo. Posts: 3,143	It's about darn time they forced him to quit the "reluctant, bored champion" act and fight again. Every now and then the sanctioning bodies show some spine and do the right thing. __________________ ---Mark (vistaman44) "What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us." — Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, philosopher and poet (1803-1882) ----------------------------------- Currently operating 1980s JM-HW, 1940s, African, 1980s LW and women's boxing universes

01-28-2004, 02:11 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mr Big All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,235	Lewis should not give Vitali a rematch. To do so would be a grave mistake. He should have retired after he KO'd Mike Tyson. Would have cemented his legacy and been remembered as an all-time great. Now that status is in serious jeopardy. It's a lose-lose situation. Klitschkos rock! __________________ The M.O.B. Isaiah 54:17

01-28-2004, 08:03 AM	#4 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	The less knowledgeable and casual fan might if Lewis takes another fight and loses, downgrade in there minds his all time status. But the true historians know better, he has now left his best days far behind him, he is not stupid he knows it, and they know it. Many fighters go on far to long in the fight game. Just think Ali himself, he lost but by most he is still considered the greatest. If we give them points to Ali, then in all fairness we must judge Lewis by the same standard. By the way don't think i am a fan of our Lewis because i am far from that but like or not he has avenged his only defeats. My own feelings are He might try to settle the score just one more time with Vitili. That fight or Roy Jr Jones he knows is the only fights that will give him the big bucks to make it worth his while, because he is already a pretty rich man. He has nothing to prove, in time no one will care about good or how bad Lewis looked in his last fight, All that is important is he won the fight and that's how history will view it. Last edited by wildhawke11 : 01-28-2004 at 08:20 AM.

01-28-2004, 08:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
vistaman44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Auxvasse, Mo. Posts: 3,143	Danny; Right on target. He should retire or make the money as he sees fit. The problem is he doesn't need to be a prima donna about it. He's the world champ. He should just say "I'm retiring" or "I'll only fight Jones (Klitschko)" or whatever. I know this is about the money, but he's coming off as spoiled, petulant, etc. __________________ ---Mark (vistaman44) "What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us." — Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, philosopher and poet (1803-1882) ----------------------------------- Currently operating 1980s JM-HW, 1940s, African, 1980s LW and women's boxing universes

01-28-2004, 04:14 PM	#7 (permalink)
thebadguy Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ephrata, WA Posts: 429	I have a few things to say about old Lennox. He's a bum. All this bullcrap talk about how he should be considered an all time great is absolutely ridiculous!!! this is a "champion" who has made his career by taking out the big name fighters of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, Ruddock and Mercer in particular) after they were well past their primes. also, the majority of ringside viewers, the people watching on PPV, and alot of sportswriters (as well as myself), thought that Lewis clearly lost the rematch with Holyfield and almost got floored on a few occasions that night. Lewis is a BORING fighter to say the least, and he is the type of "champion" who picks his opponents VERY selectively. But OOPS!, he made quite a mistake when he took on Vitali didn't he? now he faces being stripped or giving him a rematch, either way he is screwed because Vitali will pound him into next year, barring any fluke occurences. thats my 3 cents anyway. he is a BUM. __________________ "You need people like me... you need people like me so you can point your ****ing fingers... and say, thats the badguy!" - Al Pacino (Scarface)

01-29-2004, 01:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
Mr Big All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,235	Amen! __________________ The M.O.B. Isaiah 54:17

01-29-2004, 12:38 PM	#9 (permalink)
BrocktonBlockBuster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 280	Lennox Lewis a bum-lol! I think Lennox should have a rematch,ko Klitschko and then retire. Bottom line,last fight he was really trained psyhically and mentally for Kirk Johnson. The Klitschko's are very good. However,I think they move straight forward too much. Also,they carry their arms low and usually get away with it beacause their 6'7". If Lennox boxes and moves around side to side he will wear down Klitschko and eventually set up a monster right hand to the wide open chin of Klitschko. Winner by KO-Lennox Lewis!

