White Hope Era Heavyweight ratings.

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Thanks to my fantastically wonderful son(he wants $50 from everyone here, by the way)I have my ratings. Here's what I came up with years ago. I have faith in my 20 year ago knowledge of these guys, but some may think it's wacky. I do not have punches landed, and Punch Value is the amount of 3 point punches on a card.
Here goes, with hometown. Weights I'll get tonight. I'll do Tom Cowler and Charley Horn soon. The top fifty heavyweights, 1911-1915(Probably should have more black heavyweights[I'll identify as BH] than seven)
Name Hometown cf hp/ki kd1 kd2 kor tko cuts agg end def punch value
Porky Flynn Boston 8/9 6/4 3 3 4 2 5/5 8 90 +1 10
Andy Morris Boston 7/8 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/5 8 85 +3 10
Jack Sullivan Boston 9/9 6/4 3 3 4 3 5/6 7 85 E 10
Sandy Ferguson Boston 8/8 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/5 7 85 +2 10
Sam Langford(BH) Boston11/11 10/8 1 3 2 3 6/3 8 95 -4 55
Arthur Pelky Chicopee 7/8 7/5 5 3 6 3 5/3 7 80 +3 20
One Round Davis Buffalo8/8 8/6 6 3 7 3 5/5 8 85 +2 20
Soldier Delaney N.Y.C. 7/7 6/4 6 3 7 3 5/6 7 80 +4 10
Tom Kennedy NYC 7/8 6/4 4 3 5 3 5/6 7 80 +3 10
Sailor Fritts Brooklyn 7/8 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/5 7 80 +3 10
Jim Stewart Brooklyn 8/8 6/4 4 3 5 3 5/5 7 85 +2 10
Soldier Kearns Brklyn. 7/7 8/6 4 3 5 3 5/6 8 85 +4 20
Al Reich NYC 7/8 8/6 4 3 5 3 5/5 7 80 +3 20
Al Benedict Brooklyn 7/7 6/4 6 3 7 3 5/5 7 80 +4 10
Charley Weinert Newark 9/9 6/4 3 3 4 2 6/3 7 90 E 10
Sailor White Newark 7/7 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/5 8 80 +4 10
Jim Savage Orange, N.J.8/8 7/5 4 3 5 3 5/5 7 85 +2 20
Joe Jeanette(BH)Hoboken10/11 9/7 1 3 2 1 5/2 9 110 -3 40
Battling Levinsky Phila. 9/9 6/4 2 3 3 2 5/3 7 95 E 10
Tim Logan Philadelphia 7/7 6/4 6 3 7 3 5/5 7 80 +4 10
Battling Jim Johnson Phi.(BH)9/9 8/6 2 3 3 2 5/5 7 85 E 30
Frank Moran Pittsburgh 8/8 7/5 3 3 4 3 5/5 7 95 +2 20
Tom McMahon Pitts. 8/9 6/4 3 3 4 2 5/5 7 85 +1 10
Dan Daily Williamsport, Pa.7/7 7/5 4 3 5 3 5/5 8 85 +4 20
Tony Ross New Castle, Pa.8/8 6/4 4 3 5 3 5/5 8 85 +2 20
Al Kubiak Michigan 8/8 7/5 4 3 5 3 5/5 7 85 +2 20
Luther McCarty Springfield,Mo.9/9 9/7 1 3 2 2 5/5 9 95 E 35
Jim Barry Chicago 7/8 7/5 4 3 5 2 5/5 7 80 +3 20
Jack McFarland Chicago 7/8 6/4 6 3 7 3 5/5 7 80 +3 10
Jeff Clarke(BH)Joplin, Mo. 9/9 6/4 2 3 3 2 5/4 7 90 E 20
Al Palzer Ossian, Iowa 7/7 8/6 5 3 6 2 5/4 7 80 +4 20
Jess Willard Pottowatamie, Ks.8/9 8/6 2 3 3 2 5/5 7 90 +1 20
Carl Morris Sapulpa, Okla. 8/8 7/5 3 3 4 2 5/4 7 95 +2 20
Jim Flynn Pueblo, Colo. 7/8 7/5 4 3 5 3 5/7 8 85 +3 20
Jack Geyer Denver 8/8 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/6 7 80 +2 10
Harry Wills(BH)New Orleans 10/10 8/6 2 3 3 2 6/3 9 95 -2 40
Tom McCarty San Francisco 8/9 7/5 4 3 5 2 5/5 8 85 +1 20
Al Kaufman S.F. 8/8 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/6 7 85 +2 10
Gunboat Smith S.F. 8/9 7/5 3 3 4 2 5/4 8 95 +1 20
Charley Miller S.F. 8/8 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/6 8 85 +2 10
Sam Mc Vey(BH) Oxnard, Cal.10/11 8/6 2 3 2 2 5/4 7 90 -3 40
Jack Johnson(BH) Chicago 11/12 7/5 1 3 2 3 5/1 7 95 -5 45
Fred McKay Canada 7/8 6/4 6 3 7 3 5/5 7 80 +3 10
Jim Coffey Roscommon, Ire. 8/9 9/7 4 3 5 2 5/6 8 80 +1 20
Bombardier Wells London 10/10 8/6 6 3 7 3 5/5 8 85 -2 20
Boer Rodel South Africa 8/9 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/5 7 90 +1 10
Colin Bell Australia 8/9 6/4 5 3 6 3 5/5 7 90 +1 10
Bill Lang Australia 7/7 6/4 4 3 5 2 5/7 8 85 +4 10
Georges Carpentier France 9/9 7/5 3 3 4 3 6/4 8 90 E 20
Jack Dillon Indiana 9/9 6/4 2 3 3 2 6/3 8 95 E 20
Well, there you go. I only had an hour at the library, and I'm "hunt + peck"! The control factors do not differentiate between boxer/slugger. They are tie breakers for guys just slightly better than their cf group. Use the first number in all other cases. You will notice a couple of default rating standards, such as the direct relationship between defense and control factor. I did this because I felt making minute divisions between fighters abilities would be artificial; not based on thorough knowledge. I DID have most clippings of their bouts, and I studied them hard. My old self really knew about these boxers, and I trust myself. I hope you do. I believe these ratings will offer realistic bouts, and realistic results. I have to make sure Boer Rodel and Colin Bell's ratings were just a coincidence, or my son accidently read Rodel's line twice. Bell was a similar fighter, skillwise(though lesser known), so it may be just a coincidence. The two things I am most uncomfortable with are making Gunboat Smith and Jess Willard a "pick-em", while Gunboat handled Jess easily, in real life. That was before Jess's prime, and Gunboat's prime, though. The other concern is Bombardier Wells' ratings; I may have made him TOO good. I made him glass-jawed, but perhaps not even enough. I do believe he was the most skilled white heavyweight of the period, but not the best, because of his jaw. In his early knockout losses to Al Palzer, Gunboat Smith and Georges Carpentier, he decked each one of these opponents first, and at least two were tough propositions. As I said, I overlooked Tom Cowler, Charley Horn, a couple of others, and perhaps John Lester Johnson, so I will make up ratings for these guys soon. Enjoy, charger fan1, and whoever else. I will send weights within the next week(I forgot to get them from my good boy)

