More on Langford and Johnson

[Cap]

Hi, guys. Came across some tidbits. In 1905, Jack Johnson fought WW Young Peter Jackson. Jackson, who stood 5' 6" tall, had packed on about ten pounds or so for this fight. Still, he was a small guy by comparison. The contract called for Johnson to knock out Peter to get the winner's share of the purse. He had 12 rounds to do it, and he failed. So much for good KO power.

In 1906, Sam Langford had been fighting for just 4 years, mostly at what today is welter or jr-middleweight, and had made something of a name for himself. He was 23 years old. Johnson, by comparison, was 28 years old and had been fighting for 12 years against the top black fighters of the day. He was in his prime. Any real surprise that Johnson won? The real shocker to me is that Langford stayed the distance. If Johnson could kayo an opponent he would. The win over Langford was sandwiched between two KOs.

The Langford of 1910 or so was a fighting machine with knockout power in either fist. Johnson was 32 and fighting washed-up Jim Jeffries, et al. I think Johnson was afraid of what Langford had developed into, just as he feared Joe Jeannette. (In their last meeting, they had fought to a draw.)

One final item. In the semi-final bout to the Dempsey-Miske fight in Philly back in 1918, Jeff Clarke fought Sam Langford. So Dempsey likely saw these two first-hand.

Cap

[chaleyit]

Well the one thing is obvious Cap, you are not a Jack Johnson fan. My son - an ex pro boxer - thinks very highly of Langford also. He puts Langford over Ali. Kids now days
:-)

I submit to you that the first Langston/Johnson fight sounds similar to the first Ali - Liston fight. Liston the seasoned veteran and Ali the brash young kid. But the kid won, Langston didn't. Nyah nyah.

[mrchallenge]

Well. I happen to be a fan of both Johnson and Langford. I guess, Johnson did have alot of character flaws but so did Ali. Didn't Ali cheat on wife a couple of times and was a sexist?

I guess the moral here is not to create false idols of people but at the same time salute them for their accomplishments.

Here is my final analysis on Johnson:

Great fighter? Yes

Great Man? Yes

Good Man? Nice Guy? That all depends.

[chaleyit]

Well said. If I recall Ali cheated on his wife nearly every opportunity he had. Being of the Islamic faith he (Ali) did have view about women that are less progressive than most people today. Like you say, lets just celebrate the fighter and worship God.

I still like JJ and I still feel that most of the criticism of him - not by Cap - by the press of his day was because he was not apologietic and demanded to be treated as a man. He did have his flaws. Pity he couldn't perfect like us :-)

[wildhawke11]

If its a question of P4P who was the better fighter its a runaway winner for the smaller man Sam Langford. Yes Johnson beat Langford but i believe Sam was only about 20 years of age at that stage and had not fully matured at the time. I Think i am correct when i say Johnson also had a 30lb weight advantage also. That a bit like asking the great MWs before they reached there peak to step in the ring with Marciano, Dempsey and co.

Of course we can always elevate Jack Johnson to an All Time Great based on him beating little Tommy Burns or the old been inactive for 5 or 6 years Jim Jeffries. Who in fact had to lose 80lb to get in any sort of shape for the fight with the Champion.

If you look at Johnson record and the competition he faced as the champion its really pretty poor. There was some good contenders out there at the time but no way was Johnson going to give anyone who represented a threat to him a crack at the Crown. He wanted easy pickings and no part of a more experienced and bigger Langford or McVey, or perhaps Jeannette.

Have to say thought Johnson sure looked the part against 160 lb and just above journeymen fighters but he came unstuck when he fought a past prime SMW Joe Choynski who flattened him. By all accounts Gunboat Smith knocked Johnson out when sparring with him. But that i can let go because many champs have been put down when sparring.

Again Johnson was a big man for the times, which of course was no handicap to have and a good defensive fighter to go with it. But in all honesty and check it out guys his competition as the champion leaves a lot to be desired. In fact i might go as far as to say it was pretty ordinary and many of the HWs throughout history would have demolished Johnson's competition as champion.

Take Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott and Jerry Quarry who most dont consider in the Top 10. I could see them all beating the guys Johnson faced as the Champion.

One time i myself based on views i had read who had seen Johnson fight telling all how brilliant he was and at time i went along with their views and considered Johnson a bit special but over time and the more i learn about the man i have to say i feel in fact he is overrated but that's just my personal opinion.

Before you all jump down my throat check out Johnson's competition and if you disagree then name me the really good, let alone great HWs he fought.

