Biggest Rating Mismatch Fight (so far)

mking55 · 02-13-2004, 12:44 AM

In my continuing efforts to find fights of interest I have found one.

'Tiger' Ted Lowry vs. Terrance 'KO' Lewis. These are 2 fighters I had never heard of until tonight.

What makes this match interesting is their ratings. Lowry has an overall rating of '6' and Lewis has an overall rating of '1'.

The results of 500 fights between these 2 gentlemen is:
Lewis wins 260
Lowry wins 179
Draws are 61

I am not disputing either of these fighters ratings. (Although I suspect that in a tournament of 6's Lowry would be at or near the bottom).

The only reason I mention these 2 is that it is the largest rating differential I could find where the lower fighter wins the majority of fights over the higher fighter. I find it interesting and further evidence that I shouldn't pay too much attention to the overall rating.

Kevin · 02-13-2004, 08:53 AM

I think you've drawn the correct conclusion. I ignore the overall rating entirely. I go more by the game generated rankings, although they are also imperfect. Here's hoping the next version uses a weighted average using a longer number of fights, but weighting the most recent quite heavily.

Rasmuth · 02-13-2004, 10:57 AM

Kinda like real life...rankings and records are so imperfect...you don't know how it will be until two fighters step in the ring...and even then who knows...is one fighter undertrained...overtrained...is his mind preoccupied elsewhere...etc....etc...the beauty of boxing I guess.

LeeSkye · 02-13-2004, 11:31 AM

mking55

Is there some quality of the lower fighter that would negate the supposed superiority of the guy rated 6?

I have seen a few instances where a couple of fighters with higher ratings [but weak chins] seemed to always win until they faced a guy with a good power shot rating. They were winning the fight until one good shot put them on queer street and everything goes downhill from there! Of course I'm not talking about over a 100 bouts with two guys but there seemed to be a few instances where it was either happening -or it was just my imagination working overtime!

Now the ratings were not as far apart as the one you are talking about so it does seem a bit strange.

But in real life some guys always seem to come up against another fighter who just seems to have their number -can it be [or is it] duplicated somewhat in TBCB? You have raised an interesting thought.

vistaman44 · 02-13-2004, 12:35 PM

Martin;
I don't know anything about Lewis, but Lowry was one of those guys who fought everybody, and at various stages in his career would beat guys ranked 8-9 by the game and lose to 1-2s. He was a good name opponent for the 1940s, and pulled off some surprises. He fought heavies and light-heavies, intermixed.

I can't speak for the Trunzos, but I assume Lowry's one of those guys who overall has a higher-than-you'd-think rating based on overall career, and the stats are a little high so he has a chance to beat some guys he actually did, wouldn't if you placed him overall 4, which seems a more likely standing for him. Just my two cents ... and I think you're right about the overall. Use it as a very general guide only.

BrocktonBlockBuster · 02-14-2004, 04:37 AM

Hey King,Ted Lowry twice went the 10 round distance with Rocky Marciano. Just staying in the ring with Rocky afew rounds was no easy task! ! I wish I knew more about his fighting style?

Cap · 02-14-2004, 11:04 AM

Martin, I'm assuming you simmed those hundred? Now try matching them for ten rounds and watch what happens. I lean towards Lowry coming out on top.

Cap

mking55 · 02-14-2004, 02:20 PM

Cap,

Yes, I simmed those 500. When I sim that many I am looking at what the average result is. If I only sim 1 fight and Lowry comes out on top, or Lewis comes out on top, what does it matter? Like the old football saying, "On any given Sunday".

A single match is great for replays and universes. A single match is no good in trying to determine who would most likely win. I have had a lot of times where I have simmed 100 fights between fighter A and fighter B and fighter A wins 90% of the time. However, fighter B wins the 1st fight.

I love this game. So many options, so much to do, so much to study.

Cap · 02-14-2004, 05:51 PM

Five fights should be a good sample. Try watching these two fight five times all the way through, no simming allowed. Just curious.