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Man, THIS went over like a lead balloon! I hope ONE of you guys can use these ratings, and then all that keypunching will have been worth it. Since I am a solo Title Bout player (and, heaven forbid, a board gamer!), I have no strategy ratings, and I tried to use blocks of ratings, rather than minute, often erroneous differentials between individual fighters. I believe getting their basic skill level and strengths and weaknesses accurate are more important than giving someone a quirky single digit surprise ratings that could be wrong, anyway. If you asked what would happen if this White Hope Era heavyweight would do against that one, I think these ratings would do a very good job of telling you. I hope these ratings don't clash too much with Title Bouts fighter profiles; that may be the whole problem.
As far as punches landed, if I recall, I again used blocks of ratings:
cf 12/12 1-46 cf 11/12 1-45, cf11/11 1-44, cf 10/11 1-43, cf 10/10 1-42,
cf 9/10 1-41, cf 9/9 1-40, cf 8/9 1-39, cf 8/8 1-38, cf 7/8 1-37, cf 7/7 1-36 Thanks, Steamboat.

[mh2365]

Nothing personal because I've enjoyed several of your posts, but to me it is like you are describing your black and white tv while we are all watching our plasma screens.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Nothing personal because I've enjoyed several of your posts, but to me it is like you are describing your black and white tv while we are all watching our plasma screens.

If I get the time, I can convert your ratings to tbdx files for any fighters that haven't been rated yet Palooka.

[Cap]

Far be it from me to criticize an obvious labour of love, but I do think Colin Bell was superior to Boer Rodel. If you get a chance, look up their records at Boxrec.com.