Chaley
By the sounds of it your son has quit the fight game in a way i am glad to hear that, its a tough life

Wilde,

"Before you all jump down my throat check out Johnson's competition and if you disagree then name me the really good, let alone great HWs he fought"

Johnson fought lots of guys with winning records. That he didn't fight great fighters might also be a reflection of the absence of good fighters available at the time.

By the way, when Johnson beat Langford, in 1906, Jack was 28 and Sam was 23. I'd say both were in their primes.

[wildhawke11]

60s Fan
I should have looked it up yes your correct Langford was 23, but i would not say Langford was at prime when he met the much bigger Johnson.
But please dont say there were no good fighters who Johnson could have not got it on with, There was a bigger stronger Sam Langford, and other decent fighters who he avoided and took the easy route. Thats my whole point Johnson refused to fight the best. So its hard to say he was the best when he never went in with the top guys.

Mind you Johnson did beat a real great P4P in Bob Fitzsimmons but of course he also was about 43 years age at the time.

[erickdamac]

Cap I know Langford is like the only candian fighter, but give it a rest, no need to bash Johnson he beat langford Point blank and simple.

And Wild Byrd gave up a 65 pounds to mcline, oh yeah and 9 inches.

[Rondo_GE]

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jjohn.htm

Based on the Cyber Boxing Zone the complete record of Jack Johnson...as much as we know...

1894
----- John Lee Galveston, TX W 16
(above fight not confirmed by independent records)

Undated (circa 1894-95)
----- Dave Pierson Galveston, TX W
----- Bob Thompson Galveston, TX L 4

1896
----- Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO
----- Howard Pollar Galveston, TX W

1897
----- Jim Rocks Galveston, TX KO 4
----- Sam Smith Galveston, TX W10

1898
----- Reddy Bremer Galveston, TX KO 3
----- Jim Cole Galveston, TX W 4
----- Henry Smith Galveston, TX D 15

1899
11 Feb Jim McCormick Galveston, TX D 7
17 Mar Jim McCormick Galveston, TX WF 7
6 May Klondike Chicago, IL LT 4
16 Dec Pat Smith Galveston, TX D 12

1900
7 Mar John Lee Galveston, TX W 15
20 Mar Willie McNeal Galveston, TX KO 15
6 Apr Bob White Galveston, TX W 15
12 Apr Charley Brooks Galveston, TX KO 2
1 May Jim Scanlan Galveston, TX KO 7
6 May Jim McCormick Galveston, TX KO 2
28 May Jim McCormick Galveston, TX KO 7
12 Jun Horace Miles Galveston, TX KO 3
25 Jun Klondike Galveston, TX D 20

7 Sep Galveston nearly destroyed by flood
- Oct George Lawler Galveston, TX KO 10
- Nov Josh Mills Memphis, TN W 12
28 Dec Klondike Memphis, TN KO 14

1901
25 Feb Joe Choynski Galveston, TX LK 3
(Both fighters arrested after the fight)
22 Mar Choynski and Johnson released from jail
after each posts a $1000 bond
26 Apr Billy Stift Denver, CO D 10
4 Nov Hank Griffin Bakersfield, CA L20
27 Dec Hank Griffin Oakland, CA D15

1902
7 Feb Dan Murphy Waterbury, CT KO10
22 Feb Ed Johnson Galveston, TX KO4
7 Mar Joe Kennedy Oakland, CA KO4
6 Apr Bob White CA W15
16 May Jack Jeffries Los Angeles, CA KO 5
26 May Klondike Memphis, TN KO 13
4 Jun Billy Stift Chicago, IL D 10
20 Jun Hank Griffin Los Angeles, CA D20
6 Jul Hank Griffin CA D20
3 Sep Mexican Pete Everett Victor, CO W20
21 Oct Frank Childs Los Angeles, CA TK12
31 Oct George Gardner San Francisco, CA W20
4 Dec Fred Russell Los Angeles, CA WF 8

1903
3 Feb Denver Ed Martin Los Angeles, CA W20
(Won Colored Heavyweight Championship;
weights: Johnson 180, Martin 203)
27 Feb Sam McVey Los Angeles, CA W20
-Colored Heavyweight Championship of the World
16 Apr Sandy Ferguson Boston, MA W10
11 May Joe Butler Philadelphia, PA KO3
31 Jul Sandy Ferguson Philadelphia, PA ND6
27 Oct Sam McVey Los Angeles, CA W20
-Colored Heavyweight Championship of the World
11 Dec Sandy Ferguson Colma, CA W20

