JR Heavyweight

[IceTea]

I'm watching the JR. Heavyweight matchup between Holyfield and Braxton on ESPN Classic. Besides it being a very good fight, I wish that the current boxing factions would again call the current cruiserweight division the Jr. Heavyweight division.

MJ

[Bronx Bomber 15]

There is actually an organization with a "Super-Cruiser" division, if you can believe that. It's like 200-215 or something like that.

I'd like to see a return to 15 rounders.

Did you catch the commentary early on? A mention of Holyfield carrying a bit of "extra weight" and that he "still thinks he can move up to the Heavyweights". Funny hearing that after knowing what we do now. I must say though, I can appreciate his conditioning even more now after seeing how lean he was then. He really did some job putting on the solid body weight to make the jump, and being sucessful to boot.

[hamed]

I agree about the 15 rounders, all my world title bouts are 15.

I think they try to get away from the "Jr." tag when they can because it makes it sound like the title holder is younger or not up to par with real champs.

I read that Leonard was once asked by a female reporter about his winning the WBA Jr. Middleweight title from Ayub Kalule. Before Ray fought Hearns the 1st time, he went up to 154 so if he lost against Hearns, he'd still have a title.

Anyway, this woman asked Ray if he thought it was right that he beat up on juniors? I never heard how Ray responded but he should have given her the kind of answer Toney would when he's asked any question - especially a stupid one like that!

[CONN CHRIS]

I think the drop to 12 rounds was an over reaction. That decision really needs to be evaluated again.

With respect to the "Jr" tag, I don't much care what they call them (super/junior) I just wish that they would all adopt a commonly used name.

Oh, and Super Cuiserweight ?!? Lol, that must be the same outfit that once crowned Mitch Green the Super Heavyweight Champ after his breathtaking win over Danny Wofford.

Christopher

[Jim_Kidd]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I think the drop to 12 rounds was an over reaction. That decision really needs to be evaluated again.

I read the main reason (not the political one) for dropping to the 12 round distance was due to the issue of inserting commercials into a 1 hour TV time slot. In other words, 15 round fights squeezed out too much "valuable" ad time. We're talking about free TV, of course.

There was no documented proof that an addition 3 rounds was dangerous to a boxer's health - no more dangerous than the previous rounds. It's the referee and ringside doctor's job to monitor a fighter's fatigue, ability to take additional punishment, and all the other factors that could result in sustaining a life-threatening injury.

The IBF was the last organization to drop from the 15 round championship limit to the current 12 round limit. Now, with the advent of Showtime and HBO, the 15 round championship limit could conceivably be restored without the loss of "precious" advertising time.

Outwardly, to the public, the fighter's health was used to promote the real agenda - more ad time.


Jim

[CONN CHRIS]

I was not aware of that, but the money angle certainly makes sense. I had always thought this was the direct result of all the bad publicity generated by the Johnny Owen and Deuk-Koo Kim late round deaths in the early eighties.

[hamed]

I thought it had to do with Kim's death as well. The WBC was 1st to drop their bouts to 12 rounds & Kim died going for the WBA belt.

[IceTea]

It was the Kim bout that caused the drop to 12 rounds. I would like to see the bar raised back to 15. It would cause many of the heavyweights to do more cardo other than pushing away from the kitchen table.

MJ

[Ian Lord]

I also heard that the reason championship bouts were dropped to twelve rounds was due to pressure from tv companies. Maybe it was a bit of both.

I prefer the term cruiserweight to jr.heavyweight, but maybe that's because I'm from the UK where we don't really use the term jr. We tend to use the time term light, as in light-middle or light-welter etc. except in the jr.lightweight division where we refer to it as super-feather [as light-lightweight would sound pretty stupid].

p.s. I would also like to see championship bouts raised back up to fifteen.

[bear]

I'd always associated the reduction with Kim's death, but jim Kidd's idea is cynical enough to taken into account as a factor.

If you go to the link:
http://ejmas.com/kronos/

you'll find links to a chronological histoy of martial arts and to the Electronic Journal of Martial Arts and Sciences edited by a guy named Joe Svinth. Among the articles in EJMAS you'll find the boxing fatality list
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm

in the Journal of Combatative sport.
Joe's seems to put the kibash to arguments that the increased length of rounds beyond 12, is a factor responsible for causing the death of fighters. Risk for round is viewed as less of a problem than mis-matching.

A much bigger problem is greed and the over-matching guys who aren't ready.

Bear

Originally Posted by IceTea

It was the Kim bout that caused the drop to 12 rounds. I would like to see the bar raised back to 15. It would cause many of the heavyweights to do more cardo other than pushing away from the kitchen table.

MJ

[Jim_Kidd]

Originally Posted by bear

I'd always associated the reduction with Kim's death, but jim Kidd's idea is cynical enough to taken into account as a factor.

