The Things You See...

[Cap]

I watched this video the kids gave me for Christmas. Saw some of the Dempsey-Carpentier bout again. Forgot how the Frenchman had Dempsey in serious trouble at one point. Looked like one more good right hand might have put Dempsey down.

Saw some of the Baer-Schmeling mugging....er, fight. Still can't believe what Max Baer got away with. Surprised the ref didn't just pin Schmeling's arms and let Baer pound him. Disgusting.

Then I see Marciano knocks Walcott down with a right then smacks him with a left when he's down on the ropes. Good chance he'd be DQ'd nowadays. Rocky was an exciting fighter, but watch him attack Louis and see how many punches he had to land to put the old guy away. And no way was Marciano dogging it in there. Louis in his prime would've whipped Marciano. Here's a wild thought. Tommy Farr had the chin and skills to outbox Marciano.

Happy New Year!

Cap

[mrchallenge]

I think Dempsey pretty much had Carpentier under control once Carpentier broke his hand on Dempsey's skull. LOL.

I've only seen highlights of Baer, Schmeling. Can you tell me more about what happened? It was supposed to be Baers greatest performance, but I've heard that the German was ahead on points at the time of the stoppage.

Your absolutely right about Marciano-Louis. But I think Marciano wasn't completely developed until around the 2nd Charles fight. An arguement can be made that it was Pre-prime Marciano in there with the washed up shell of a man once known as the brown bomber.

[mrchallenge]

Heres another thought. What if it was a Prime Ezzard Charles in there with Marciano, not a 32 year old one? Who do you think would have won? I call it a pick'em. And how about Walcott and Marciano in a 12th rounder LOL. Since the KO happened in the faithful 13.

[Mr Big]

Cap:

With all due respect, Tommy Farr would have been no match for a prime Rocky Marciano. Too much firepower from Rocky. Tommy would have been elusive, no doubt, but, in the end, Marciano deposits him neatly on the canvas, a la Jersey Joe Walcott. My pick: "The Rock" by knockout in 9.

[Cap]

Originally Posted by Mr Big

Cap:

With all due respect, Tommy Farr would have been no match for a prime Rocky Marciano. Too much firepower from Rocky. Tommy would have been elusive, no doubt, but, in the end, Marciano deposits him neatly on the canvas, a la Jersey Joe Walcott. My pick: "The Rock" by knockout in 9.

If a prime Joe Louis couldn't do it in 15, I don't see Marciano doing it. Farr was as tough as they come. I think if the fight was in England with a strict neutral ref and judges, Farr has the heart and skills to eke out a decision. If the fight takes place in the states with Frankie Brown as the third man and three American judges, Marciano gets the nod.

Cap

[Cap]

Originally Posted by mrchallenge

I think Dempsey pretty much had Carpentier under control once Carpentier broke his hand on Dempsey's skull. LOL.

I've only seen highlights of Baer, Schmeling. Can you tell me more about what happened? It was supposed to be Baers greatest performance, but I've heard that the German was ahead on points at the time of the stoppage.

Your absolutely right about Marciano-Louis. But I think Marciano wasn't completely developed until around the 2nd Charles fight. An arguement can be made that it was Pre-prime Marciano in there with the washed up shell of a man once known as the brown bomber.

Mr. C. If you get to watch this gem, all you need to see is the last round where Baer repeatedly and openly backhands Schmeling and gets nothing from the ref. Baer was a wild man who rabbit-punched and kidney-punched and used every dirty trick in the book if the ref turned a blind eye. I love watching Joe Louis beat the crap out of the big stiff. Especially when you know what he did to guys like Frankie Campbell.

Cap

[Mr Big]

Originally Posted by Cap

If a prime Joe Louis couldn't do it in 15, I don't see Marciano doing it. Farr was as tough as they come. I think if the fight was in England with a strict neutral ref and judges, Farr has the heart and skills to eke out a decision. If the fight takes place in the states with Frankie Brown as the third man and three American judges, Marciano gets the nod.