Rodel never really had much of a prime. He had a few wins over marginal heavies and got knocked out by Gunboat Smith, Fred Fritts, Jim Coffey, Bombardier Wells, Joe Jeannette, Tom Cowler, Sam McVea, etc.

Colin Bell "The Moree Mountain" won his first 23 bouts before losing a close one to arch-enemy Jack Howard. He knocked out Gus Ruhlin in 1910. He took Sam McVea into the 16th round before the ref called a halt. He fought Sam Langford to a draw over 15. He stayed the 20-round distance with Joe Jeannette. Late in his career he fought Tom Heeney 3 times, winning twice and drawing once. Ask our brother Shane for more info on this guy. Oh, by the way, Bell's last fight was a points decision over Jack Howard.

Cap

[steamboat brand, palooka]

"Touche", in a couple of cases, here. I'm not so sure you're right about Colin Bell being superior to Boer Rodel, at least during 1911-1915. Boer Rodel to me was like a poor man's Bombardier Wells; his skills were solid, but he couldn't take any punishment. I believe he gave as good as he got, even against the better heavyweights, until they inevitably nailed him. He outpointed Jess Willard, in 1913(?). The legend here is that Rodel's manager told Willard that Boer had a weak heart, and one solid punch could kill him, just after the Bull Young fatal contest. Supposedly, Willard fought the fight scared to death of killing Rodel, and thus lost. I wasn't there, but it sounds like hooey to me. Willard lost a decision to Tom McMahon, and he could have lost to Rodel, if Rodel ducked enough.
Colin Bell defeating Gus Ruhlin in 1910 is no great feat; Ruhlin's prime was in 1900. Those top black heavyweights often carried white opponents. mh2365, maybe it's bad plasma. That being said, you may be right. Conn Chris, I'll have weights for all of these fighters very soon. Stupid me, I had their EXACT weights for their individual fights, but I rounded off to five pound divisions(200-205-210,etc.) Thanks, Steamboat.

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Here are the weights of MOST of the fighters I rated earlier, but for some reason, I didn't have eight fighters weights listed. At one time, I knew those weights, too, so I'll put a five pound weight bracket, from what I recall, for their weights.
(It's enjoyable to discuss with you guys boxers I thought only I had knowledge of, after all the years. It is a bit frustrating now, when I attempt to give my views of why I rated who how, because I have forgotten much that I once knew by heart. This came clear to me yesterday, as Cap and I debated the merits of Rodel/Bell. At one time, I would have come up with particulars, in bouts, in results, to back my ratings. Fortunately, it's coming back a little bit, from this website. I have the entire scrapbook spacked away at my brother's, and it has every fight account and article that I based these old ratings on. When I flip through it again, my memory will get even clearer.)
Enough gab; here goes(I DID record exact weights, at each fighters major bout, after all; I picked the most representative weight, when there were several):
Porky Flynn 190
Andy Morris 191
Jack "Twin" Sullivan 175
Sandy Ferguson 215
Sam Langford 185 (heavier than you thought?)
Arthur Pelky 204
George "One Round" Davis 187
Soldier Delaney 205
Tom Kennedy 192
Sailor Fritts 185
Jim Stewart 210
Sailor White 200
Al Benedict 195
Al Reich (205-215?)
Soldier Kearns 200
Charley Weinert 185
Jim Savage 188
Joe Jeanette 195
Battling Levinsky(170-175?)easy to find
Tim Logan 200
Frank Moran 206
Tom "Bearcat" McMahon 187(He was usually just referred to as Tom, in NY Times)
Dan Daily 207
Tony Ross 194
Al Kubiak 213
Luther McCarty 205
Jim Barry 210
Harry Wills(215-220?)easy to find
Jeff Clarke (180-185?)
Battling Jim Johnson 221
Jack Johnson 205
Al Palzer 228
Carl Morris 230
Jess Willard 224(lighter than you thought?)
"Fireman" Jim Flynn 185
Jack Geyer 190
Tom McCarty (180-185?)
Al Kaufman 205
Charley Horn (San Francisco) 200
Charley Miller 218
Gunboat Smith 181(In the book, "In This Corner", Gunboat said he never weighed much; "170, hog fat and soaking wet", but that's not what the newspaper accounts say. He was usually around 180, and even a little more, as he got older.)
Sam McVea 205 (McVea, seen more than McVey)
Fred McKay 210
Jim Coffey 197
Bombardier Wells 191(Never called "Bombardier Billy Wells", in New York Times; always just Bombardier Wells.)
Boer Rodel 186
Colin Bell (190-195?)
Bill Lang 205
Georges Carpentier 170
Jack Dillon (160-170?) easy to find
Tom Cowler (England) 215-220?)easy to find
There you are. Steamboat. p.s. I'll get the OFFICIAL weights of the guys I tried to recall very soon.

