Dream Fight

[chaleyit]

I am sure that I am not the first to post this but here goes. Everyone has a dream fight, that is a fight they wish could be held but cannot for whatever reason. It is usually because the fighters are from two different eras. I think most people would say Ali-Louis or Hagler-Ray Robinson. But those are the obvious choices. What is your all time dream fight that you would love to see. I think aside from the two I mentioned previously;

I would like to see Rocy Marciano and the Ali era George Foreman. Slugger against slugger. Power against power. I think this would be a brutal fight as both men would be thinking "lights out". If it ended early I think it would be Foreman. If it went past six I think it would be Marciano. What do you think? What is your dream fight?

Another fight I would like to see is Larry Holmes and Jack Johnson. I think they were similar in styles in that both are boxers and both relied on hand speed and ring movement. I think Johnson would knock Larry down but not out. I think it would be decided on points with Larry winning by a slim margin.

[mrchallenge]

Henry Armstrong vs. Aaron Pryor, since Pryor was considered to be a modern day version of Armstrong. I like Armstrong in this one.

Foreman vs. Liston, Battle of the heavyweight destroyers. I like Liston.

Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Stanley Ketchell, Battle of the old time middleweight bombers. I like Ruby Robert.

Gerald McClellan vs. Roy Jones, You can blame biased refereeing and a blood clot for this one not happening. I like Jones.

Julian Jackson vs. Rocky Graziano, Two great punchers with suspect chins. It's a pickem from where I stand.

Max Baer vs. Earnie Shavers, battle of the one trick ponies. I like Baer.

Original Joe Walcott vs. Mickey Walker at welterweight, with the winner taking on Tommy Ryan. I like Walker.

Mike McCallum vs. Charlie Burley. Battle of the two most avoided fighters of their time. I like Burley.

Emile Griffith vs. Kid Gavilan at welter. Action packed fight. I like Gavilan.

Archie Moore vs. Bob Foster. THe lightheavyweight KO artists. I like Moore.

Terry McGovern vs. Carlos Zarate. Old time bantam bomber vs. modern bantam bomber. It's a pickem.

And finally, the fantasy fight I'd most like to see. Drum roll please...........

.................


Wladimir Klitschko vs. Michael Grant LOLOLOLOL.

Battle of the superheavyweight flops with no chin and confidence once they lost. I like Wladdy. at least he has an amateur background. Hehehe.

[Mudster]

In answering the Marciano-Foreman fight result, if I remember right, the original Title Bout card game said that Marciano was willing to take 2 or 3 shots to land one of his own. Take 2 or 3 good ones from Foreman, and he won't be around to swing that one punch. Foreman would level him early, probably as quick as he did Frazier. The fight I would have really loved to see would have been a prime Tyson up against a prime Ali or the Hagler-Leonard fight when both fighters weren't already over the hill.

[Cap]

I have to agree on Foreman-Marciano. Foreman just too big. Marciano would have great difficulty reaching Foreman's chin. Marciano had to land many punches against top opponents to get a knockout, much like Frazier (who was not the one-armed fighter many claim). Marciano-Frazier would be a good fight. I'd pick Rocky over Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers. Ali was too fast and elusive for the Brockton Blockbuster. Ali on points.

I'd pick Holmes over Jack Johnson. I think Holmes was similar in style to Harry Wills, and I'd pick Wills over Johnson. Another fight I'd like to make would be Larry Holmes against Lennox Lewis. Holmes would press the action, and I think Lewis would take him out late.

I'd love to see Dempsey against Ali. If Henry Cooper could reach Ali's chin, Jack would've too, and Dempsey wasn't a bleeder. Both in their primes, I'd pick Dempsey to stop Ali. But I'd pick Sam Langford to stop Dempsey. And if Langford entered the ring against Ali, I could see him doing to him what he did to Big George Godfrey and Harry Wills. Ali would move in, thoroughly underestimating the little gnome, and Sam would catch him upside the head with one explosive shot and lay him flat. If they fought a second time, Ali would move more and win with his jab.

