Still a board gamer, but I love this place!

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Dear Title Bout game fans,
The last week has been particularly exciting for me, and this website is the reason why. I finally landed in the perfect spot.
For many years, I was a fanatical Title Bout board gamer, having bought the first edition; the Holmes-Norton fight on the box cover had only happened months earlier. I played, and played, and played. I played baseball, football, hockey and basketball board games, but this one I identified with the most. Unfortunately, I temporarily drifted away from this interest in the last throes of my marriage to a fiery redheaded woman from Dallas(No, the gameplaying wasn't the problem). Now, my Title Bout board game is in her garage. I don't have a computer.
One area of boxing history I was very interested in was the White Hope Era, the period between 1910-1915, when racist attitudes around the country demanded that Jack Johnson somehow be removed from the Heavyweight championship. Johnson was very opinionated, intelligent, and worst of all, by 1910, he had white wives. All this was unacceptable in 1908, when he clobbered Tommy Burns, to win the title. He had that unforgiveable blackness. They hunted all over the country to find some big galoot that could beat Johnson, and finally, as Johnsons career was fading, they did. (I honestly don't severely condemn these White Hope heavyweights; they made money being promoted as they did, and some even helped train Black Heavyweights, and visa verse. I think the racial fever in the actual boxing promotions has been somewhat overplayed. They were promoted simply as heavyweights, in the post 1911 New York Times, at least. Langford, Jeanette, and McVey were covered much the same as contemporary white heavyweights were. In fact, amazingly, Sam Langford was even given serious consideration to fight Gunboat Smith for the White Hope Title, in 1914! Sam Langford, White Hope Champion! It almost came off. No one at the time thought twice about it. Read the old newspaper microfilms, and see if I'm lying.
As a kid, I had read an account of Luther McCarty's tragic career, and it stuck with me. The picture of McCarty and Pelkey posing minutes before McCarty died was eerie, but even eerier was the long distance shot of Pelky standing over the stricken McCarty. A ray of sunlight had shone through the roof of the Calgary arena, resting its edge on McCarty's body. Witnesses said the ten seconds when McCarty was counted out was the only moment the sun came out, on an otherwise cloudy day.
I love reading, and studying about this period in boxing history, but mostly I enjoy PLAYING Title Bout, with those old fighters, black and white. In the 1980's a miracle happened, and the Avalon Hill magazine put out a set of ten White Hope cards. How could this be? I thought only I cared about these old duffers! Well, I started playing, substituting White Hope Jess Willard's already created card for Charley Weinert's, who didn't really strike me as a true "White Hope", with his career peaking after May, 1915.(Weinert will never be able to get back in now, because I lost his card)
My interest in this period was so great, I compiled a list of the top fifty White Hopes in 1912, along with Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Battling Jim Johnson, and few other black heavyweights from 1912(1912 I felt was the best crossroad between early and late significant White Hopes, and the Big Four black heivyweights were all in their prime. It was almost perfect. Plus, I didn't have to guess at McCarty's potential; I knew what he could do in 1912; he lost close newspaper decisions to both Jess Willard and Jim Stewart that year, but he was coming on, at only 20 years old). I computed Title Bout boxing ratings for every one of these 50 White Hopes and black heavyweights, along with their hometowns and 1912 fighting weights. The ratings include control, endurance, power, 3 vs 2 power, and ability to take a punch. I did default on punching preferences; I made a generic allotment between jab tendencies, left hooks, etc, except for the already carded fighters. I think these homemade cards give a pretty good gauge of each fighters skills. I have every New York Times report on any bout between heavyweights from 1910-1916, and believe me, there were many. Baseball, horse racing and boxing were the big three, then. Those ratings, and made up cards are inside a box, inside a garage, in Texas, 1,800 miles away.(I hope the cockroaches haven't destroyed Bill Lang's ratings, a distinct possibilty.) Also in the box is my filecard 5 round per action card stack.
I lost interest in the expanded list of fighters, simply because I didn't know what so many of those old timers looked like. But now, the Title Bout missing photo thread is like a second miracle to me. Now, only Sailor White , Soldier Delaney, Jack McFarland, Tim Logan, Jim Barry(heavyweight),Jeff Madden, Charley Miller, Sailor Fred Fritts, Fred McKay, Bob Williams, Dan Daily(Daly), and a couple others are unseen. I'm interested in that expanded group again!
A long post, but an enthusiastic one. For thos who don't get into these novel size posts, apologies. You probably didn't read this far, though. It's nice to know other guys were enjoying the same exact board game stuff I was enjoying. Thanks, Reid

[swampdragon]

I'd really encourage you to pick up this game. The old board game, as good as it was, is not the equal of TBCB. Just the sheer number of fighters available, the photos, etc. set the game apart. Recordkeeping is done for you. There are thousands more fighters available for download from every period back to the days of John L. Sullivan and even some of his predecessors. You will get far more than your money's worth. $24.95 is one of the best bargains in hours of enjoyment per dollar you'll ever find. Take the plunge.

