Floyd Patterson as a cruserweight

[Shaft081]

I just watched a tape of Floyd Patterson at 168lbs vs. Joey Maxium. Patterson looked real good, though he lost the decision. Patterson was a good heaveyweight, but he was done in by his chin. He only weighed 182 when he won the title vs. Archie Moore who outweighed him by 5lbs. When looking at Pattersons record, I see that he had a hard tiem with 200+lb. haveyweights. On his way to the title, he was only matched wth middleweights and lightheaveyweights. Liston of course was just way out his league in terms of strength and power. Even in the fights with guys over 200lb.s that he did win, he struggled. I've watched Patterson vs. Chuvalo and it was a very tough fight. Against Pete Rademacher, he clearly had the power to hurt he inexperianced bigger man, as he knocked him down 7 times in 6 rounds, but Patterson also went down. Brian London was easily handled, but he wa considered a 2nd rate European heaveyweight. Patterson had no chance agaisnt Ali, as it was a very bad matchup for him.

Since most of Patterson's career in his prime was fought vs. cruserweights, and he himslef would today be a cruserweight, if he disregard his fights vs bigger men, how would you rate him. Obviously his power would increase, and his chin would improve. What other changes would you make. Would his controll decrease vs faster opponents, or increase as he won't have to fear his opponents power as much. This is alsoa bit different than a typical move down in weight, because Patterson actually fougt most of his career at this weight. I'm just woundering if anyone has rated him, as I am very confused in my attempts

Patterson's style was that of a boxer/brawler. While he had a good jab he liked to try to get inside and work the body. He was really good at what he did, after all he beat Bonavena, drew with Quarry, KO'd Cooper, beat Chuvalo and beat Ellis (though he lost the decison, he was robbed). He was 182 when he won the title but from 1960 on he fought mostly in the mid 190's.

He had a weak chin, but he was able to get up and compete successfully against everyone except Liston. So even though he rightfully has a poor knockdown rating, he has to have a high control rating to reflect his quality as a fighter.

Floyd was a very good heavyweight for his time, as the only boxers who were really superior to him were Ali and Liston, and there's no shame in that.

Today, he'd have a tough time against most heavyweights, so he'd probably be a cruiser. I'm sure he'd wipe the floor with the other 195 pounders.

[mrchallenge]

Agreed. Guys like Mormeck and Braithwaite wouldn't stand a chance against the rabbit. I think maybe even smaller heavyweights like Byrd, Toney and Oquendo, and heavyweight Roy would probably get whupped as well. Don't let the chin fool you. Other than Liston, who else was able KO Patterson?

Even a prime ali coulldn't do it and it took 12 rounds with Floyd's back spasms, and the ref finally stopped it. Floyd went the distance with guys like bonavena and chuvalo, who hit pretty hard.

[LeeSkye]

Patterson was hand speed. There were/are few heavyweights who could shoot a punch like Floyd. Patterson's main problem was confidence and a lack of mental toughness. He was a very shy individual who really lacked the killer instinct. He did show it in his rematch with Ingemar Johanssen and he fought very well against Ali because it was a pride issue. He had a lot to prove in those fights and he really dug down deep to show he was as tough as the rest. The problem is, it is very hard to always find that emotional charge to draw from. It is true that Liston was just too big and strong for him but Patterson was already defeated mentally in that first fight because his own manager had already told him he couldn't beat Liston.

Originally Posted by LeeSkye

Patterson was hand speed. There were/are few heavyweights who could shoot a punch like Floyd. Patterson's main problem was confidence and a lack of mental toughness. He was a very shy individual who really lacked the killer instinct. He did show it in his rematch with Ingemar Johanssen and he fought very well against Ali because it was a pride issue. He had a lot to prove in those fights and he really dug down deep to show he was as tough as the rest. The problem is, it is very hard to always find that emotional charge to draw from. It is true that Liston was just too big and strong for him but Patterson was already defeated mentally in that first fight because his own manager had already told him he couldn't beat Liston.

I've heard it said before that Floyd lacked the killer instinct, but I don't agree. Floyd was a very aggressive fighter and when he got his opponent into trouble, he attacked strongly.

However, all of Floyd's ability and toughness seemed to vanish when he fought Liston. I don't think anyone really knows why. That makes Patterson hard to rate.

[Gunsmoke]

all of Floyd's ability and toughness seemed to vanish when he fought Liston.