Cap

Good point Cap. But keep in mind that just over six months later a post-prime Max Baer put Tommy on the canvas twice en route to a fifteen round decision victory. If an over-the-hill Baer could put Farr down two times, I think a prime Marciano could have put him down and out. Another point of interest about Tommy Farr. According to boxrec.com, it looks as if Farr was 12 years old when he started his pro boxing career. Is that possible?

[Cap]

Wildehawke would be the one to ask about British fighters. I'd never heard about Baer putting Farr down. Must have hit him in the nether regions. Two fights before the Louis go, Farr decisioned Baer over 12 rounds. Strangely, after giving Louis such a tough fight, he dropped his next 4 decisions in New York City to Braddock (sentimental favourite's last pro fight?), Baer, Lou Nova and Red Burman. I would love to have seen those fights in person.

As for the young start, I know he fought in the boxing booths early on. I assume his opponents were kids too. Kinda semi-pro fights.

[mrchallenge]

I think the reason why Louis had such a hard time with Farr is mainly due to

1. Styles make fights (I know, its an overused cliche, but an accurate one)

2. Joe just had an off night

3. Joe may not have taken Farr as seriously as he should of and maybe took Farr lightly because he was coming of a title winning victory over Braddock and thought that Farr would serve as British Pastry for his first title defense. Boy was he wrong!!!

Since Joe was a master of rematches, he probably would have blown Farr away in a rematch. Who knows why a rematch was never made. Alot of opponents gave Joe a tought fight the first time around, but Louis was invincible in rematches.

[wildhawke11]

Joe Louis v Tommy Farr

First Round

Farr opened the proceedings with a left
to Louis's body. Grim faced, with his
chin tucked well down into his left
shoulder, the Welshman opened up another
attack, in which he scored with a fine left,
He continued to make the fighting, and
once more he rushed in at Louis, hammer-
ing away with both fists in a furious bout
of punching.
It was obvious that Farr's intention
was to keep Louis moving. He did not
intend to allow the negro to get posi-
tioned to let out his "murderous" left.
Farr again went in and narrowly missed
Louis's chin. The champion retaliated by
shooting out his left aimlessly. Farr nipped
in quickly and scored with a one-two punch
to the head and body, and Louis
replied with a left to the face.
The British champion refused to let
up for a moment, and in he rushed again
to force Louis to the ropes. The negro,
however, fought back strongly and got
in some straight lefts, but they lacked sting.
Louis thought he saw an opening for a
left hook, but a quick feint by Farr made
him miss by a long way. Louis again
tried with some snappy lefts to Farr's head,
and the latter replied with hefty body
punches, followed by a tattoo of lefts to
the negro's head. Still Farr relentlessly
went after his man and forced Louis to
retreat under the fierceness of his attack.
Easily Farr's round.



Second Round

Farr tried to open with his left, but
missed. They both fell into a clinch broke
away without any damage being done, and
then indulged in some sparring at long
range.
The Welshman scored well to the body
with both hands, after which both ex-
changed a series of left jabs. Louis scored
to Farr's face with one such punch, but
Farr, who was moving around like a ballet
dancer, leapt away from the force of the
blow. He kept moving swiftly, obviously
part of the secret plans, and leapt in like
lightning with jabs to the head. Again he
landed with a light right and then missed
with another.
Louis then came into his own a little
and jolted Farr's head with a stinging left.
Farr soon showed that he was not badly
hurt, for he came back to send Louis
against the ropes with a fierce two-fisted
attack to Louis's ribs.
The champion, however, gave punch
for punch and landed with another of
his hard lefts, but Farr replied by
planting several lefts in his opponent's
face, and finished the round with a hard
right to the body. Farr's round.



