Enhancement versus Patch

mking55 · 03-16-2004, 03:51 PM

I wanted to make this it's own thread because I don't want what I have to say to get lost amongst the posts.

A "patch" is some software that FIXES something that does not work as designed, or causes problems with the software product.

An "enhancement" is something that is added on to the product to add a new feature.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

I am a very critical person and love a good argument, but frankly I have no argument with the TBCB people. They have produced an excellent product almost right out of the box. They have 'patched' the bugs. I am satisified.

Could the product be better? Of course. You can look at anything and say it could be better. Do I feel I am 'owed' anything by the producers of TBCB? No, they don't owe me anything. As far as I am concerned they have met their commitment to me as a consumer. And, they have met that commitment to me far better and quicker than any other sports sim I have purchased.

I am confident that if someone discovers a 'bug' in the game, it will be fixed almost immediately. Other than that, they do not have to produce any of what are commonly and incorrectly called 'patches'.

If they choose to release enhancements to this product, I will take them and be happy to have them. If they don't, it doesn't matter.

I think people should keep making suggestions because even if it doesn't appear as an ENHANCEMENT in this version of the game, it could very well appear in the next version (role-playing).

I just wanted to make clear the difference between a patch and an enhancement. The sports sims developers I have seen would be well advised to start calling their additional releases to a product what they are. If a patch is required, then they owe me and I am sure they will deliver. An enhancement is rarely, if ever, required, and if they deliver one then it's a bonus to me.

guitarman · 03-16-2004, 04:34 PM

Good point! I will be disappointed if there are no other enhancements to this version but I do feel I have got more than my money's worth already. From some of the posts from Andreas it does seem like there will be at least a few more enhancements to this version before they move completely on to a future version.

crusadecat · 03-16-2004, 06:19 PM

Yes I agree I plan to keep on throwing out ideas and concepts because I feel that this is a forum for such a thing. But like you said I don't feel like we are owed anything more that what we have now, Which speaking for myself here delivers hours of enjoyment after a hard day of work

vistaman44 · 03-16-2004, 07:02 PM

Can't disagree with any of this. Frustrating, but thanks for the perspective, guys.

Lee · 03-16-2004, 10:48 PM

Well put

JohnnyBench · 03-17-2004, 07:42 AM

I agree 100% MKING,

The only thing that I would add is that there is also a gray area that seperates an enhancement from a patch. Often times a product, while it is very good and has areas that are not "broke" and in need of "fixing." They often are delivered to us with areas that are not user friendly.

This game, while being the greatest ever of it's kind, has a couple of those areas.
Unable to edit Histories
Unable to print
Lack of title histories
few others mentioned..

Some would say that these are not just enhancements, but oversights.

I know, it's a close call for some and again I am not trying to muddy the water, but these gray areas are controversial and important to some.

I agree 100% that we are not owed anything, but if we are honest, we expect certain things when the name OOTP DEVELOPMENTS is attached to something.

Yes, we are spoiled and we like it.

So, now I guess I'll just shut up and play the game!

mking55 · 03-17-2004, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnnyBench
I agree 100% that we are not owed anything, but if we are honest, we expect certain things when the name OOTP DEVELOPMENTS is attached to something.

An interesting comment. I totally disagree but respect your right to think that way.

Without going into details, the ootp baseball game (which I have bought every year since ootp2), is a huge disappointment in my mind. I have given up on it ever evolving to excellence because I think that they just don't care enough about the details. The makers are swayed by the ridiculous fanbase they have on the boards and after hearing people keep saying to the gamemaker, "You are godlike and the game is the greatest", the developer stops looking at what is truly needed. Most good and decent suggestions are shouted down and get lost in the shuffle. There have been promises made over the years of major things (i.e. financial model) that were going to be in the next release, or a coming patch, and they don't appear. Now I see that the reason that some things don't happen is "it's too hard to do". (That's the current excuse for the lousy schedule maker). That really makes me as a consumer feel good that something basic can't be made to work right because "it's too hard".

The name OOTP means nothing to me. I looked at the boxing product as a completely different entity from OOTP. I am glad I did. The boxing game is head and shoulders above what the baseball game is. The two main reasons for that is the attention to detail that they show, and the people here (boxing) in charge, listen to us (buyers) and respond, and when a suggestion is made here, no one pops up to say you're an idiot. (Okay, maybe 1 or 2 people do that).

Because of what people have written on these boards, they have tweaked the engine and some fighters. The most important thing in this game is the engine and they treat it as such. If it can't simulate a fight properly, then it's a failure. In the baseball game, if it can't simulate a baseball game properly, it seems that no one who matters really gives a damn because so many chant "Game is great".

I am so glad that TBCB is nothing like OOTP baseball. If it was, I wouldn't be playing it today.

Sorry, I am off topic. Your comment sent me off the deep end again and I need to remember to take my meds.

sixto · 03-17-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mking55
I have given up on it ever evolving to excellence because I think that they just don't care enough about the details. The makers are swayed by the ridiculous fanbase they have on the boards and after hearing people keep saying to the gamemaker, "You are godlike and the game is the greatest", the developer stops looking at what is truly needed.