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Oops! Poor old Jack McFarland, of Chicago! His weight was 200, and I didn't put it on the list! (His name was off to the side)Take heart, Jack-now they'll know your weight better than all of the other trial horses!

[hamed]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Nothing personal because I've enjoyed several of your posts, but to me it is like you are describing your black and white tv while we are all watching our plasma screens.

Now this is a funny reply!

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Thanks for your support, Hamed. Why do YOU think Colin Bell would have definately beaten George "Boer" Rodel in 1913? Who was the heavyweight who ended all tangled up in the ropes, unconscious, upside down, after another White Hope knocked him out? Hamed, I need some answers from you.

[mh2365]

As I said in my original statement I meant no disrespect but you did say "Man this went over like a lead balloon", I was attempting to tell you why.

Not many still play the board game. Most of the guys you are talking about are already rated in the game, it's nice to see your take on them.

I can only imagine what a useful member of the community you would be if only you had the game.

[steamboat brand, palooka]

mh2365, are my board game ratings incompatible with the computer game? I honestly don't know. I can understand why there would be no interest, if so. If they ARE compatible, then I don't think they should be labeled, "black + White TV, in the age of Plasma TV screens". I would stack my ratings up against the ones furnished in the computer game, any day. If the real guys fought again, and our ratings were compared, I bet my ratings would be closer. I haven't seen the other ratings, so I am not trashing them, but I am confident in mine. I remember doing A LOT of research on all of these guys, though much of the details have escaped me, after about twenty five years. One day, I too will own the computer game. and be "one of the guys", here. Until then, the board game does a fantastic job.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

mh2365, are my board game ratings incompatible with the computer game? I honestly don't know. I can understand why there would be no interest, if so. If they ARE compatible, then I don't think they should be labeled, "black + White TV, in the age of Plasma TV screens". I would stack my ratings up against the ones furnished in the computer game, any day. If the real guys fought again, and our ratings were compared, I bet my ratings would be closer. I haven't seen the other ratings, so I am not trashing them, but I am confident in mine. I remember doing A LOT of research on all of these guys, though much of the details have escaped me, after about twenty five years. One day, I too will own the computer game. and be "one of the guys", here. Until then, the board game does a fantastic job.

The computer game ratings do differ from the board game version but it is not that big a deal to make the conversion. I've done it for 50 to 75 ratings from the old cards that were not included in the database that comes stock with the PC game.

One of these days, I will pick through your ratings and convert those that are not in our database unless someone beats me to it.

With your passion Palooka, we may need to all pitch-in and get you a computer. You would be even more fun to have around if you were on the same game page.

Christopher

[Cap]

In my universe I think I've pretty much retired the last of the White Hope era heavies. There might still be one or two brawling in obscurity, having long since entered the ranks of professional opponents. I just cleared out a score of names with 10 or more losses attached to make room for new ones.

Cap

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Cap, I regretted myself saying my ratings would be BETTER, because the person formulating their ratings probably had a similar passion. It sounded arrogant. I'm just saying I am very confident in mine, no matter what.
It's funny, I had a similar interest and knowledge of fighters from the mid-sixties, but the information has left me, mow. I used to get every Boxing Illustrated, and most Ring Magazines during those times. The White Hope Era just fascinated me, and it stayed; I equate it with my interest in dinosaurs, when I was a kid. Those spooky old photos of ancient mastodons such as Al Palzer and Carl Morris hooked me.
Jack Johnson spent a night in Chester, Connecticut, on his victory tour, just after he beat Jim Jeffries. That's my home area. Battling Levinsky and Sailor Carroll fought in New London. Around New Year's Day, 1913, just before his loss to Luther McCarty,there was a giant posed photograph of Al Palzer on the sports page of the New London Day. It is a straight on shot from waist up, and his arms are folded. He seems ready to say, "Look at me. I am the most formidable man you have ever seen." It is strange to think now how many regular people glanced at his face, studying him, as the looked for local news that day. Steamboat Brand.
p.s. Is there any hope for a picture of Dan Daily(heavyweight), or Tom McCarty?