Third Round

It was Farr, who again started the offen-
sive in this session with a right hook to
Louis's head and then, going into a clinch,
got in several light blows to the body,
followed by a hefty right which caught
Louis on the side of the head. He repeated
this blow, but Louis countered it with a
fine right to the head.
Louis thought he saw another opening for
a knockout, and he tried with a terrific
right to the head, but Farr, who was bob-
bing and weaving cleverly, made him miss
by a wide margin.
Farr repeatedly circled out of distance of
Louis's deadly left and the negro was given
few opportunities of bringing it into action.
Jabbing constantly and peppering Louis's
face with light lefts, he appeared to be
getting the negro worried.
With what seemed a little like desper-
ation, Louis jumped in and landed two swift
left jabs, followed by a series of rights.
Louis, finding this method of attack suc-
cessful, again moved in and jabbed away
swiftly at Farr's face.
This treatment caused Farr to retreat
gradually, but towards the end of the
round he again went into his man and
caught him with a hard short left,followed
by a right to the head.
At this point Farr's right eye was
bleeding, but it was difficult to see if it
was an old injury that had been
reopened. Just as the round ended Louis
poked a hard right to Farr's head. Louis's
round.



Fourth Round

Louis began by scoring with a left jab
to the face, but Farr countered with a left
hook, and then beat a tattoo to Louis's
head.
It was now Louis who was doing all
the forcing. He worked Farr into a
corner, but Farr, revealing his splendid
ringcraft, maneuvered himself out of
danger.
Farr rushed in with a right hook to
Louis's head, but the latter retaliated by jerk-
ing back Farr's head with a similar blow.
Farr tried a right, but Louis swept it aside
and "pecked" Farr's face with some light
lefts. Louis led with a left jab, but Farr
countered this by shooting out a piston-like
left to Louis's nose.
Louis continued to beat a tattoo on Farr's
face with his left hand. Farr tried a right
hook, missed badly, but followed up with
a hard right to the head. Louis was now
continually moving in and backed Farr
against the ropes, where he missed with a
heavy right hook.
Farr countered with a bombardment to
the body and turned the tables by forcing
Louis to the ropes. Louis's round.



Fifth Round

Louis pecked at Farr's face with a left,
and Farr replied in kind. An exchange of
blows from long range followed, and Farr
got in a right to the head. Louis poked
another left to Farr's face, and Farr, trying
to attack, was beaten back.
The pace of fighting had naturally
slackened down a lot at this point, and
the crowd impatiently clapped for action.
The boxers, however, continued to
exchange the lightest of blows, but later
Farr landed with a stinging right to
Louis's head. Louis replied with a ter-
rific right which shook Farr.
The Welshman fought back savagely
and, bobbing and weaving, landed with a
right swing to the head. Louis was still
eager to force the pace, however, and he
again walked in with a left hook, but
missed with his repeat attempt.
Farr then leapt in and shot out three
quick lefts, but Louis, unaffected, scored
with a similar blow. Louis's round.



Sixth Round

Farr's two eyes were bleeding slightly
at the end of the fifth round, but he came
out strongly enough for the sixth.
He scored with a light left to the body
and then he drove the negro across the ring,
while the crowd roared frantically as he
slammed away and scored with an upper-
cut.
Farr's left eye began to bleed again, but
this did not stop him attacking. He landed
a heavy left hook and followed up with a
stinging jab to the head. Farr again
charged forward and hurt Louis with a
powerful left to the body. A left uppercut
followed, after which both exchanged lefts
at long distance.
Farr, again bobbing and weaving for an
opening, saw on and immediately flashed
out a tremendous right hook which shook
Louis. Not letting up, Tommy got in a
series of light lefts to the face and then
avoided Louis's attempts to jab him in the
face.
Farr was timing perfectly at this stage,
and he swung over a powerful hard right
which landed on top of the negro's
head. Another hard right to the body
followed, and Farr finished the round
attacking furiously. Farr's round.