Cap

[meade95]

Would love to have saw Tommy Hearns Vs Julian Jackson at Jr. Middle Wt -

Or Hearns Vs Gerald McClellan at MW -


I don't see either of these fights going past 4 rounds -

[chaleyit]

You know Cap, you probably think I would take exception to your prediction of Ali - Dampsy. However, I think of all the oldtimers, Dempsey would have had the best chance against Ali. Particularly the post suspension Ali who was not as fleet afoot. I don't know if you remember but when we were siming and report the results of the TF game, I fought three great Dempsey - Ali fights. The first fight Dempsey was winning until he was disqualified, the next one was a draw and the third Ali won going away. They were great fights. I don't see Dempsey taking Ali out, but I see a great battle. Much like the battles Norton gave Ali.

I think Holmes would have beat Johnson also but I don't think Lewis would get Holmes. It is true that Holmes had chin that was suspect but he had great hand speed and could be illusive. I would definately take Marciano over Norton and Shavers. I don't know about Frazier and Marciano, Frazier didn't fair that well against sluggers. Although Rocky didn't hit as hard as Forman. And you are right about Frazier being more than a one armed fighters. He was one of history's best boxing sluggers. Still Frazier gave up a lot on defense to get to his oppoent. It is true that I think Rocy is over rated but if he hits Frazier enough, Frazier would go.

Mudster you are correct about Marciano taking a lot of blows to get his in. However, Foreman threw a lot of wild shots that might have missed Rocky. If Rocky avoids those shots moving in, he tags Foreman. Of course it just takes one from George. That is why I say if it ends early it is George, if it goes on it is Rocky.

Cap I have to agree with you about Wills over Johnson. Wills get to Johnson and is not mesmerized by his defense nor his antics. Wills is one of boxing most under rated fighters in my opinion.

Wladimir Klitschko vs. Michael Grant!!!! I'm splitting my side here Mrchallenge. How did you manage to come up with that match. Oh my God!!!! I think Jones takes McCallum without too much of a problem. I agree that Liston would take Foreman. Foreman in my view did not have the skills to take on a Liston. That hot Liston Jab would have eaten George alive. I take Shavers over Baer but it could go either way. Why do you call them trick ponies? I think Walker would have devastated Jersey Joe, and then taken out Ryan also. Walker was a devastating fighter if I remember correctly. I agree with most of you calls.

[mrchallenge]

Chaleyit, I was talking about Original Joe Walcott, not Jersey Joe. Jersey Joe was a 195 pound heavyweight who would have smashed Walker's face in within a round or two. LOL

Frazier vs. Marciano, Frazier was 20 pounds bigger and stronger, and more athletic and didn't cut as easily. But Marciano had a better chin, was a better two fisted puncher, and had slightly better defense. It's a pickem.

I call Baer and Shavers one trick ponies cause all they had was a smashing right hand and not much else. At least Baer had a chin though. I guess you could add Ingemar Johannson to the mix, another one trick pony.

I love Wills, but I don't know if he could take a prime Johnson. He lost to a 2 of his first 4 to Langford and also lost to McVey and drew with Jeanette when those 3 guys were past their primes. Wills than got better and dominated those guys after their skills degenerated even more. I would slightly favor Johnson. 6 to 5 odds perhaps. hehe.

How about McClellan vs. Tony Zale and Rodriguo Valdez? I think he loses to both in great close battles. I'm a big McClellan fan by the way.

Michael Grant and Wladdy would be the biggest and most exciting heavyweight prize fight of all time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that Dempsey had the best chance to upset Ali. But Ali would find a way to come through.

How about Dempsey and Louis vs. a prime Tyson? I love Tyson, but I'm afraid that poor Tyson probably gets tortured by both but he's got a punchers chance and makes things interesting in the first few rounds at least.

How about James Jeffries? He does well against sluggers like Frazier, Marciano and Tyson, and Foreman. (Doesn't beat them all but makes it close). But loses to boxers like Ali, Tunney and Charles. Heck, he was outboxed for 22 and a half rounds by Corbett.

This is a fun topic lets keep it going guys!!

[meade95]

Originally Posted by chaleyit

I think Jones takes McCallum without too much of a problem.