Cap

mking55 · 02-14-2004, 08:17 PM

Okay Cap. I bit. What was your point?

I fought them 5 times. 10 round fights. Full fight sim, not quick sim. Here are the results:

Fight 1: Lewis by UD
Fight 2: Lewis by MD
Fight 3: Draw
Fight 4: Lowry by MD
Fight 5: Lewis by KO in round 5.

So really, what were you after? Why did you expect a different result than with a quick sim?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Cap · 02-15-2004, 12:44 AM

I have found that some fighters seem to do better in actual fights as opposed to quick sims. No idea why. This Lowry was from the 40s and 50s right? This Terrence Lewis. Isn't he a modern fighter, possibly still active? Can't recall ever seeing him fight. Maybe something there.

Cap

mking55 · 02-15-2004, 01:05 AM

I thought that might be what you were getting at. In theory, it shoudn't matter, but I've seen stranger things happen. It's not something I've looked for.

What kind of mass sim results do you see that make you want to test it out on an individual fight situation?

maxx · 02-15-2004, 01:26 AM

You know, a while back I had the same feeling that there was a difference b/w the results of a mass sim versus the individual sim. I ended up testing it out on 250 fights each and, ultimately, the averages were very close. I think the feeling of a difference is caused by the fact that you're seeing such a small snapshot when you view just a few individual fights that it doesn't take much for the results to appear skewed.

As to Terrence Lewis, he has shown up quite a few times on ESPN and FOX. Basically a journeyman fighter who usually loses when he steps up to B competition or above, but he's got a good punch that can keep him in fights. A few years ago he had a great fight against Robert Davis on ESPN2's Tuesday night fight series. If I remember correctly, it was either fight of the year or a runner up on ESPN. The later rematch was dull, but the first one was a corker.

BrocktonBlockBuster · 02-15-2004, 03:12 AM

For whatever reason,active fighters seem to be better overall than retired fighters-IMOP? Isn't Lewis an active fighter? Also,styles mean ALOT and have to be taken into consideration. Finally,maybe their ratings just need to be adjusted? Consider rating 3,000 fighters in many different categories? Your bound to be off a little here and there.

vyshka · 02-16-2004, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cap
I have found that some fighters seem to do better in actual fights as opposed to quick sims. No idea why. This Lowry was from the 40s and 50s right? This Terrence Lewis. Isn't he a modern fighter, possibly still active? Can't recall ever seeing him fight. Maybe something there.

Cap

That is probably just random chance that it turned
out that way. What I mean is I am fairly certain that the engine
generating the interactive bout results and the one that
generates the bouts in the scheduler are the exact same code.

mking55 · 02-16-2004, 10:43 AM

I tend to agree with Vyshka. I have had the feeling that games sim differently whether you are mass simming or playing it out. This is not just with this game but with OOTP and FOF to name two.

So, I figured it is a mind trick that I don't understand. It is weird how a lot of us seem to get that perception. It similar to where it always seems to take less time to get home than to go somewhere even if it is the exact same amount of time.

Or, does it really take less time and all games sim different whether you play it out or mass sim? What if they are eating my brain?

dempsonny · 02-16-2004, 12:28 PM

Eliminate the names of the fighters. You'll be looking at 2 sets of numbers with endless possibilities.
Rate the fighters the way you think they should have been in their prime. For example; I'm comfortable with the following HP's;
Ali 7, Shavers 12, Foreman 13, Hagler 9, Hearns 10, Tunney 6, Fletcher 8, Baret 8 etc. Odd results will happen, just go with it. What fun would it be if you fought fighters and the exact same result as real life came up. You wouldn't have an alternate universe. If a game of let's say horse racing gave you all the Kentucky Derby's and the same results played out you would quickly get bored of the game.
So don't over adjust your fighters because results are not coming out like they did in real life. If Frazier KO's Foreman will you reduce his hitting power or make Foremans chin better. You may do that, then he goes and KO's Ali, what do you do then?

