Jimmy Barry Missing Opponents Fighter Pack

[djday45]

I have just sent to Gunsmoke at Cornerwork the finished Jimmy Barry fighter pack.

This consists of 60 fighters mainly Bantams but also a few scattered Feathers and Lights from the late 1880's to early 1900's.

Both Barry and Harry Harris are also included. I rated these guys yonks ago on Cornerwork so it was nice to get the pack done and get them all into one place.

If you have not heard of Barry check out his articles at cyber boxing zone.


Next up is Nonpareil Jack Dempsey who again I rated a long time ago and a few of his more illustrious opponents but this time will do his full career.

The aim is to run through all the early pre 1900 champs with the occasional break for other fun stuff like the European Title.

rgds
Dean

[mh2365]

Good work dean ... Barry and his opponents will be added in 1908 .... sometimes I curse you though considering I have 553 fighters in my universe now!!!! LOL

[swampdragon]

Great work. Looking forward to Dempsey, as that will fill out my middleweight division very nicely. Torpedo Billy Murphy would be an interesting one to try. He fought about a million fights in New Zealand, Australia, and the US starting in 1882.

[mh2365]

Just went through all the fighters ... once again great job. Now I know these ratings are completely subjective, with that said here are a few changes I made

Jimmy Anthony - lowered from a 6 to a 2. His record was 0-2-2. Only other fighter in the game he fought was Maxey Haugh who I rated a 2.

John Connors - dropped from an 8 to a 6. 1-2-2, win over an unknown, loss to barry and Leon (8) draw with flanagan (6)

Walter Crout - 8 to a 4. 0-2 Knocked out by Palmer (5), killed by Barry

Barney McCall - 4 to a 3. 0-5-1 every loss to a 4 rated fighter except Barry, all fights were close though so I'd keep him a 3.

Joe McGrath - 6 to a 3. 0-2, knocked out by plimmer and barry ... if he'd gone the distance with both then maybe a 6.

Frank Murphy - 7 to a 4. 0-1-2 Draw with Torpedo Murphy (4) and Ike Weir who I rated a 4

also while looking at these guys I saw Young Mississippi who probabley should be rated. Boxrec #81375 record 46-43-12

Once again I am not bashing your work at all .... it's all subjective. You are doing what I can't or won't because of time limitations, so I don't want you to take it the wrong way!!!

[djday45]

Pls remember before changing the ratings they primarily work in conjunction with Jimmy Barry. Also the boxrec records are very incomplete and many of the ratings are based on articles describing Barry's career.

Barry is without doubt one of the greatest Bantams who ever lived and its very easy to knock his opposition now as so little is known about them.

This of course applies two all fighters from the time period. By all means feel free to change whatever you want just dont base the whole rating on the boxrec incomplete record.

rgds
Dean

[djday45]

Also while i remember lol, dont place too much store into the overall rating of a fighter.
These can be very misleading. By far the most important ratings in the game are the control factors, the punches landed/counterpunches and defense.

Its how these attributes interrelate which is vital and to lesser extent power/chin.

Many of those guys you mentioned if you look closely at the attributes are very beatable. But they have good chins or decent power which bumps up their rating.

The overall rating is a good rough guide to a fighter but only that.

rgds
Dean

[mh2365]

This is why I don't make fighters LOL

[swampdragon]

I think Dean's ratings generally inflate the abilities of the fighters as compared to the original ratings, and I think it's a good decision, because otherwise there's not enough difference between the plugs and the contenders. It does mean that you get better results when his fighters are fighting each other as opposed to being mixed in the general gene pool. Fortunately, he's rated enough fighters in the last year that about 70% of my entire 1880s universe is made up of his fighters, maybe more.

[CONN CHRIS]

It's all subjective, even with extensive testing because the results you are looking for are also subjective. I find ratings from everyone that I dissagree with here and there, even the Trunzo's from time-to-time. My own ratings, I think, tend to under value the fighters a bit.

It's always caveat emptor when downloading ratings. That said, I GREATLY enjoy the efforts of everyone here and download everything. I absolutely applaude each and every person who posts ratings here and hope that they all will continue. The wonderful thing about this game is that we each have our own little universes and if someone's rating of a particular fighter is off by your or my standards, we can tweek it on our end. I am very greatful that so many of you do the bulk of the work in getting a rating in place. I use most as they come, but when one strikes me as being in need of some tweeking, it is great to be able to start with someone else's work rather than the ground floor.

[CONN CHRIS]

As an example of the subjectiveness, and this is from memory so don't hold me to it:

I rated Bert Gilroy this morning. He beat Sadd twice, drew with him once. He was stopped (middle rounds I think) once by Mills. There were also 4-6 other fighters that I was able to use in testing.

Now, in testing, I am not looking for him to beat Sadd by decision 65 times and draw 35 over 100 bouts. I (subjectively) am looking for him to beat Sadd 60-70 times with 15 or so stoppages, I would expect to see 5-10 draws and I would expect Sadd to out point him for the balance.

On the other hand, I am not looking for 100 KOs or TKOs to Mills. I would expect 80 - 85 Mills wins with maybe 60 - 65 stoppages, a few draws and I would expect Gilroy to stop Mills on occasion and even steal a few decisions.

The problem is, if I make him do what I want against Mills, Gilroy will be 100-0 against Sadd (other than the occational cut stoppage). And, if I make do what I want against Sadd, Gilroy will never come close to a win against Mills.

So, what I do, (when I have more then two fighters to test against) is pick one opponent (maybe two) that I absolutely have to see a given result with. Then just tweak until I have the rest with deviations from what I expect that I can live with.

I start by setting HP/3pt punches/endurane/chin based on the Trunzo formula and my eyeballing - I generaly do not touch those numbers again. Then I go through the above process to get all the other numbers set.

There may be better ways to do it, but that is mine. It is subjective, and as I mentioned, I think that I can tend to undervalue abilities a bit.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

It's all subjective, even with extensive testing because the results you are looking for are also subjective. I find ratings from everyone that I dissagree with here and there, even the Trunzo's from time-to-time. My own ratings, I think, tend to under value the fighters a bit.

It's always caveat emptor when downloading ratings. That said, I GREATLY enjoy the efforts of everyone here and download everything. I absolutely applaude each and every person who posts ratings here and hope that they all will continue. The wonderful thing about this game is that we each have our own little universes and if someone's rating of a particular fighter is off by your or my standards, we can tweek it on our end. I am very greatful that so many of you do the bulk of the work in getting a rating in place. I use most as they come, but when one strikes me as being in need of some tweeking, it is great to be able to start with someone else's work rather than the ground floor.

Ditto. I rarely rate fighters, and really appreciate the work everyone does. I'm up over 6000 of them now, and can go much higher as my replay moves forward.

[sabotai]

djday,

Are there any websites you recommend to learn about the old-time fighters. I'd like to rate some of the pre-1900 fighters myself, but like you said, boxrec is pretty incomplete when it comes to a lot of fighters back then.

[SAL]

Great work Dean.

Just finished looking through your Barry pack. Got them added to my universe. I appreciate your work and effort in these fighter packs.

Scot