I have to disagree here - You must not have seen McCallum in his prime - A prime McCallum would give Roy all he wanted and more - at MW I'd take McCallum by late rd KO -

[djday45]

Originally Posted by meade95

I have to disagree here - You must not have seen McCallum in his prime - A prime McCallum would give Roy all he wanted and more - at MW I'd take McCallum by late rd KO -

I would tend to disagree McCallum was at his best as a junior middle. as a middleweight he lost some speed making fast boxers such as Kalambay a problem for him.
I think Jones would outpoint him fairly comfortably in a very dull fight.

rgds
Dean

[CONN CHRIS]

I would love to see Featherweights Battalino and Pep go at it. It might be a bad matchup of styles (two defensive boxers, although Battalino probably had more power of the two) but as a Connecticut resident, it would be a dream to see the two Hartford boys that dominated the division for 30 or so years go at it.

[mrchallenge]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I would love to see Featherweights Battalino and Pep go at it. It might be a bad matchup of styles (two defensive boxers, although Battalino probably had more power of the two) but as a Connecticut resident, it would be a dream to see the two Hartford boys that dominated the division for 30 or so years go at it.

Was Battalino a defensive wizard like Pep? From what I've read about him, he was more of a crafty, scrappy, pressure fighter( Kind of like Lou Ambers or Fritzie Zivic). I've never seen film of him, so you probably know better than I.

[Bam Bam]

how bout...Aaron Pryor vs Ray Leonard

[CONN CHRIS]

I have never seen film of Battalino either, but I have never heard of him described as a defensive wizzard. I have however heard him described as a fairly light hitter. I know more about Pep because my Grandfather was such a huge fan of his.

A funny aside: When I was 21 and not that knowledgable about boxing (not that I am now), I was a softball umpire in the summers to earn money for school. I got the chance to work a charity game with Eddie Fainer (The King and His Court) which was great fun. But the real treat was that Willie was the local star for the event. I brought my Grandfather because I was pretty sure that I could get him on the field to talk with Pep. As luck would have it, the three of us along with Sid Conn (local businessman and promoter of the event) were all sitting on a bench before the game started. When there was a lull in the conversation between my Grandfather and Pep, I asked a dumb question born out of my ignorance. I asked Willie if he had ever fought Battalino. (I didn't realize at the time that their careers missed each other by the better part of a decade.) Both he and Grampy started laughing. Then he said the obvious "Battalino was before my time." He paused, then said "Besides who would pay to see a couple of guys trying not to get hit all night" Well, he and my grandfather laughed hard at that and then chatted a few more minutes and I just kept my dumb mouth shut after that. I guess that's where my impression of Battalino as a defensive guy came from. Given that it comes from a wise crack made after a dumb question, I wouldn't lend it much weight.

[Bonedwarf]

Am I the only one thinking "Hmm... I should sim these!"?

[shane6969]

A dream fight that I'd love to see, would be between arguably Australia's 2 best MW's ever in Les Darcy vs Dave Sands. Both lads had their lives tragically cut short by the grim reaper, and neither boxer never really reached their prime. My prediction would be a very close decision win to Darcy, however I'd personally prefer to see a draw between them. Also, I'd like to see either of these boys in against Ambrose Palmer, again they would be good fights.

Cheers,

Shane.

[chaleyit]

Shane I don't think it would be close at all, I think Darcy would take that fight going away.

Chris wouldn't a Battalino and Pep matchup run the risk of becoming what the TB commentary calls a "chess match". Do you think they would be able to really mix it up since both were good defensive fighters? Just asking not really predicting.

Hey Bonedwarf, I will be simming a lot of these fights, some of them I already have.

Mead, call me nuts but I just don't see Jones being defeat by McCallum. Jones is too skilled in my opinion.

Bam Bam I think Ray Leaonard was another of those over rated fighters. He was flashy and had charisma but I do not really see him as being all that great a fighter. Still, a fight with Pryor would be interesting. But If I recall didn't Pryor fight as a junior Welter, and Leonard was a Welter/Middle. While I do not pick Leonard as great fighter, I do pick him as a very good fighter. Leonard would win a decision if he could stay away from Pyror's power.

Hey MrChallenge, whooops wrong Joe, pardon my Oh Duh :-)

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by chaleyit

Chris wouldn't a Battalino and Pep matchup run the risk of becoming what the TB commentary calls a "chess match". Do you think they would be able to really mix it up since both were good defensive fighters? Just asking not really predicting.