Dempsonny

02-13-2004, 12:44 AM	#1 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	Biggest Rating Mismatch Fight (so far) In my continuing efforts to find fights of interest I have found one. 'Tiger' Ted Lowry vs. Terrance 'KO' Lewis. These are 2 fighters I had never heard of until tonight. What makes this match interesting is their ratings. Lowry has an overall rating of '6' and Lewis has an overall rating of '1'. The results of 500 fights between these 2 gentlemen is: Lewis wins 260 Lowry wins 179 Draws are 61 I am not disputing either of these fighters ratings. (Although I suspect that in a tournament of 6's Lowry would be at or near the bottom). The only reason I mention these 2 is that it is the largest rating differential I could find where the lower fighter wins the majority of fights over the higher fighter. I find it interesting and further evidence that I shouldn't pay too much attention to the overall rating.

02-13-2004, 08:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kevin Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 467	I think you've drawn the correct conclusion. I ignore the overall rating entirely. I go more by the game generated rankings, although they are also imperfect. Here's hoping the next version uses a weighted average using a longer number of fights, but weighting the most recent quite heavily. __________________ It seems more like today than it did all day yesterday.

02-13-2004, 10:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,214	Kinda like real life...rankings and records are so imperfect...you don't know how it will be until two fighters step in the ring...and even then who knows...is one fighter undertrained...overtrained...is his mind preoccupied elsewhere...etc....etc...the beauty of boxing I guess. __________________ http://indiemusicworks.com/forum/artists/members/50/ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=250426

02-13-2004, 12:35 PM	#5 (permalink)
vistaman44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Auxvasse, Mo. Posts: 3,143	Just a theory ... Martin; I don't know anything about Lewis, but Lowry was one of those guys who fought everybody, and at various stages in his career would beat guys ranked 8-9 by the game and lose to 1-2s. He was a good name opponent for the 1940s, and pulled off some surprises. He fought heavies and light-heavies, intermixed. I can't speak for the Trunzos, but I assume Lowry's one of those guys who overall has a higher-than-you'd-think rating based on overall career, and the stats are a little high so he has a chance to beat some guys he actually did, wouldn't if you placed him overall 4, which seems a more likely standing for him. Just my two cents ... and I think you're right about the overall. Use it as a very general guide only. __________________ ---Mark (vistaman44) "What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us." — Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, philosopher and poet (1803-1882) ----------------------------------- Currently operating 1980s JM-HW, 1940s, African, 1980s LW and women's boxing universes Last edited by vistaman44 : 02-13-2004 at 12:40 PM.

02-14-2004, 11:04 AM	#7 (permalink)
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 4,004	Martin, I'm assuming you simmed those hundred? Now try matching them for ten rounds and watch what happens. I lean towards Lowry coming out on top. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

02-13-2004, 11:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
LeeSkye All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Igloo Posts: 1,274	mking55 Is there some quality of the lower fighter that would negate the supposed superiority of the guy rated 6? I have seen a few instances where a couple of fighters with higher ratings [but weak chins] seemed to always win until they faced a guy with a good power shot rating. They were winning the fight until one good shot put them on queer street and everything goes downhill from there! Of course I'm not talking about over a 100 bouts with two guys but there seemed to be a few instances where it was either happening -or it was just my imagination working overtime! Now the ratings were not as far apart as the one you are talking about so it does seem a bit strange. But in real life some guys always seem to come up against another fighter who just seems to have their number -can it be [or is it] duplicated somewhat in TBCB? You have raised an interesting thought.

02-14-2004, 04:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
BrocktonBlockBuster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 280	Hey King,Ted Lowry twice went the 10 round distance with Rocky Marciano. Just staying in the ring with Rocky afew rounds was no easy task! ! I wish I knew more about his fighting style?