I humbly submit that until TBCB enters its "franchise mode" years, this comparison is unfair. That said, mking, though we have had our disagreements, I think OOTP is the poorer for your decision to remove yourself from the discussion.

Andreas Raht · 03-17-2004, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnnyBench
I agree 100% MKING,

The only thing that I would add is that there is also a gray area that seperates an enhancement from a patch. Often times a product, while it is very good and has areas that are not "broke" and in need of "fixing." They often are delivered to us with areas that are not user friendly.

This game, while being the greatest ever of it's kind, has a couple of those areas.
Unable to edit Histories
Unable to print
Lack of title histories
few others mentioned..

Some would say that these are not just enhancements, but oversights.

I know, it's a close call for some and again I am not trying to muddy the water, but these gray areas are controversial and important to some.

I agree 100% that we are not owed anything, but if we are honest, we expect certain things when the name OOTP DEVELOPMENTS is attached to something.

Yes, we are spoiled and we like it.

So, now I guess I'll just shut up and play the game!

I guess I can clear the "gray area" up a little bit: Some of your examples are just functions which existed in TF2001 but are not yet completed in TB, like for example editing of history records. The TB development team's goal has always been - and still is - to bring all the features into TB that have been in TF2001, but better and some more of course. So this feature is something which will be added in a patch. Also more reports to print - but as xml files as it is now with the fighter ratings report.

Well, but we will need some enhancements for the next full version of course... so we will not add everything in a patch now. Even if the developers would like to do it, the merchants would say "No"

Bonedwarf · 03-17-2004, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mking55
An interesting comment. I totally disagree but respect your right to think that way.

Without going into details, the ootp baseball game (which I have bought every year since ootp2), is a huge disappointment in my mind.

A) Why do you continue to buy it?
B) What is so wrong with it?

JohnnyBench · 03-17-2004, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by mking55

"Sorry, I am off topic. Your comment sent me off the deep end again and I need to remember to take my meds."

mking55,

Hey no problem. I have problems with OOTP also. Obviously not as many as you.

But I still love the game.

I can honestly say that no game ever absorbed me like OOTP Baseball. And then wouldn't you know some body had to go and make TBCB!

I woke up last night at about 3:00 a.m. thinking about what background story to type up for the new guy entering into my (fictional) Global Championship Boxing universe.

JohnnyBench · 03-17-2004, 08:21 PM

Andreas,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your input into our whinning.

I am excited to hear that you do intend to add some of these features. I know that everything that you guys add is above and beyond what we "deserve."

Thanks for listening and careing.

And I don't blame you for holding back some goodies for the next version!

Bonedwarf · 03-18-2004, 12:01 AM

Having tried MVP Baseball 2004 this afternoon and the stupid backwardass way EA have set it up so you can only use approved gamepads, and the hour I spent trying to get it to recognise mine, may I just add to my previous post that EA Sports is run by a bunch of total motherloving dickheads.

Roydboy · 03-18-2004, 03:56 PM

A question for Andreas:

The present ranking system shown on the titles screen has been cited in the past as needing more work. Since this is already a part of the game, is this one of the items to be addressed in the next patch?

Andreas Raht · 03-18-2004, 04:03 PM

The rankings system should be fine now! Did I miss anything?

rastak · 03-18-2004, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andreas Raht
The rankings system should be fine now! Did I miss anything?

Rankings work great as far as I'm concerned.....but what about title fight notation on the history screen as well as a linear history of the titles?

Soon?

That's last on my list of must haves...everything else is perfect (while we wait for the role-playing game, which will be one helluva game).

guitarman · 03-18-2004, 05:26 PM

"The rankings system should be fine now! Did I miss anything? "

We must not be playing the same game. The rankings are not bad and game is playable with them but all you have to do is go back and re-read all the posts about the rankings to see where the complaints come from.

guitarman · 03-18-2004, 05:44 PM

After re-reading what I posted a couple of times I may have come off a bit harsh towards the rankings. In reality the rankings system may be the best it can be in this type of game design. The rankings system has to be very complex in its current stage and has already been fine tuned over time to get to the current state.

I just have a hard time accepting that sometimes ones rank decreases when he beats someone ranked above him. Surely it was mentioned during beta testing by the testers and adjustments were make to get it to the level it is now. We have to keep in mind that it is a game and not humans doing the rankings heh.