Yeah but if you're gonna get intimidated by someone, Liston is the one that will intimidate you. No shame in that. I happen to think that Floyd's chin problems have been overstated as has been stated earlier.

Mark

[Shaft081]

Patterson had excellent offensive skills. As for his chin, keep in mind he got knocked down by some mediocre heaveyweights. Cus D;Amato matched him very carefully. He ducked not just Lison, but Zora Folley and Eddie Machen were suposedly very arefully avoided. Patterson was a real nice guy, and a credit to the sport, as well as a talented guy, but he was not a great heaveyweight. He was knocked dpwn not by to[p heaveyweights, but 2nd rate chalengers. I think he would be an all time great cruserweight with his style, handspeed and power. I am having a real hard time rating him though, because his cruserweight opponents are all rated as heavweywieghts.

[Bronx Bomber 15]

I'd love to add something on Floyd..but looks like you guys hit it all on the head already

As far as rating him as a cruiserweight...interesting idea. Think of how other heavies from the past (that would today be cruisers) would turnout if you rated them as such (Rocky, Dempsey, Tunney, Greb, a young Jack Johnson...) you'd have one hell of a Cruiserweight division! That may not be such a bad idea if you wanted to go that way.

[vistaman44]

I realize it could be said of several of the old-time heavyweight champions that they were actually cruisers or even light-heavies, but try this info about Rocky Marciano, a natural cruiserweight:
He was 49-0 with 43 KOs and six title defenses in a career where he campaigned solely as a heavyweight. He weighed between 178 and 190 pounds for every fight.
Fourteen of his opponents weighed 200 pounds or more. He stopped them all.
He was outweighed in 29 of the bouts, but won them all --- 27 by KO or TKO. Overall, his 44 different opponents weighed between 174 and 254 pounds.
The man was undefeated as a heavyweight, and would have also dominated his natural weight class for a second world title if the division had existed back then.

[Shaft081]

I know that this will not be a popular opinion

But what complicates things with Marciano and Patterson is the fact that most of their opponents were also under 200lbs. It's not like Marciano went 49-0 vs. guys over 200lbs. He was great and clearly could beat a lot of excellent big men, but his title opponents were
196 1/2lbs
197 1/2lbs
184 3/4lbs.
185/1/2lbs.
192 1/2lbs
205lbs.
188lb.


Prior to winning the title most of his opponents were small as well. I am not trying to downplay Maricanos greatness, but in his case if he was rerated, in my opinion he should only be improved slightly since he was primarily was a cruserweight, fuighting other cruserweights.

[Mr Big]

I have moved all of the old "heavyweights", such as Dempsey and Marciano, to the Cruiserweight division. I believe this gives a more realistic simulation when fighting them against the likes of today's big guys, such as Vitali Klitschko and Lennox Lewis. This isn't a knock against Jack or Rocky, and they still win most of the match-ups against the modern giants. It just takes them a round or two longer to get the job done.

[IceTea]

If Dempsey, Marciano, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Roland LaStarza and the like were around today, they would be 20 lbs heavier than their fighting weights "way back when". Mostly due to the fact that people are on the average larger today then the generations that produced the above mentioned boxers.

Modern diets and the advent of weight trainging, which was a staple of Dempsey's trainging, would also cause an elevation in body weight.

Rocky Marciano was 5'10" 190 on his best day after dinner. He would be around 215 today which is about what Iron Mike was when he won the title.

Just my thoughts

MJ

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by IceTea

If Dempsey, Marciano, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Roland LaStarza and the like were around today, they would be 20 lbs heavier than their fighting weights "way back when". Mostly due to the fact that people are on the average larger today then the generations that produced the above mentioned boxers.

Modern diets and the advent of weight trainging, which was a staple of Dempsey's trainging, would also cause an elevation in body weight.

Rocky Marciano was 5'10" 190 on his best day after dinner. He would be around 215 today which is about what Iron Mike was when he won the title.

Just my thoughts

MJ

Dempsey did some cable/pully training and about 300 pullups every other day.

MJ

[erickdamac]

LOL Toney whould kick his ass, man you crazy? Jones You dont know how the chin would do both have suspect chins, But byrd, would box circles around him, patterson isnt a great fighter, just a good Hw in a bad era.

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by erickdamac

LOL Toney whould kick his ass, man you crazy? Jones You dont know how the chin would do both have suspect chins, But byrd, would box circles around him, patterson isnt a great fighter, just a good Hw in a bad era.

