Moving up a weight class

[David Myers]

Gentlemen,

In your replays, how do you adjust the ratings for fighters who move up a weight class and stay there?

In my replay, for example, Benny Leonard made up his mind to fight Mickey Walker for the welterweight title instead of retiring in 1924. At Madison Square Garden, Leonard won a unanimous decision in fifteen rounds.

Given the way that TBCB is set up, Leonard won't be displayed as the welterweight champ--and won't even be ranked among the welterweight contenders--unless I move him up a weight class. And though he was a great fighter, I doubt that Leonard would have been just as good a welter as a lightweight.

What I did was (1) to copy the lightweight Benny Leonard "without stats" (so that I'd have the original ratings) and then (2) to change the weight classification on the Leonard-with-stats.

The question is this. Which categories should be adjusted to account for Leonard's fighting in the heavier division? And how much?

In a message to the TBCB Ratings list, Jaret Morgan suggested the following categories be adjusted: control factors, punching accuracy, hitting power, defense, and counterpunching.

Endurance too, it strikes me. Wouldn't carrying the additional pounds tire any boxer? And what about recovery? Would heavier boxers, hitting with more power, affect the ability of a fighter like Leonard to recover from their blows?

All opinions--and advice--are welcome. Thanks in advance!

[Rasmuth]

This is such a hard area to figure...even Jim somewhere stated that some fighters suffer a "hit" to their skills when they move up in class but some fighters don't miss a beat and still seem to be the same. Some fighters hit hard and when they move up they aren't as effective...yet some still pull it off with no apparent decline.

It almost seems to me that you need to randomly apply this to fighters. TBCB has all boxers suffer when they move up in class. Maybe you need to work out a system where 10, 15 or 20% of fighters who move up...stay the same...no apparent skill loss.

Anybody else have ideas here?

[djday45]

This is a really complex question which does not seem to have any straight foward or easy answers.
My own gut feeling is that it must be done on a case by case basis depending if the fighter moved
around the divisions in reality.
Leonard did not but stayed at lightweight for the vast majority of his career so must have been a
"natural" lightweight which in my mind means his rating would suffer if he made a jump to welter
and above.

As a matter of course when moving a fighter up in weight when you have no historical basis on how
they performed I would look st the following.

For each of the ORIGINAL weight classes they move up I would

1. Look at reducing CF by 1 or even 2 points in some cases.
2. Look at HP. inmost cases it will reduce by i to 2 points, a smaller number of fighters will
remain the same some may even increase in HP by a point. Lastly a small fraction will be reduced
in HP even more than 2.
3. KD, KO, REC - as a matter of course I would increase these a point, a few fighters maybe more.
Some guys would have their KO rating unchanged especially if they have a rep as having great chins
anyway.
4. AP will usually stay the same but maybe increase by a point in some cases.
5. KI and AGG should remain unchanged.
6. END will sometimes go down a point but could also stay the same.
7. DEF I would keep the same in most cases.
8. COND I would make worse by one if the fighter had an original rating of 1,2 or 3. this
represents him being slightly over his natural weight class and the chances of him being out of
condition increase (Duran comes to mind) Original COND ratings of 4+ should be left alone as they
represent more personality or career traits which should be kept.
9. INT, Strategies and ratings such on ropes or fast starter should be left alone.
10. punch values should be left alone.
11. PL/CP either left alone or reduced by 2 for each depending on if you feel the fighter would
have lost some speed or accuracy.

These ammendments should be made culmalative if you are going up more than one weight class say
Lightweight to Light Heavy for example.

But again I DO NOT use this system for fighters who historically fought in many classes for these
guys so set of guidelines can be used, instead you must see how they performed in the new class
and ammend their ratings accordingly. Guys like Fitzsimmons, Greb, Stribling, Langford, Lewis,
Duran, Hearns, Walker, O'Brien, Tunney, Armstrong, Canzoneri, Ross, Robinson must be rated
historically.