03-16-2004, 03:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
mking55 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 703	Enhancement versus Patch I wanted to make this it's own thread because I don't want what I have to say to get lost amongst the posts. A "patch" is some software that FIXES something that does not work as designed, or causes problems with the software product. An "enhancement" is something that is added on to the product to add a new feature. There is a HUGE difference between the two. I am a very critical person and love a good argument, but frankly I have no argument with the TBCB people. They have produced an excellent product almost right out of the box. They have 'patched' the bugs. I am satisified. Could the product be better? Of course. You can look at anything and say it could be better. Do I feel I am 'owed' anything by the producers of TBCB? No, they don't owe me anything. As far as I am concerned they have met their commitment to me as a consumer. And, they have met that commitment to me far better and quicker than any other sports sim I have purchased. I am confident that if someone discovers a 'bug' in the game, it will be fixed almost immediately. Other than that, they do not have to produce any of what are commonly and incorrectly called 'patches'. If they choose to release enhancements to this product, I will take them and be happy to have them. If they don't, it doesn't matter. I think people should keep making suggestions because even if it doesn't appear as an ENHANCEMENT in this version of the game, it could very well appear in the next version (role-playing). I just wanted to make clear the difference between a patch and an enhancement. The sports sims developers I have seen would be well advised to start calling their additional releases to a product what they are. If a patch is required, then they owe me and I am sure they will deliver. An enhancement is rarely, if ever, required, and if they deliver one then it's a bonus to me.

03-16-2004, 07:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
vistaman44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Auxvasse, Mo. Posts: 3,143	Can't disagree with any of this. Frustrating, but thanks for the perspective, guys. __________________ ---Mark (vistaman44) "What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us." — Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, philosopher and poet (1803-1882) ----------------------------------- Currently operating 1980s JM-HW, 1940s, African, 1980s LW and women's boxing universes

03-18-2004, 04:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
Andreas Raht Administrator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hollern/Stade/Germany Posts: 4,317	The rankings system should be fine now! Did I miss anything? __________________ Andreas Raht andreas@ootpdevelopments.com Out of the Park Developments Out of the Park Baseball Development Team Title Bout Development Team

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03-16-2004, 04:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
guitarman Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 39	Good point! I will be disappointed if there are no other enhancements to this version but I do feel I have got more than my money's worth already. From some of the posts from Andreas it does seem like there will be at least a few more enhancements to this version before they move completely on to a future version.

03-16-2004, 06:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
crusadecat All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 799	Yes I agree I plan to keep on throwing out ideas and concepts because I feel that this is a forum for such a thing. But like you said I don't feel like we are owed anything more that what we have now, Which speaking for myself here delivers hours of enjoyment after a hard day of work

03-16-2004, 10:48 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lee Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix Az Posts: 1,851	Well put

03-17-2004, 07:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
JohnnyBench Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 254	I agree 100% MKING, The only thing that I would add is that there is also a gray area that seperates an enhancement from a patch. Often times a product, while it is very good and has areas that are not "broke" and in need of "fixing." They often are delivered to us with areas that are not user friendly. This game, while being the greatest ever of it's kind, has a couple of those areas. Unable to edit Histories Unable to print Lack of title histories few others mentioned.. Some would say that these are not just enhancements, but oversights. I know, it's a close call for some and again I am not trying to muddy the water, but these gray areas are controversial and important to some. I agree 100% that we are not owed anything, but if we are honest, we expect certain things when the name OOTP DEVELOPMENTS is attached to something. Yes, we are spoiled and we like it. So, now I guess I'll just shut up and play the game!

03-17-2004, 08:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
JohnnyBench Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 254	Originally posted by mking55 "Sorry, I am off topic. Your comment sent me off the deep end again and I need to remember to take my meds." mking55, Hey no problem. I have problems with OOTP also. Obviously not as many as you. But I still love the game. I can honestly say that no game ever absorbed me like OOTP Baseball. And then wouldn't you know some body had to go and make TBCB! I woke up last night at about 3:00 a.m. thinking about what background story to type up for the new guy entering into my (fictional) Global Championship Boxing universe.

03-17-2004, 08:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
JohnnyBench Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 254	Andreas, Thanks for your response. I appreciate your input into our whinning. I am excited to hear that you do intend to add some of these features. I know that everything that you guys add is above and beyond what we "deserve." Thanks for listening and careing. And I don't blame you for holding back some goodies for the next version!

03-18-2004, 12:01 AM	#13 (permalink)
Bonedwarf All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,321	Having tried MVP Baseball 2004 this afternoon and the stupid backwardass way EA have set it up so you can only use approved gamepads, and the hour I spent trying to get it to recognise mine, may I just add to my previous post that EA Sports is run by a bunch of total motherloving dickheads.

03-18-2004, 03:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
Roydboy Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 64	A question for Andreas: The present ranking system shown on the titles screen has been cited in the past as needing more work. Since this is already a part of the game, is this one of the items to be addressed in the next patch?

03-18-2004, 05:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
guitarman Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 39	"The rankings system should be fine now! Did I miss anything? " We must not be playing the same game. The rankings are not bad and game is playable with them but all you have to do is go back and re-read all the posts about the rankings to see where the complaints come from.

03-18-2004, 05:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
guitarman Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 39	After re-reading what I posted a couple of times I may have come off a bit harsh towards the rankings. In reality the rankings system may be the best it can be in this type of game design. The rankings system has to be very complex in its current stage and has already been fine tuned over time to get to the current state. I just have a hard time accepting that sometimes ones rank decreases when he beats someone ranked above him. Surely it was mentioned during beta testing by the testers and adjustments were make to get it to the level it is now. We have to keep in mind that it is a game and not humans doing the rankings heh.