Seventh Round

Tommy came out of his corner smartly
and struck out some snappy lefts to the
negro's face. He continued to score
repeatedly with some finely-timed left
swings, but the champion, seizing an open-
ing, caught Farr with a couple left
hooks.
The men fell into a clinch, where they
pummeled away to the body, but the force
of Farr's attacks compelled Louis to give
ground. The challenger backed Louis to
the ropes and shot out both hands to
the body quickly, but Louis, fighting
desperately, cleared his way out and
landed with two terrific lefts. Louis got
his left hand going perfectly at this point,
and Farr did not find it so easy to avoid it.
Farr again was bleeding from cuts
under both eyes. Louis attempted to
force home his advantage, and scored
with both hands to the head, forcing
Tommy to give ground.
Farr's face was now a gory sight, the
blood from his eye injuries streaming down
his face. He was still full of fight, how-
ever, but a last desperate attack was
spoiled by over-eagerness. Louis's round.



Eighth Round

Louis, sensing that he was gaining the
mastery, came smartly out of his corner,
eager for the "kill." He got in a light left,
but Farr retaliated likewise, and then,
feinting cleverly, sent over a right to the
face. Farr threw another right, but it went
harmlessly over Louis's head.
Tommy backed up and flicked Louis with
a one-two punch, driving him to the
ropes, where the negro met his attack with
two quick left hooks to the head.
Louis scored with another left jab, but
this stung Farr into action, for he leapt
in and landed a stinging left hook to the
head. Louis, impassive as ever, walked
grimly into his man again, jabbing away
relentlessly to Farr's head.
After Farr had missed badly with a right
the two men circled around each other in
the center of the ring until Farr caught his
man with a stiff right uppercut and then
poured in a ceaseless attack to Louis's body.
Fighting at terrific speed, Farr, with both
arms flailing like windmills, forced Louis
to the ropes once more, causing him to hang
on. Farr tried to force him off, and chopped
down a right and left to the head. Louis
replied by scoring with a hard right to the
head and another on Farr's bleeding eye.
Farr was still full of fight, and just
before the bell he shook Louis with a hard
right hook to the body. Farr's round.



Ninth Round

Farr came up comparatively fresh and
eager to get to grips, and he opened the
attack with two left hooks to the head. He
then tore in furiously and got Louis on the
ropes, where he punched away smartly to
the body. Joe fought back and got in two
straight lefts, but Farr, again feinting
cleverly, shot out a right, but it just missed
its mark.
Louis continued to concentrate on Farr's
damaged eye, but Farr tried to keep him
away by shooting out stinging lefts. He got
in a fine left hook to the body and then
forced Louis to the ropes once more with a
heavy bombardment.
At this stage Louis's right eye appeared
to be puffing up. Farr again rushed Louis
to the ropes with fierceness of his
attack, and he battered away at the negro's
body.
They clinched following a fine left hook
by Farr, and Louis got in some jabs to the
face. They again fell into a clinch where
Farr landed with a right to the head, the
force of which shook the champion.
Following up, Farr poked Louis on the
chin with a stiff left hook. Farr's round.



Tenth Round

The crowd cheered vociferously for Farr
as he came out for this session and landed
with a light left to the face and another
to the stomach. Farr again walked into
his man and scored with a left hook to the
body, to which Louis replied with another
left-hander which had not the slightest
weight behind it.
Farr then threw over a hard right hook to
the head, followed by two more rights to the
same quarter. Farr was attacking ceaselessly
and got in another left to the body. Farr again
tore into his man and forced him to the ropes
but Louis fought him off with a "haymaking"
right, which, however, only just scraped Farr's
face. It was a fortunate escape. Louis jabbed
with his left as Tommy again moved in, but he
missed.
Farr landed with a light left to the face
and then missed with a "roundhouse" right.
A heavy left caught Louis in the body, how-
ever, and Louis trying to fight off his man,
missed with a right.
Louis fought back strongly towards the end
of the round, however, and shook Farr with a
right to the head just before the bell.
Louis's round.