01-29-2004, 02:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
thebadguy Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ephrata, WA Posts: 429	Yes BlockBuster... he is a BUM!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ill agree that Lewis was not properly prepared for Vitali, but that wont make a difference. Besides, that fight will have no bearing one way or the other as far as his place in history. Some of the media, especially the BBC, like to say that Lewis is one of the best HW's ever and it is -as the Brits would say- BOLLOCKS!!! I wont go any further, I said enough in my first post. Evander beat him in the second fight, PERIOD! Lewis got the "sympathy" decision. __________________ "You need people like me... you need people like me so you can point your ****ing fingers... and say, thats the badguy!" - Al Pacino (Scarface)

01-29-2004, 03:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
GDE Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Nancy,KY Posts: 193	Just read he has until March 1st to agree to the fight. Purse bid would be the 15th.

01-30-2004, 01:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
BrocktonBlockBuster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 280	I'll say this Badguy-For sure Lennox Lewis is not the best ever!

01-30-2004, 02:11 AM	#13 (permalink)
Mr Big All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,235	Blockbuster, please keep in mind that, while it is true that Lennox was planning to fight Kirk Johnson when he faced Vitali, Mr. Klitschko had, by the same token, been training for Cedric Boswell. As for Lennox KOing Vitali at this point in his career; please. In their first fight, Klitschko took all Lewis could dish out and kept coming. Watch the second round and it was Lennox who was on the verge of being stopped. Also, do you honestly think that Lewis would have completely destroyed Kirk in two rounds the way Klitschko did? Not on his best day; or Johnsons' worse. __________________ The M.O.B. Isaiah 54:17

01-30-2004, 04:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
jas80s Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 174	In the shape Johnson was in I have to believe Lennox would have disposed of him pretty quickly too. Johnson did not come to fight period, he was an easy fight for any decent heavy that night. Hell, he was an easy fight for any decent cruiser that night. Whether one likes Lewis or not, it seems reasonable to say that he performs especially well in big fights, and a second fight with Vitaly would be an enormous fight. I expect he would come up huge in a rematch.........if the fire is still there. Truthfully, I couldn't care less who wins, I just hope the fight happens.

01-30-2004, 11:36 PM	#15 (permalink)
Mr Big All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,235	Lewis doesn't always perform well in big fights. The match with Oliver McCall comes to mind, as well as his first bout with Hasim Rahman. He had lost 4 of the 6 rounds against Vitali Klitschko before the ringside physician bailed him out. I just don't think that Lennox still has the fire that once propelled him to the top of his division. Who can blame him? He's getting older, has plenty of money, and will probably be remembered as the best heavyweight of his generation. While I wouldn't call myself a Lewis fan, I do respect him as a once great heavyweight champion and would probably place him in my top 15 all-time. That being said, he should now step aside and let the next crop of pugilists have their chance at making history. __________________ The M.O.B. Isaiah 54:17

01-31-2004, 02:10 AM	#16 (permalink)
jas80s Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 174	I have to respectfully disagree with one of the comments posted. I do not believe that the first fight with Rahman was a big fight for Lewis. It seems to me that it was pretty widely considered to be a relatively easy defense for Lewis. who was on a pretty serious roll coming into that fight. No disrespect to Rahman, who was always a dangerous opponent (until Ruiz?), but my recollection was that Lewis was a heavy favorite and the result was viewed as a pretty massive upset. I think of some of the following as big fights for Lewis: Ruddock, Golota, Holyfield (especially their first fight), Tyson, Rahman 2, Tua, Even Bowe in the Olympics, I'll leave out Grant as the public was just wrong to think of that as a big fight..lol. These were all fights where there was serious question as to whether or not Lewis would win and that is my point of reference for a big fight in this particular discussion (yours may differ, and that's cool). In these contests he seemed to be particularly sharp and it is my belief that a second fight with Vitaly would be big enough to motivate Lewis to be at his best. I must sound like the world's biggest shill for Lewis, but this is simply what I have observed in watching his career. Anyway, the most important thing, and I am sure we would all agree on this, is that it's great to discuss a heavyweight fight not involving Tyson.