As a side note I am currently slowly (as a break now and again from rating new fighters) whipping
the database into shape for my Day council replay.
I am currently on "P" and have done the following

1. Added nationalities to fighters who were missing one.
2. Ammended career years for fighters who were blank, just plain wrong, and lastly increased to a
minimum of 10 years the many fighters who only fought for a limited time either due to an early
death, injury or quitting after only a few years. I have done this to increase the depth of the
fighter pool in all eras and also as a what if?
3. Put all multiple division fighters into the correct division in the correct time frame.
So for example Langford starts as a welter then middle and quickly goes to light heavy and Heavy
in the correct historical time in which he did in real life. This has meant having many different
versions of some fighters such as Stribling (5) Ted kId Lewis (4) Walker (4) Fitzsimmons (3) Duran
(3) etc, etc.
4. I have eliminated all junior and super divisions and kept only the original 8 classes. All
junior fighters have been placed into the most appropriate division hostorically and there rating
tweaked to take into account the extra/less weight.
5. Have just started to put the historical trainers against each fighter. If a fighter was not
known to have a specific famous trainer I am using his listed Manager at BOXREC and creating him
as a cornerman in the game.
6. I am adding all the new fighters people are rating here and at cornerwork into the database.

I have called this database "Master Research" and when i am finished (as I said at P at the
moment) anyone who wants it let me know and i will send the file over.

Rgds
Dean

[dempsonny]

Dean has made an excellent knowledgeable assessment of an answer. He obviously understands the mechanics of the game. It is also true that guys may move up and do better or worse. A guy may add muscle and just be filling out therefore his END, HP, KOR may be getting better. The opposite may also occur that a fighter is not training hard and therefore adding weight, so categories may be getting worse. Pretty much what most people say is true you have to look at what fighters did historically and if their opposition changed. You may have a welterweight do poorly but he was facing top 10 contenders. He moves to middleweight but doesn't face a top 20 MW. He may look like he's getting better moving up but that may not be true. Basically unless you really feel that you can evaluate the change, let the game do it.

Gus

[David Myers]

Gus,

What does it mean to "let the game do it"?

[wildhawke11]

David
What Gus is saying is, if you fight lets say a lightweight against a Welterweight in the game
The program will then adjust the Lightweights ratings automatically for that fight, probably taking some of the lightweights hitting power away and also making him a little easier to knock down.

For example as a LW the guy has a Hit Power of 7 and a KD of 2
As a WW it might adjust that to Hit Power 5 KD 3

[mking55]

I asked this question 3 weeks ago in an earlier thread and received this response from Jim. You may want to check out his comments.

Copying a fighter to a higher weight class

[wildhawke11]

Cheers Mking
I agree with Jim best way is to do it yourself but Jims guide is pretty good.

[David Myers]

Wildhawke,

Yes, I understand that. My question had to do with moving a lightweight up into the welterweight class.

I guess you could keep switching his weight classification back and forth--keeping him a lightweight for the fights, making him a welterweight for the rankings. But if you did that, you'd throw off the rankings. And what's more, the lightweight would not be displayed as the welterweight champ. In the game, if a lightweight beats a welterweight the title does not change hands. (In my replay, Benny Leonard defeated Mickey Walker while fighting as a lightweight.)

Btw, Leonard did in actuality fight for the welterweight crown. On June 26, 1922, at the Velodrome in the Bronx, he floored welterweight champ Jack Britton in the 13th round; then punched Britton while he was down. The referee promptly disqualified Leonard. Otherwise he might, just as in my replay, have worn the welterweight belt over the lightweight one.

Thanks, Mking, for directing us to Jim Trunzo's reply, which I had carelessly overlooked when it first appeared. If you ask me, though, Dean's more comprehensive guide is handier--more convenient, especially for those of us who are engaged in replays. Thanks, Dean!