1904
6 Feb Sandy Ferguson Philadelphia, PA ND6
16 Feb Claude Brooks Philadelphia, PA ND6
22 Apr Sam McVey San Francisco, CA KO20
2 Jun Frank Childs Chicago, IL W6
18 Oct Denver Ed Martin Los Angeles, CA KO2
1 Nov Larry Temple PA ND4

1905
28 Mar Marvin Hart San Francisco, CA L20
25 Apr Jim Jeffords Philadelphia, PA KO4
3 May Black Bill Philadelphia, PA KO4
9 May Joe Jennette Philadelphia, PA ND 3
9 May Walter Johnson Philadelphia, PA KO3
19 May Joe Jennette Philadelphia, PA ND6
26 Jun Jack Monroe Philadelphia, PA ND6
13 Jul Morris Harris Philadelphia, PA KO3
13 Jul Black Bill Philadelphia, PA ND6
18 Jul Sandy Ferguson Chelsea, MA WF7
24 Jul Joe Grim Philadelphia, PA ND6
25 Nov Joe Jennette Philadelphia, PA LDQ2
1 Dec Young Peter Jackson Baltimore, MD W12
2 Dec Joe Jennette Philadelphia, PA ND6

1906
16 Jan Joe Jennette New York, NY ND3
26 Jan Bob Kerns Topeka, KS KO1
14 Mar Joe Jennette Baltimore, MD W15
19 Apr Black Bill Wilkes-Barre, PA KO6
26 Apr Sam Langford Chelsea, MA W15
18 Jun Charlie Haghey Gloucester, PA KO2
3 Sep Billy Dunning Millinocket, ME D10
20 Sep Joe Jennette Philadelphia, PA ND6
8 Nov Jim Jeffords Lancaster, PA ND 6
26 Nov Joe Jennette Portland, ME D10
9 Dec Joe Jennette New York, NY W3

1907
19 Feb Peter Felix Sydney KO1
4 Mar Bill Lang Melbourne, Australia KO9
17 Jul Bob Fitzsimmons Philadelphia, PA KO2
28 Aug Kid Cutler Reading, PA KO1
(Cutler was a protege of John L. Sullivan)
12 Sep Sailor Burke Bridgeport, CT ND6
2 Nov Jim Flynn San Francisco, CA KO11

1908
3 Jan Joe Jennette New York, NY D3
11 Jun Al McNamara Plymouth, ENG Exh 4
31 Jul Ben Taylor Plymouth, ENG KO8
26 Dec Tommy Burns Sydney W 14
(Won World Heavyweight Title)
Bout halted by police, so as per prior agreement, a decision was awarded by referee.

1909
10 Mar Victor McLaglen Vancouver, Canada Exh 6
-- Apr Frank Moran Pittsburgh Exh 4
19 May Philadelphia Jack O'Brien Philadelphia, PA ND6
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
30 Jun Tony Ross Pittsburgh, PA ND6
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
12 Aug Kid Cutler Brooklyn, NY Exh
9 Sep Al Kaufman San Francisco, CA ND10
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
16 Oct Stanley Ketchel Colma, CA KO12
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)

1910
Jul Al Kaufman Reno, NV Exh
4 Jul James J. Jeffries Reno, NV KO15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)

Oct Loses two auto races to Barney Oldfield at Coney Island

24 Nov Johnson receives title belt awarded by
"popular subscription of his friends and admirers"

1911
Jan Marries Etta Duryea
11 Sep Johnson's wife, Etta Duryea, commits suicide
2 Oct Bombadier Billy Wells London, Eng Sched

1912
Mar 8 Frank Hoe Indianapolis, IN EX 4

21 Jun Indicted for smuggling diamond necklace into US

4 Jul Jim Flynn Las Vegas, NM KO 9
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)

11 Jul Opens Cafe de Champion in Chicago
Oct 12 Arrested for violating the "White Slave Traffic Act"
Dec 4 Marries Lucille Cameron

1913
May 14 Convicted of violating the "White Slave Traffic Act"
in Chicago, IL

Jun 4 Sentenced to a term of imprisonment of
1 year and 1 day plus a fine of $1000

mid-June Flees the United States while free pending appeal

Oct "French Federation of Boxing Clubs" strips Johnson of title,
but IBU refuses to do so.