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01-31-2004, 02:56 AM	#17 (permalink)
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 654	The problem with Lewis is that his generation was a generation ago. He was fortunate enough to hit his prime late in his career while the other fighters of his generation hit their prime early (Tyson) or at the conventional age (Bowe, Holyfield). For the last 6 or 7 years, Lewis hit his stride while the other fighters of his generation hit their wall. Lewis beat a "post-prime" Holyfield (and that second fight was mighty controversial and there should have been a third a fight). He beat a Tyson that I woudl just classified as "End" (to use TF terms). And he has passed up on some really big fights and made questionable decisions. Like his rematch with McCall. When did he choose to fight him again? When McCall was in good condition to face him? No, right after McCall gets out of rehab. (And I thinking of the right fighter?). Lewis loses to Rahman by knock and then beats Rahman by knock out. Where's the 3rd fight? Where's the trilogy? That fight could have been huge if marketed right...but it never happened. Instead he goes and fights Tyson. And I disagree jas80, I don't think there was a serious question to that fight at all. Everyone pretty much knew that Lewis was going to win. The only X-factor was "what if Tyson lands a clean shot". It wasn't a serious question, just an inprobable circumstance that might have happened. IMO, Lewis just happened to come along at the right time. I don't consider him a top 15 fighter. He just happened to hit his prime when the rest of his generation were past their prime and now he's at the end of his career just as some serious competition is coming into their own. I think a second fight with Vitali will motivate Lewis to be at his best, but only at the best he can be right now. I think another shot at the world title will also motivate Vitali to be at his best. IMO, at the very moment, the best Vitali can be right now would beat the best Lewis can be right now. But in football they say "That's why they play the game", it's the same in boxing. Anything can happen.

01-31-2004, 04:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
thebadguy Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ephrata, WA Posts: 429	read sabotai's newest post on this thread. that says it ALL. as I was reading that I couldn't help but think that he was reading my mind. Lewis hit his prime late, while the other fighters in his generation hit a "wall" around the same time. the best fighter of his generation? NO. I dont think too many would argue that the best HW of the last 20 years is without a doubt Evander Holyfield. Is Lewis boring? Extremely. He is almost as boring as Larry Holmes was. The interest in HW boxing really declined when Holmes had the title and the same thing has more or less happened with the title in Lewis' hands. Smart? Yes he is. So smart that he will go down as the champion who refused to fight. Instead, he used his large figure and threw boring jabs all the way to the title and beyond. His chin? Yes he has only been knocked down twice in his career... but he didn't get up on either occasion Wildhawke. And look who knocked him out... McCall and Rahman! This also goes to show that he doesn't have much of a heart either, which is ONE of the things that made Holyfield great. Maybe bum was a strong word. However, he is not even close to being an all time great as he isn't even the best of his generation. __________________ "You need people like me... you need people like me so you can point your ***ing fingers... and say, thats the badguy!" - Al Pacino (Scarface) Last edited by thebadguy : 01-31-2004 at 04:31 AM.*