[LeeSkye]

Welcome aboard. A number of us still have the old Title Bout board games and recall the same thing-spending long hours replaying and setting up a boxing world.

ps. Interesting you mention McCarty as he is presently the champ in my universe.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I'd really encourage you to pick up this game. The old board game, as good as it was, is not the equal of TBCB. Just the sheer number of fighters available, the photos, etc. set the game apart. Recordkeeping is done for you. There are thousands more fighters available for download from every period back to the days of John L. Sullivan and even some of his predecessors. You will get far more than your money's worth. $24.95 is one of the best bargains in hours of enjoyment per dollar you'll ever find. Take the plunge.

Absolutely no doubt about it!

[Ian Lord]

Hi Steamboat, and welcome. I totaly agree with what the others say. Up until October I was still playing the Title Bout board game, [ and Lambourne Games Championship Boxing to a lesser extent], then I tok the plunge and bought TBCB, and I totally fell in love with the game. I haven't looked back since.

P.S. Which hockey board game is it that you play?

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Ian Lord

P.S. Which hockey board game is it that you play?

I used strat-o-matic's version - I used to keep absurdly detailed records and I was forever reviewing the validity of my +/- numbers. So glad that I gave that up I have to admit that I did think about resurecting it when I found the magic of lotus 1-2-3.

[bear]

I've Been there too. I blame the Trunzo's Avalon Hill Title Bout board game for really jump-starting a now, near 30 year old compulsive interest in boxing history and records. I also have the old Championship Boxing Game, Data Boxing, and the APBA boxing card game. (Have a fondness for APBA sports games dating back to my childhood.) When I upgraded my home PC late last year the only game I picked up was this one. It is wonderful, it would still be a bargain at twice the price. Prior to that I had been a long-time lurker on this forum. The willingness of the members to help one another, and to share is even more priceless. Now that I've gotten the game I am pleased that I can get more involved here too.

Bear

Originally Posted by Ian Lord

Hi Steamboat, and welcome. I totaly agree with what the others say. Up until October I was still playing the Title Bout board game, [ and Lambourne Games Championship Boxing to a lesser extent], then I tok the plunge and bought TBCB, and I totally fell in love with the game. I haven't looked back since.

P.S. Which hockey board game is it that you play?

[steamboat brand, palooka]

I play Strat-O-Matic Hockey, also. I am playing 1955-56 now. (Those defensemen don't shoot NEARLY enough, in that game).
I know you guys mean well, but I don't have a computer now, and I am flat broke, so computer gaming is not an option for me. There is no way I'm going to get any thrills by playing a game here at the library. If I ever did that, everyone would watch some guy jumping to his feet, making sudden shrieks, and moans, and wonder what the true story was.
I love that old Title Bout board game, and I'll be sending for it soon. I'm sure computer gaming is the way to go, ultimately, but if I never get a computer, I'll be happy with my cards, homemade action deck, chart board, and that little drawing of those two boxers going at it, with tan background, and black outlines.

[mh2365]

I ended up getting my first computer 7 years ago at a rent-a-center ... way over priced but with my crappy credit it was the only way to go ... now prices have dropped so much that it doesn't take much to buy a new one.

[crusadecat]

Yeah i can really relate to all the stories here. I got hooked on Title Bout Board Game when i was about 9 reading those bios and interesting names like Battling Nelson and Battling Siki , Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom ect. made me wonder who they were and in some cases the ammount of fights they fought!
I was a APBA then Strat O Matic Fanatic. Kept strict notes save Fielding Pct. took way too long to keep up with that. I even made cards for my Bas-ket game. I would still play the occasional card over the years into college but really rediscovered the passion when doing a yahoo search for the game , I saw the Trunzos were making a computer game version (the first one, and i've been back on board ever since. I think this group is one of the most tight knit and very little bashing occurs here Thank God. Maybe its because boxing is such a niche sport we know we are like the last of the Mohicans.

[Big Bill Zahn]

The PC game lets you do stuff you just wouldn't have time to do with the board game....but, there is nothiing like flipping the cards and seeing where it goes. I played Titlebout with my stepson for years and years. When I was teaching him the rules he said, "Is that all you do....how dumb." After the first fight, he was hooked bigtime...Let's play again.

And is wasn't just for the attention..no Monopoly, No Risk....I get home from work and the game was set up....cards shuffled...and the score pad filled out.

Thanks you Tom and Jim for memories I'll cherrish..for ever.

[mh2365]

My kid said the same thing about Strat-o-matic baseball ... he said that game seems lame, then he played it and now he'd be the first to sign up for a league.

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Just for fun,and without my homemade ratings(which I transferred to homemade cards) in front of me, not having seen these ratings in several years, having forgotten whether Sailor White beat Tim Logan, or if Tim Logan beat Sailor White, I will now attempt the amazing! I will now attempt the incredible! I will now attempt to RANK the White Hopes from 1912! (Not their rankings overall, but my own rankings for the year 1912) Yes, a few may have fallen though the cracks of time, and through the cracks in my memory, but I believe I have corraled almost all, and have placed them in their proper stable. Now, for the first time! (in 2005, anyway).. And With Otto Floto's approval, I give you- THE 2005 1912 WHITE HOPE RANKINGS!!!Come one, Come all!