Eleventh Round

Farr scored smartly with a left from long
range, and again jumping in quickly, caught
Louis on top of the head with a right. Farr
was a little impetuous and a wild right failed to
find its mark. He jabbed Louis in the face with
his left, when the latter tried similar tactics
Farr took blows on his arms. With his
clever ducking and weaving he was an extremely
difficult target to hit.
The Welshman continued to keep his left
going well, and he landed with a series of four
in succession to Louis's face. Farr attacked
with two left-handers and then chopped over a
right, forcing Louis to the ropes once again.
He attempted to put over a smashing right,
but he mistimed it and caught Louis on the
shoulder. he pecked Louis lightly in the face
and then jabbed him with a hard right to the
same quarter.
Farr maintained a furious attack and got in to
the head and body with both hands. Farr ended
the round with a fusillade of lefts to the
face. Easily Farr's round.



Twelfth Round

The crowd was again shouting for Farr as
Louis stepped in and shot a barrage of straight
lefts. Farr returned to the attack, however, and
stung the negro with a series of left hooks to
the head. He drove his man to the ropes. Louis
tried to force his way out and landed with a
right to the head, but it made no impression on
Farr, who was displaying a magnificent defense.
Louis cleverly ducked under a left swing, but
Farr crowded his man and smartly forced him
to retreat. He swung a heavy left-hook to
Louis's ear and continued to jab the champion
in the face. The negro was unable to get set,
as Farr moved around quickly, swiftly shooting
out his left hand in a disconcerting manner.
Farr scored to the face and then threw over
a heavy right-hook to the face; but this was
blocked in clever style by Louis. Farr again
shot out a chopping right-hander to Louis's
chin. Round even.



Thirteenth Round

The boxers exchanged lefts, and then after
encircling each other, Farr bored in and punched
away to the body with heavy rights. Louis
replied with several left hooks to the body, but
Farr fought his man off and got his left working
again.
Tommy's eyes and nose were slightly bleeding
at this stage, but it did not look serious. Louis
pushed over some short, snappy lefts to the head,
but Farr countered with similar tactics.
They continued to employ the same tactics,
but Farr changed the order by scoring with two
rights to the side of the head.
Louis threw over a short right hook to the head
and followed with some left jabs to the face.
Farr attempted to open up an attack, but he
missed badly with his right, although he scored
with a left. Louis on the ropes, fought his way
clear and proceeded to belabour Farr with some
rights and lefts to the head.
Farr wilted under the force of his attacks,
one of them caused more blood to flow freely
from his nose.
An exchange of lefts and rights to the head
followed, but Louis wound up the round with
a vicious attack. Louis's round.



Fourteenth Round

Louis started operations with a left, which he
poked on to Farr's gory nose; and Farr retaliated
with a right which, however, missed its objec-
tive. As Louis walked in again, Tommy ducked
away, but Louis would not be denied and landed
a couple of lefts to the body. Farr missed with
his counting efforts and then attempted to get
inside, but Louis chopping and jabbing, forced
him off.
Louis was now definitely making the pace,
and he caught Farr with a volley of straight
lefts. Farr replied by slinging over some right-
handers, but they missed Louis's head by a
wide margin. Louis landed to the side of the
head with a short right and caused Farr to
dance out of distance. Louis's round.

Excitement was at fever pitch at the ringside when the final round began, the crowd were even shouting "Stay with him, Tommy"

Fifteenth Round

Farr came out first and met his man in the
center of the ring, where they shook hands for
the final round. Farr immediately started to
beat a tattoo of lefts to Louis's face, followed by
a right to the head.
They exchanged several short jabs, and then
Farr shot out his left, which was working like a
piston rod. He missed with a right to the body,
but landed with a left, after which Louis tried
a couple of rights.
The champion's timing was faulty, however,
and Farr found opportunity to push out two
lefts to the head. Farr, bobbing and weaving at
a great pace, caught Louis on the neck, but the
latter countered with a two-fisted attack to
Farr's body.
Tommy landed with a left, but missed with
his following right, whereas Louis bored in and
plastered the Welshman with heavy two-handed
punches and drove him to the ropes.
Farr advanced again, however, and scored
with his left much to the delight of the crowd,
but he missed badly with a terrific right-hander.
Louis's round.