--- -- Urbach Paris, Fr Exh (W 2 falls)
-- wrestling match

Nov 28 Andre Sproul Paris, Fr Exh 2
-This was a match between a boxer (Johnson) and a
wrestler (Sproul); Johndon knocked Sproul out;
The contest turned into a riot

Nov 28 Jimmy Esson Paris, Fr Exh (L 2 falls)
-- wrestling match

Dec 19 "Battling" Jim Johnson Paris, Fr D 10
-Heavyweight Championship of the World;
This bout was scheduled for 20 rounds but
terminated after 10 rounds due to arm injury
to Jack Johnson; first time judges used in
Heavyweight Title Match; maj. draw

1914

Mar 10 G.H. [a law student] Gothenburg, SWE Exh (wrestle)
Mar 10 Taumisto Gothenburg, SWE Exh (wrestle)

Jun 27 Frank Moran Paris W 20
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)

Dec 15 Jack Murray Buenos Aires Exh KO 3

1915
Jan 10 Segundo Guiralechea Buenos Aires Exh KO 1
Jan 10 Enrique Wilkinson Buenos Aires Exh KO 1
Jan 10 Jack Murray Buenos Aires Exh KO 1
Apr Mills, Scott, Bell Havana, Cu Spar (total 8)
Apr 3 Sam McVey Havana, Cu Exh 6
Apr 5 Jess Willard Havana, Cu KO by 26
(Lost World Heavyweight Title)

1916
10 Mar Frank Crozier Madrid W 10
25 Mar Arthur Gruhan Madrid W 10
10 Jul Arthur Cravan Barcelona, Spain KO 6

1918
3 Apr Blink McCloskey Madrid W4

1919
12 Feb Bill Flint Madrid KO 2

NOTE -- Mexico dates/results still under investigation
7 Apr Tom Cowler Mexico City D 10
2 Jun Tom Cowler Mexico City KO 12
4 Jul Paul Sampson Mexico City KO 6
10 Aug Marty Cutler Mexico City KO 4
28 Sep Bob Roper Mexico City W 10

1920
18 Apr Bob Wilson Mexicali, Mexico KO3
21 Apr Ray Neal Tijuana, Mexico Exh 4
17 May George Roberts Tijuana, Mexico KO3

20 Jul Johnson crosses border into United States from Mexico
and surrenders to Federal agents.
He is sent to Leavenworth prison.

25 Nov Frank Owens Leavenworth, KS KO 6
25 Nov "Topeka" Jack Johnson Leavenworth, KS W 5
30 Nov George Owens Leavenworth, KS KO6

1921
15 Apr Jack Townsend Leavenworth, KS KO6
28 May John Allen Leavenworth, KS Exh 2
28 May Joe Boykin Leavenworth, KS KO 5

9 Jul Johnson is released from Levenworth Prison

1923
6 May Francis Lodge Havana, Cu KO 4
20 May Jack Thompson Havana, Cu ND 15
1 Oct Battling Siki Quebec, Canada Exh 6

1924
22 Feb Homer Smith Montreal, Canada W10
--- Divorces Lucille Cameron

1925
Aug Marries Irene Pineau

1926
May 2 Pat Lester Nogales, Mx W 15
May 30 Bob Lawson Juarez, Mx LT 8
Jun Battling Norfolk L 10
Sep 6 Brad Simmons Ponca City, Ok L 10

1927
----- "Big" Bill Hartwell Exh 4

1928
Apr 16 Ed "Bearcat" Wright Topeka, Ks LK 5
May 15 "Big" Bill Hartwell Kansas City, Ks LT 7
----- Isaac "Ike" McFowler Exh 6

1930
----- "Phila." Jack O'Brien Exh 3

1931
Mar 4 Brad Simmons Tulsa, Ok L 10
Apr 28 Brad Simmons Wichita, Ks KO 2
Apr 30 Johnson and Simmons barred from boxing in Topeka, Ks
----- Chief White Horse Exh 3
----- Brad Simmons Tulsa, Ok Exh 3
Jun 11 Dynamite Jackson Los Angeles, Ca Exh 3
Jul 16 Dee Richmond Dishman, Id Exh 3
Jul 18 Floyd Johnson Seattle, WA Exh 4

1932
Nov 29 Dick Anderson Chicago, Il KO 3

1933
Jan 20 Maurice Griselle Paris, Fr Exh 1
Jan 20 Ernst Guehring Paris, Fr Exh 1

1938
Sep 1 Walter Price Boston, Ma LT 7

1944
----- Wilbur DeCora Ida Grove, Ia Exh 2
----- an unnamed opponent Spencer City, Ia Exh 2
----- Henry Neumann Sioux City, Ia Exh 2

1945
27 Nov Joe Jennette New York, NY Exh 3
27 Nov John Ballcort New York, NY Exh 3

==================================================

Quite interesting really. Much research would have to be done to verify this but if taken at face value...