First of all, I would place
1.Jack Johnson
2.Sam Langford
3.Joe Jeanette
4.Sam McVey
(Also, Battling Jim Johnson at or near the top of the White Hopes)

1912 White Hopes
Group A
1.Gunboat Smith(tough, a scrapper)
2.Luther McCarty(still improving; lost two close newspaper decisions)
3.Jess Willard
Group B
4.Carl Morris(worse than the best-better than the rest)
5.Jim Coffey(ultimately better than Morris, but a novice in 1912)
6.Frank Moran(tough, but beatable)
7.Battling Levinsky(beat the big guys)

Group C
8.Bombardier Wells. He's interesting. Overall skills, number 1 of any White Hope, 1912, except for his jaw, which may have been weaker than Al Benedicts, if that was possible.(Here is where I had my biggest problem with Avalon Hill's magazine's ratings. They had Wells with only 5 power, 8/8 control, and NO 3's, in his power punching. They had him as 7-3-8, for taking a punch, and I liked that, because he had a glass jaw bigtime. I raised his punching power all the way up to 8, and I raised his control to 10/10, to compensate the absence of 3s.
Wells was KO'd by Al Palzer 1912(!)rd 3, Gunboat Smith,1912 rd 2, Frank Moran 1915 rd 10, and Georges Carpentier 1913 rd 4, but in every one one of these bouts, he hurt his opponent first. Smith went down. Carpentier went down. Palzer went down. Everyone marveled at his skills, and Gunboat Smith mentions them, in "In this Corner..." No jaw, at all, though, and he couldn't take a stomach punch. If your five year old niece hit him solid, he'd probably run off crying.
9.Jim Stewart(Outpointed Luther McCarty)
10.Arthur Pelky
11.Porky Flynn
12.Tom "Bearcat" McMahon
13.Jack Geyer
14.Fireman Jim Flynn
15.Al Kubiak
16.Al Palzer
17.Tom Cowler
18.Jim Savage
19. Boer Rodel(he was touted as a hero in the Boer War, but he was 10 years old at the time)
20.Tony Ross
21.Jack "Twin " Sullivan
22.Charley Horn
23. Bill Lang
24.Jim Barry
25.Tom Kennedy
26.Sandy Ferguson
27.Soldier Kearns
28.Al Kaufman

Group D
29.Charley Miller
30.Dan Daily
31.Sailor Fritts
32.Jack Lester
33.Joe Cox(didn't actually fight in 1912)

Group E
34.Fred McKay
35.Tim Logan
36.Sailor White
37.Andy Morris
38.Colin Bell
39.P.O. Curran(Most of the British Empire heavys are hard to figure, because there was little interplay between American heavies. I felt most comfortable putting these guys in this group)
40.Ian Hague
41.Gunner Moir
42.Fred Storbeck

Group F("Cauliflower McPug"; actually, you'd be able to include a couple of earlier groupings here, too)
43.Soldier Delaney
44.Jack McFarland
45.Al Benedict
46.Jack Reed
47.Al Williams
48.Jeff Madden
49.Al McCloskey(He may have been in my 1913 bunch, instead)
50.Bob Williams, the "The Masked Marvel". Masked Marvel, indeed! This guy was BAD!

There ya' are. I'm sure I forgot someone from my list, and I'm also sure I forgot that "this guy beat that guy, so how can I place him ahead?", but, overall, I believe this is a fairly reasonable review of the skills of the 1912 White Hopes. Al Reich, Fred Fulton, Charley Weinert, Jack Dillon the Giant Killer,Georges Carpentier(another giant killer)and a few other biggies came in the following years, so I left them out. Luther McCarty, in one years time would almost definately have been rated at the very top of these White Hopes, but we'll never know absolutely. We know that he was tough, but still beatable in 1912, at least until the very end of the year.
I ranked these guys almost exclusively from New York Times fight reports(And about thirty times, the London Times), and though they included a surprisingly large percentage of these guys actual fights, they didn't include them all, so I'm sure some guys lost to guys I thought they would beat, in little towns, here and there. But with my clippings of the fights, I nailed a lot of this period. Thanks.
p.s. British Empire folks,and veterans of the Boer war-Honestly, I don't remember now whether P.O. Curran was better than Gunner Moir, Ian hague, or Colin Bell, but I DID, I promise.(I seem to remember Bell being the smoothest of these)

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Good Lord! I completely forgot George "One Round" Davis, 185 pounder, out of Buffalo! Throw him in at the top of group D. "One Round" was like a poor man's(my?)Bombardier Wells; decent skills, but a glass jaw. He got his nickname at the start of his career, likely for his offensive skills, but he would have probably have gotten the same nickname later anyway, for his self-defeating horizontal tendencies. Georges frequent visits to the canvases of numerous boxing rings all through the Northeast proved fatally counter-productive in the prize ring. They boldly spelled out the end of One Round Davis' meager title aspirations. George "One Round" Davis, footnote in boxing history.