Result.- LOUIS beat FARR on points.

To add to the above after reading Chaley's post below this, there are a few reports on the web of the Louis v Farr fight, all pretty much the same.
The use of the word Negro was not of my choosing i just pasted this from the web. The reason being it was a little more detailed report then most. I would never if it had been my report of the fight used any slang words when referring to a fighters race. Plus the above was wrote in 1937 when of course peoples views were a lot different then thankfully they are today.

In fact i am Irish myself and many times in my younger days i have pulled people up when they have addressed me using the term Paddy instead of using my real name. I truly believe in treating people as you yourself would like to be treated. So i apologise if the use of the word Negro in the above post offended anyone on this forum.

[chaleyit]

Originally Posted by wildhawke11

Joe Louis v Tommy Farr

He did not intend to allow the negro to get posi-
tioned to let out his "murderous" left.

My God, I have not been seen a Black person refered to as a negro since the early sixties.

In my opinion, Marciano is one of histories most over rated fighters. He came along at a time when the great fighters were over the hill or just entering the game. He retired just before the next crop of great fighters came into the game. I will take Dempsey over Marciano. Dempsey was a fighter with great skills and nearly impecable ring generalship. Liston or Patterson would have mopped the floor up with Marciano.

I don't think Louis had an off night against Farr, I think Far was just one of those fighters that had Joe's number. Farr knew how to fight Louis. There are some fighters that will give other great fighters a harder time than others. An example is Ken Norton and Muhammad Ali. Norton, while a very good fighter, is in my estimate not a great fighter. Yet he gave Ali some of his hardest fights. That is how I think Farr was to Louis.

[Cap]

Danny, I knew immediately that you were excerpting from a newspaper account. Negro was a perfectly acceptable word in those days as it is Spanish for black. "Coloured" was also, at one time. Then it was black and then Afro-American or African-American. That discourse is for another forum.

Now back to the fight. I scored it based on the blow by blow and had it 7 rounds for Farr (the 10th was incorrectly given to Louis), 6 for Louis with two (12 and 15) even. A masterful performance by the Welshman. Might have been one of those nights fighters talk about when every single thing feels "right" like they could punch holes through concrete or lick any pug on the planet. Funny how this fight is almost never mentioned when they talk about Louis and his toughest title defenses. Always Conn or Walcott or whatever. I have new respect for the Tonypandy Terror!

Cap

[chaleyit]

Hey I wasn't insinuating anything about Danny. He and I have interacted before and I know him to be a fine person. Just hadn't seen the term in such a long time. As for me, I prefer to be called, Chaley LOL.

[wildhawke11]

Originally Posted by chaleyit

Hey I wasn't insinuating anything about Danny. He and I have interacted before and I know him to be a fine person. Just hadn't seen the term in such a long time. As for me, I prefer to be called, Chaley LOL.

Chaley
I was not sure if you thought i had wrote that report so did a little edit at the bottom.

I jokingly told my wife about you calling me a fine man she said "he has not got to live with you". Truth hurts dont it
Mind you she has put up with me for over 44 years now so i must have something going for me. Must be a sexual thing ( i wish )

Wilde,

Thanks so much for the writeup on the Louis-Farr fight.

I wish the TBCB commentary was as good!

From the Farr fight and numerous other Louis fights it has to be concluded that
a- Louis did not have a good defense.
b- Louis tended to start slow.

However, it must also be concluded that
c- Louis had excellent endurance.
d- Louis had great punching accuracy, great power and a terrific killer instinct.