I don't know how it would play out, I actualy know very little about Battalino other than folks around here frequently talk about this as one of those "what-if" fights.

Mr Challenge. From the tapes that I have seen of Pep, he was not what I would have expected him to be. Yes, "defensive Wizzard" fits, but he seemed to be more in his opponent's face than I would have guesed. "Scrappy and presure" as you use for Battalino would have been words I would use for Pep, although maybe "presure" would be a bit strong. Anyway, in watching Pep, it seemed to me that he was right in front his opponent more than I would have immagined - must have been REAL frustrating if that was the norm in his bouts. Can you imagine having a guy you can barely hit AND he's right there in front of you much of the time?

[Bam Bam]

Originally Posted by chaleyit

Bam Bam I think Ray Leaonard was another of those over rated fighters. He was flashy and had charisma but I do not really see him as being all that great a fighter. Still, a fight with Pryor would be interesting. But If I recall didn't Pryor fight as a junior Welter, and Leonard was a Welter/Middle. While I do not pick Leonard as great fighter, I do pick him as a very good fighter. Leonard would win a decision if he could stay away from Pyror's power.

Yea you're right, Ray fought as a welt, then as a middleweight, Pryor was a light welter. If you remember though, this fight was in the works, and might have been made if it wasn't for Leonards' eye problem. At the time, the two were close enough in weight to make it happen.

I'm not so sure Leonard would have won this. In his prime "The Hawk" was an unstoppable compu-box dream. I kinda like Pryor to win here...

[mrchallenge]

Leonard vs. Pryor sounds alot to me like a poor (okay, maybe reasonably wealthy) man's version of Robinson and Armstrong.

In a pound for pound sense Pryor may well have been the better fighter, but I think Leonard was to big. Pryor could make 135 if he wanted to. Beating up on on an aging ex featherweight like Arguello is a little different from the 147 pound naturally bigger, faster Leonard.

Chris Conn, you're absolutely right. Pep was actually a very aggressive who through alotta punches, which made his defensive ability seem even more remarkable. But didn't Pep win a round without throwing a punch too? I guess Pep could do it all, he could stand in front of an opponent and make him miss, or he can use his legs more and dance around.

I saw one of the fights with Saddler (who strikes as a featherweight hybrid of George Foreman and Bob Foster), and he was giving Saddler a pasting and Saddler was probably glad that Pep wasn't a hard puncher. Saddler's power and physical strength took over in the 2nd half though and wore Pep down. Then Pep quit because he injured his arm.

Some other dream fights I'd like to see.......

1. Norton vs. Frazier, I like Frazier
2. Primo Carnera vs. Jess Willard, I like Willard
3. Charlie Burley vs. all the big names who avoided him.
4. LaMotta vs. Cerdan II, pickem
5. Marciano sticking around a little longer to take on Patterson.
6. Monzon vs. Hagler, I slightly favor the Argentinean.
7. Gene Tunney vs. Ezzard Charles, I like Ez
8. McCallum vs. any of the big names of the 80's who didn't wanna fight him.
9. Salvador Sanchez vs. Eusebio Pedroza and then moving up to 130 and fighting a young JC Chavez. Sanchez beats Pedroza but loses to JC superstar.
10. Jeff Chandler vs. Lupe Pintor. I like Joltin Jeff.
11. Tyrone Everett vs. Arguello at 130. Arguello by a hair.
12. Armstrong vs. Saddler at 126. Could be a smaller version of Foreman Frazier. I like Armstrong.
13. Lightweight Shane Mosley vs. Lightweight Floyd. I like Mosley.
14. Benny Leonard vs. Duran. I like Duran.
15. Captain Kirk vs. Captain Picard. Hehehe. Just making sure that everyone is still paying attention.
16. Darth Vader vs. Yoda

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by mrchallenge

But didn't Pep win a round without throwing a punch too?

16. Darth Vader vs. Yoda

That's what a lot of people thought, including my grandfather and in-turn, me. Jofre put that myth to bed in another thread a while back, but the fact that so many were willing to believe it possible says a heck of a lot about Pep.

And Yoda - little guy with great footwork, the plodding Vader was simply no match.