01-31-2004, 03:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
jas80s Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 174	All fair points, but I do think that he was a victim of timing and unwilling opponents to a much higher degree than he was a contributor to the problem. After all, Tyson gave him money to step aside and Bowe threw a belt in the trash rather than face him. Neither one of them wanted any part of a fight with Lewis, and if Tyson didn't need money so desperately I don't think he would have ever fought him. Evander is Evander and he'll fight anyone, but they met when the fight made sense (for a title). I think it was just fortune (good or bad depending on how you look at it) that Evander was on the downhill side of his career when they did meet. Also, it is my belief that Evander was still just starting to go downhill when they first met, he was still a tremendous fighter at that point. Nonetheless, he never met the other dominant fighters of the 80's and 90's at their best and if one were to say that it leaves a little "Larry Holmes like" feel to his career I wouldn't completely disagree. I just think that it is important to clarify his role in that situation. Also, much like Holmes, I do think he made some pretty solid fighters look awfully pedestrian as well and I think it's important to give him credit for that. If one leaves him off a top 10 list I wouldn't argue at all, but badguy, I was nevertheless pleased to see you soften a little on the "bum" label......I think he has done juuust enough to avoid that moniker. I also definitely agree that his best may not be enough at this point. No fighter is exempt from the effects of age and he may not have it anymore, at least not enough of it to beat Vitaly. Of course, it's that very question that would make this such a compelling fight.

01-31-2004, 04:05 PM	#20 (permalink)
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,834	Lewis a bum, I hardly think that a guy with his record plus the money he has made out of boxing which can give him the lifestyle you and others can only dream about is to use your words a bum. On the way up it was other fighters who in fact did not want to meet Lewis, that's why he had to take on the best of the up and coming fighters. Also in case you don't know it was Riddock Bowe who was trying to avoid a fight with Lewis although they did meet in the amateurs Lewis stopped R Bowe 2nd round. Of course we all know Roy Jr Jones himself is very selective who he goes in the ring with, but most regard Jones as a class fighter. Even Don King who a great many sell there soul to, tried to get Lewis but the guy your calling a bum at least had the guts to tell him to go to hell or words to that affect. Lewis would only have gone with that shark if it was on his terms and the deal was right for the Lewis camp. Don King said onetime "you don't get what you deserve in life you get what you negotiate" He was right in that respect, in most walks of life that still goes. As for being a boring fighter you clearly have never been on the other side of the business and are speaking just as an observer. A fighters job is to win fights first and foremost, Each fighter has different tools in his make up. To win a fight, and this is i might remind you is your prime objective. You maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. Lewis has done this very affectedly over most of his carrier you have to agree. I would say that's tells you he is a pretty intelligent fighter. People say Lewis has a glass chin, i agree its not in the same league as Liston, Foreman Ali etc etc. But its not quite as bad as people make out. Its no worse then Joe Louis had, and Jack Johnson did not have the greatest of chins hence the style he used in his fights. Now if Lewis has such a bad chin, how come he has been down only 2 times in 14 years of pro boxing, and that includes i think about 18 championship fights. Marciano 2 Louis - double figures Ali 4 as a pro 2 or 3 times as an amateur Holmes 4 i think Tyson is it 4 Holyfield i think 5 or 6 Forman - 3 or 4 times by Ali, Young and Lyle Liston ,Frazier Now why was Lewis the guy they say has a glass chin not knocked down more. Because he is not quite the mug you seem to think he is, he made most of them fight not as they would want to. At 38 years of age and being inactive and far from the prime Lewis, he still managed to take Vitali best punches. To sum up Lewis is far from the best HW -- P4P but he brings to the table to compensate for a less then great chin enough weapons in his make up. (tremendous strength and power, good jab, fair speed and above all like Gene Tunney very intelligent in boxing terms) Even at his prime he might not have beat the best of the best, but nevertheless he would have been a very very tough match up for a lot of them. Your saying Lewis is not an All Time Great, maybe and maybe not, but i think most here would place him in the Top 20 or the very least in the Top 30. If you cast your mind back in history to the multitude of young men who did battle as a pro fighter in the heavyweight division even being ranked in the Top 50 or so is something to be proud of. I think a fighter who has earned himself the right to be in that Top 50 has the right to a little respect in boxing terms and not to be called by you a BUM. Right now Roy Jr Jones is thinking very hard are the rewards worth the risk of doing battle with Lewis. He would never have even considered it if Lewis was near his prime. Even now it is going through his mind that although Lewis is an ageing fighter that he could still be out gunned by the old boy. Have a good day Sir. Danny.