So if you fight Louis you can either box safety first, in which case you'll lose on points or get KO'd late, or you can box aggressively, which gives you a chance to win but also a great chance to get KO'd at any time.

[Mr Big]

[quote=chaleyit]

In my opinion, Marciano is one of histories most over rated fighters. He came along at a time when the great fighters were over the hill or just entering the game. He retired just before the next crop of great fighters came into the game. I will take Dempsey over Marciano. Dempsey was a fighter with great skills and nearly impecable ring generalship. Liston or Patterson would have mopped the floor up with Marciano./QUOTE]

First of all, it isn't Marciano's fault that he fought in what many consider to be a weak era in the heavyweight division. He didn't run from anyone, and beat everyone who was placed in front of him. Can't ask for any more than that. I like Dempsey, but he never fought Harry Wills or Sam Langford. Was it his fault? No. Did it leave a lot of "what ifs." Absolutely. In a 15 round fight, I like Marciano by stoppage in 10.

Floyd Patterson was a decent man, but not one of the all-time great heavyweight champions. He had a hard time with Ingemmar Johansson's "power", not to mention the punches coming from Sonny Liston. Rocky knocks his block off inside of 6.

I do agree that Sonny Liston would have too much for Rocky Marciano. Too big. Too strong. Too devastating. Rocky, as always, would have given it a good effort, but ultimately fall inside of 8 rounds.

[chaleyit]

It is fruitless to argue against you because there is no way we will be able to prove it. It is true that Marciano had 49 consecutive wins, a magnificent feat in any area. However, in my opinion, none of his opponent were of a caliber of even a Floyd Patterson. I agree that Patterson was not one of the all time greats, you are correct. However, I do not think Marciano could have beat him because he was fast, and he would not stand still for a Marciano head on attack. Just my opinion. Again I say all of Marciano opponents were either past their prime and near retirement or just low quality. He would not have faired well in an era with fighters like Ali, Frazier, and even Foreman.

I did a simulation with Marciano and Dempsey. Here is what happened.

[

I]Right at the bell of the opening round, Marciano came on strong, scoring heavily against Jack Dempsey. The latter did not waste any time retaliating and actually had Rocky on the run after hurting him with a vicious combination towards the end of the round. Both fighters scored heavily and the crowd was going wild. The first round went to Dempsey.

After a very slow second round the action picked up again in third with Dempsey making up for losing the slow 2nd round. Once again both fighters were throwing leather, but Dempsey’s speed was giving him a definite advantage. In the fourth, everyone was shocked when Marciano was floored by a Dempsey right cross. He was down until the count of nine, taking as much time as he could to regroup. According to Rocky “I was definitely hurt, I didn’t realize he (Dempsey) could hit so hard. Marciano, though admittedly hurt, was able to get up and even mount an offensive. Dempsey wins the fourth, the fifth is slower in comparison but still good action and it is scored as even. Once again the action and the pace heated up in the sixth which saw Dempsey come out on top. Marciano stages a huge offensive and wins the seventh round, only to see Dempsey rally in the eighth. Jack through a right cross that hurt Rocky in the eighth, Rocky, though hurt and covering, still managed to get in some heavy shots himself. The round went to Dempsey who at that point had a pretty big lead.

According to Teddy Hayes, Dempsey’s trainer, “After eight I knew my boy was in the lead. So I tells him, I says, Jack, all you gotta do is stay busy in there, and don’t get caught with one of this guy’s big shots. He (Marciano) is a heavy puncher, but you got him where you want him, he is gonna be desperate, use that to your advantage”.

Indeed Marciano came out with the intent of making up for lost ground in the ninth, but Dempsey, though taking some good shots, out boxed him to win the round. The tenth started out slow, but then got heated. In the sizzling action, a Marciano left hook, sent Dempsey reeling into the ropes. Teddy Hayes saw his fighter struggling desperately to hang on. Dempsey’s defensive skills pull him through a round that Marciano won big.