Not true. Eddie Futch, who's opinion is top dollar, stated in a radio interview several years ago, that Floyd Patterson had the second fastest hands of any heavyweight of all-time. He stated that Billy Conn, since he did fight Joe Louis for the belt, had the fastest hands of all-time. When asked about Ali, Eddie Futch stated that Ali had the best feet ever.

Byrd and Patterson are on about the same level, but both are above Toney on the all-time scale. Who has Toney defeated at heavyweight? Boozer, who is an ordinary cruiser and Evander who is 10 years past his prime.

MJ

[erickdamac]

Really I dont give a damn what a old ass man said about someone he hasnt seen in the ring in 40 years, Floyd is not a Heavyweight by today terms anyway, so lets say who has toney beaten at 175-190 and then get back to me because that was Floyd fighting weight, Toney is a All-time great, and he has a rock hard chin, he has skills and defense, He can adapt to any style, Floyd had problems with inside fighters, and he got drop waaaay too many times, Toney would toy with him then go for the kill, remember floyd weight was around 180, so lets get the toney from 175-190 against the Heavyweight champ floyd!

Toney will be the 3rd MW to ever become HW Champ, and then he is gonna clean the division clean.

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by erickdamac

Really I dont give a damn what a old ass man said about someone he hasnt seen in the ring in 40 years, Floyd is not a Heavyweight by today terms anyway, so lets say who has toney beaten at 175-190 and then get back to me because that was Floyd fighting weight, Toney is a All-time great, and he has a rock hard chin, he has skills and defense, He can adapt to any style, Floyd had problems with inside fighters, and he got drop waaaay too many times, Toney would toy with him then go for the kill, remember floyd weight was around 180, so lets get the toney from 175-190 against the Heavyweight champ floyd!

Toney will be the 3rd MW to ever become HW Champ, and then he is gonna clean the division clean.

I would have to say that he has forgot more about boxing than you will even know. And by your comments, I can tell that you have the same bad attitude that James "burned out" Toney has.

How will he clean-up the division when he can't stay healthy? Plus, he won't get by Ruiz....Can't wait to email you after Toney's demise.

MJ

[erickdamac]

Iceman I smell a bet ****I smell it**** Watch you got big man!?!?!?!


Well think about what you said, first you say toney not a real Hw, Well neither is Floyd! Then you say Toney who has toney beat at Hw? Well who has Floyd beat a a Heavyweight? I mean A real heavyweight not these 180' 190's guys, Then take in we have to talk about the chins, and I think we all can agree that toney has a better chin then Patterson? And skill wise, Toney is the better defensive fighter of the two IMO.

Toney Is the type of fighter that dont need speed, or all that ****, all he need is his skills, Toney TKO Ruiz 10rd! I have 1000 dollars on him!

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone!!!!

[Jim_Kidd]

Originally Posted by IceTea

If Dempsey, Marciano, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Roland LaStarza and the like were around today, they would be 20 lbs heavier than their fighting weights "way back when". Mostly due to the fact that people are on the average larger today then the generations that produced the above mentioned boxers.

Modern diets and the advent of weight trainging, which was a staple of Dempsey's trainging, would also cause an elevation in body weight.

Rocky Marciano was 5'10" 190 on his best day after dinner. He would be around 215 today which is about what Iron Mike was when he won the title.

Just my thoughts

MJ

Yeah, I think that's about right. A lot of the older fighters would weight more in today's game. Marciano could have added a lot to his upper body to match the thickness of his legs. Dempsey probably could have added a decent amount of weight and some more muscle, too.

Jim

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by erickdamac

Iceman I smell a bet ****I smell it**** Watch you got big man!?!?!?!


Well think about what you said, first you say toney not a real Hw, Well neither is Floyd! Then you say Toney who has toney beat at Hw? Well who has Floyd beat a a Heavyweight? I mean A real heavyweight not these 180' 190's guys, Then take in we have to talk about the chins, and I think we all can agree that toney has a better chin then Patterson? And skill wise, Toney is the better defensive fighter of the two IMO.

Toney Is the type of fighter that dont need speed, or all that ****, all he need is his skills, Toney TKO Ruiz 10rd! I have 1000 dollars on him!

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone!!!!

*** If you wanna lose your change, bet on James....Toney that is.

MJ