...Johnson didn't actually beat Jim Johnson.

Also if you examine some earlier fights against big opponnents in particular one Sandy Ferguson...



Ferguson was a big, strong fellow who was not smooth and flashy but was durable and capable; He served as a "trial-horse" for many up and coming fighters of the time; He fought anyone who wanted to fight - black or white - and dodged no one

Among those he defeated during his career were Ben Taylor, Yank Kenney, Dick O'Brien, George Byers, Bob Armstrong, Tom Carey, Joe Walcott, Klondike, Charles Haghey, Jim McCormick, Al Kubiak, Jim Barry, Joe Jeannette, and Jeff Madden. He was a White Hope of the teens.

BORN : John H. Ferguson, July 24 1879; Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
DIED : February 26 1919; Providence, Rhode Island

HEIGHT : 6-3 WEIGHT : 200-222 lbs RACE : White

...who he fought twice for a finish but could never knock out. Ferguson took him to 20 rounds.

I am lead to believe that Johnson did not have a serious knockout punch. I also think his bouts with Ferguson were harbringers of things to come. I just don't think he could punch "up".

[chaleyit]

Wildhawk, I am seriously happy my son is no longer boxing. He is training fighters now and I am tickled pink. The last time I saw him box - as I shared on the board two years ago - he got KO's in the first round. He hasn't boxed since. He knows his stuff and he speaks very highly of Langford and feels that he is among histories greatest fighters P4P.

I must point out that Muhammad Ali was only about 23 when he fought Sonny Liston and Ali won. So I don't buy that line about Langford not being fully developed. However, I do think if there were a rematch later things might have gone differently. After all Frazier beat Ali the first time, but didn't beat him since. I do feel that Johnson is being underated on this board. Talk about not fighting quality fighters, put Marciano at the top of that list. But not one would say Rocky was not a great fighter. Granted the lack of quality during Rocky's tenure as champ was not his fault and he certainly didn't dodge anyone. There are, however, those who say he retired prematurly when he noticed the next crop on the horizon. I don't know if that is true or not. Frankly I doubt it, I just think he had the good sense to know when to quit. But he never fought anyone that was of any quality, the quality fighters of his day were over the hill. I doubt that he or Johnson would stand up to many of the greats that followed. I doubt that any of the boxers from Johnson's era would fare well against today's atheletes as the game has changed and techniques have become much more homed. No more so than the sluggers of yesterday, Babe Ruth, Gerig, and Josh Gibson would fare well against this age of specialized relief pitchers and steriod supermen.

I guess this is something that people will have opinions on from now on. Cap does raise some very good points from the vantage point of his soap box. He is obviously very knowlegable when it comes to boxing. You all are. Much more so than me. Hell, I can't name ten fighters that Johnson fought. My grandfather saw him fight in person and he had nothing but praise for Johnson. That is all I can tell you.

[Cap]

The first Johnson-Langford fight was like Oscar De La Hoya stepping in with James Toney when Toney was a 185 lb. cruiserweight and Oscar was still fighting at 154. Who would you pick? Now make Oscar 180 pounds of muscle, give him a heavyweight's punch, greater boxing skills and more experience. I think he takes the present-day Toney. (Not a perfect comparison admittedly, but close enough.)

Johnson was an extremely skilled defensive fighter and an accomplished ring-actor. He made ringside observers believe he was doing a lot more than he was through the use of his mouth. He was likely the first fighter to influence judges and press by talking directly to them. Brilliant move.

His reign as champion was less than stellar. He defended his title against Fireman Jim Flynn (A Burns KO victim), Jim Jeffries (washed-up), Battling Jim Johnson (Jack quit and should have had his title stripped), Stanley Ketchel (middleweight), and a nervous Frank Moran who often performed poorly when the spotlight was on (See Willard fight).

He boxed No Decision fights with journeyman Tony Ross, Al Kaufmann (his sparring partner), and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (a guy Burns beat twice, and who boxed well enough that some papers thought he would have gotten a decision if one were rendered).

By the way, Langford at 23 was good, but within a few short years (and many fights)he became brilliant.