“I told Rock that we were behind and that he had to get out there take this guy out. I really thought Rock could take this guy, I didn’t realize just how good a fighter he (Dempsey) is.” Chuck Goldman, Marciano’s Trainer.

After Dempsey won the eleventh, everyone expected Rocky Marciano to let it all hang out for the KO in the 12th and final round. Instead, the Brockton Blockbuster came out in a normal boxing strategy. “Truth is”, says Marciano, “I just didn’t have anything left at that point, I just wanted to get through the round without collapsing.”

It came as no surprise that the unanimous decision went to the Manassa Mauler and by a pretty good margin as he consistently out boxed Marciano all during the fight. Despite the brutal action, both fighters were relatively unmarked save a few bruises.
Each fighter spoke highly of the other and the crowd gave the warriors a standing ovation for their efforts. It was totally obvious that we were watching two masters of the ring. [/i]

Of course it is just a simulation and it proves nothing. In another simulation Marciano defeated Harry Wills, so there goes my theory up in smoke.

Thanks for your opinion Mr Big.

[mrchallenge]

Thanx for the description Hawke. I'm African Canadian, and I know no harm was intended by you and I'm not offended in the least.

I disagree somewhat witih 60's fan sayinig that Louis didn't have a good defense. Sure he may not have been a clone of Pernell Whitaker or Willie Pep, but he was pretty good at defense for a KO artist. Name another fighter other than Farr and Billy Conn during Louis' prime that was able to land alot of punches. Louis picked off jabs and slipped right hands with the best of them.

Originally Posted by mrchallenge

Thanx for the description Hawke. I'm African Canadian, and I know no harm was intended by you and I'm not offended in the least.

I disagree somewhat witih 60's fan sayinig that Louis didn't have a good defense. Sure he may not have been a clone of Pernell Whitaker or Willie Pep, but he was pretty good at defense for a KO artist. Name another fighter other than Farr and Billy Conn during Louis' prime that was able to land alot of punches. Louis picked off jabs and slipped right hands with the best of them.

The reason I have doubts about Louis' defense is that he not only got nailed by slick boxers Farr, Walcott (in both fights), Conn (in their first fight), and Schmeling (first fight of course) but he was also hurt badly by the wide sweeping punches of Buddy Baer and Tony Galento, both of whom put him down. It's hard for me to imagine Baer and Galento knocking down Lennox Lewis, let alone good defensive fighters like Larry Holmes or Muhammad Ali.

[mrchallenge]

Originally Posted by 60'sfan

The reason I have doubts about Louis' defense is that he not only got nailed by slick boxers Farr, Walcott (in both fights), Conn (in their first fight), and Schmeling (first fight of course) but he was also hurt badly by the wide sweeping punches of Buddy Baer and Tony Galento, both of whom put him down. It's hard for me to imagine Baer and Galento knocking down Lennox Lewis, let alone good defensive fighters like Larry Holmes or Muhammad Ali.

You're right. Louis doesn't have as good of a defense as Holmes or Ali, but than again, those guys are boxers, not punchers like Louis. Louis' defense may be suspect for a boxer, but it's very good for a puncher. Compare Louis' defense to other punchers like Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman and Marciano. Even compare Louis' defense to punchers in other divisions like Ruben Olivares adn Alexis Arguello. Louis has a better defense than all of those guys. Louis' defense is probably somewhere between that of Holmes and Frazier. Not quite as elusive as Holmes but not as easy to hit as Frazier. I think the -2 that TBCB gives him is fair.

You also have to realize that even a defensive master like Holmes got hit and Knocked down quite alot too. Remember Ronaldo Swipes, Tim Witherspoon, Gerry Cooney among others. Both Buddy Baer and Galento were pretty good punchers.

Also if they had punchstat numbers back in those days you you'll see that Louis doesn't get hit alot. Alot has to do with his intimidation and keeping his opponent on the defensive, but some of it is definitly due to his defense as well.