02-14-2004, 02:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	Cap, Yes, I simmed those 500. When I sim that many I am looking at what the average result is. If I only sim 1 fight and Lowry comes out on top, or Lewis comes out on top, what does it matter? Like the old football saying, "On any given Sunday". A single match is great for replays and universes. A single match is no good in trying to determine who would most likely win. I have had a lot of times where I have simmed 100 fights between fighter A and fighter B and fighter A wins 90% of the time. However, fighter B wins the 1st fight. I love this game. So many options, so much to do, so much to study.

02-14-2004, 05:51 PM	#9 (permalink)
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 4,004	Five fights should be a good sample. Try watching these two fight five times all the way through, no simming allowed. Just curious. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

02-14-2004, 08:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	Okay Cap. I bit. What was your point? I fought them 5 times. 10 round fights. Full fight sim, not quick sim. Here are the results: Fight 1: Lewis by UD Fight 2: Lewis by MD Fight 3: Draw Fight 4: Lowry by MD Fight 5: Lewis by KO in round 5. So really, what were you after? Why did you expect a different result than with a quick sim? Inquiring minds want to know.

02-15-2004, 12:44 AM	#11 (permalink)
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 4,004	I have found that some fighters seem to do better in actual fights as opposed to quick sims. No idea why. This Lowry was from the 40s and 50s right? This Terrence Lewis. Isn't he a modern fighter, possibly still active? Can't recall ever seeing him fight. Maybe something there. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

02-15-2004, 01:05 AM	#12 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	I thought that might be what you were getting at. In theory, it shoudn't matter, but I've seen stranger things happen. It's not something I've looked for. What kind of mass sim results do you see that make you want to test it out on an individual fight situation?

02-15-2004, 01:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
maxx All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 711	You know, a while back I had the same feeling that there was a difference b/w the results of a mass sim versus the individual sim. I ended up testing it out on 250 fights each and, ultimately, the averages were very close. I think the feeling of a difference is caused by the fact that you're seeing such a small snapshot when you view just a few individual fights that it doesn't take much for the results to appear skewed. As to Terrence Lewis, he has shown up quite a few times on ESPN and FOX. Basically a journeyman fighter who usually loses when he steps up to B competition or above, but he's got a good punch that can keep him in fights. A few years ago he had a great fight against Robert Davis on ESPN2's Tuesday night fight series. If I remember correctly, it was either fight of the year or a runner up on ESPN. The later rematch was dull, but the first one was a corker.

02-15-2004, 03:12 AM	#14 (permalink)
BrocktonBlockBuster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 280	For whatever reason,active fighters seem to be better overall than retired fighters-IMOP? Isn't Lewis an active fighter? Also,styles mean ALOT and have to be taken into consideration. Finally,maybe their ratings just need to be adjusted? Consider rating 3,000 fighters in many different categories? Your bound to be off a little here and there.

02-16-2004, 10:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	I tend to agree with Vyshka. I have had the feeling that games sim differently whether you are mass simming or playing it out. This is not just with this game but with OOTP and FOF to name two. So, I figured it is a mind trick that I don't understand. It is weird how a lot of us seem to get that perception. It similar to where it always seems to take less time to get home than to go somewhere even if it is the exact same amount of time. Or, does it really take less time and all games sim different whether you play it out or mass sim? What if they are eating my brain?

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02-16-2004, 12:28 PM	#17 (permalink)
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 321	Eliminate the names of the fighters. You'll be looking at 2 sets of numbers with endless possibilities. Rate the fighters the way you think they should have been in their prime. For example; I'm comfortable with the following HP's; Ali 7, Shavers 12, Foreman 13, Hagler 9, Hearns 10, Tunney 6, Fletcher 8, Baret 8 etc. Odd results will happen, just go with it. What fun would it be if you fought fighters and the exact same result as real life came up. You wouldn't have an alternate universe. If a game of let's say horse racing gave you all the Kentucky Derby's and the same results played out you would quickly get bored of the game. So don't over adjust your fighters because results are not coming out like they did in real life. If Frazier KO's Foreman will you reduce his hitting power or make Foremans chin better. You may do that, then he goes and KO's Ali, what do you do then? Dempsonny __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.