If you go to the link:
http://ejmas.com/kronos/

you'll find links to a chronological histoy of martial arts and to the Electronic Journal of Martial Arts and Sciences edited by a guy named Joe Svinth. Among the articles in EJMAS you'll find the boxing fatality list
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm

in the Journal of Combatative sport.
Joe's seems to put the kibash to arguments that the increased length of rounds beyond 12, is a factor responsible for causing the death of fighters. Risk for round is viewed as less of a problem than mis-matching.

A much bigger problem is greed and the over-matching guys who aren't ready.

Bear

Kim's death was publicized reason. But for years, it was alledged that the network preferred the 12 round USBA, NABF bouts - which brought additional minutes of air time for ads... within a particular slot.

Kim's death provided a visible rallying point by which their agenda could be pushed through.

It reminds me what I read of the Civil War, here in the US. Slavery was an emotion rallying point which drew support from the masses. According to historians... it was the taxation of the north upon the south that was the real issue.

Whatever position a person believes... you have to wonder how modern boxing history would have been changed had the 15 round distant been in existence.

The Chavez - Taylor fight would have ended early in the 13th round instead of with seconds remaining in the 12th. And how many other fights were won by guys sucking wind, grabbing and holding their way (practically read to collapse) through the 12th and final round?

Jim

[Bronx Bomber 15]

Originally Posted by Jim_Kidd

The Chavez - Taylor fight would have ended early in the 13th round instead of with seconds remaining in the 12th. And how many other fights were won by guys sucking wind, grabbing and holding their way (practically read to collapse) through the 12th and final round?

Jim

You guys may remember, and I can't seem to recall what program it was on, but not too long ago there was a discussion on the effect 12 rounders would have had on major bouts in the past. Leonard/Hearns I was one example (one we all just saw). They basically were pointing out bouts where the "other guy" would have won via the scorecards had the bout been 12, and not 15 rounds. I think it was part of a Showtime broadcast.

Originally Posted by CHRIS_CONN

Oh, and Super Cuiserweight ?!? Lol, that must be the same outfit that once crowned Mitch Green the Super Heavyweight Champ after his breathtaking win over Danny Wofford.

Yeah, it was the WBF or some obscure "sanctioning body".

[erickdamac]

15 rounds would get fighters killed, they can hardley for 12, lets not hurt these guys.

[Mark42661]

Originally Posted by Bronx Bomber 15

You guys may remember, and I can't seem to recall what program it was on, but not too long ago there was a discussion on the effect 12 rounders would have had on major bouts in the past. Leonard/Hearns I was one example (one we all just saw). They basically were pointing out bouts where the "other guy" would have won via the scorecards had the bout been 12, and not 15 rounds.

I don't think history would have been changed as much as we might think if championship fights had been scheduled for only 12 rounds in the past.

Would Rocky Marciano have lost his first fight with Jersey Joe Walcott if the fight had been scheduled for 12 rounds? I don't think so.

Would Billy Conn have taken the title from Joe Louis? I don't think so there either.

The whole pace and psycology of those fights may have been different if they had been scheduled for 12 rounds rather than 15. I think great fighters like Marciano and Louis find a way to win those fights regardless of the scheduled distance.

That being said... We'll never see another 15 round fight. While those extra 3 rounds may not have a huge affect on a fighter's health, the absence of those 3 rounds certainly doesn't hurt. I'm sure that the "powers that be" would see no benefit to going back to 15 round fights.

[Bronx Bomber 15]

Originally Posted by Mark42661

... We'll never see another 15 round fight. While those extra 3 rounds may not have a huge affect on a fighter's health, the absence of those 3 rounds certainly doesn't hurt. I'm sure that the "powers that be" would see no benefit to going back to 15 round fights.

You're right about that.

I don't think I can really move 100% in either direction with this issue because there are so many examples to push the issue either way. While I love boxing and the excitment of the sport, I would never want to see any fighter permanently injured or die as a result of a bout, as has happened so often, unfortunately.

[meade95]

I for one am fine with the decision to go from 15rds to 12rds -

Though it surly would have changed the outcome of certain fights had this been done earlier - Hearns beats Sugar Ray without a doubt in their first fight - Hearns lost that fight completely because he ran out of gas (and very little to do with Sugar Ray....other than Sugar Ray handling the pre-pressure of the fight much better) - Tommy Hearns couldn't hold down any food or sleep much at all for the 48 hours prior to the fight -

If the fight was 12 rounds Tommy wins easily -

[Jim_Kidd]

Just to throw this in there... the Dempsey - Tunney fights were only scheduled for 10 rounds under the New York State Athletic Commission rules. And they were for the Heavyweight Title.

Could this possibly happen again? I guess so.


Jim