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TBCB Inside the Ropes Your game and fantasy fights

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Old 11-09-2009, 04:35 PM   #41 (permalink)
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The research you put into your universes is really impressive!!
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:35 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Thank you very much, Chris and Lee. A kind word from you two is the ultimate compliment considering all that you have done for this forum through the years.

Actually, for me the research is the real fun of running the universes. I've always been one who enjoyed digging deeply into a subject and exploring it to its roots. Fortunately, I have a fairly extensive collection of boxing magazines that goes back to 1948. Thus, what I can't find on the Net, I can gennerally discover without leaving home.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:08 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The following are some fighters Papp will face in 1949-1950, a period that reflects the twilight of a sports era in New York City. In selecting these boxers, I attempted to capture the spirit that was present in the city at the time.

The Euro-ethnic based appeal in boxing was nearing its end by the late 40s and a decade later, it would have pretty much ended. As it is today, New York City was in reality a collection of racial/ethnic based neighborhoods.

The African-Americans were concentrated in Harlem, the Irish in Hell's Kitichen, Jews in the Lower East Side, with Little Italy a little to the north, as well as a heavy concentration of Eastern Europeans (including Hungarians) east of Second Avenue. A similar diversity existed in the "outer boroughs" of Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Queens.

And speaking of the city's components, there was a competition among the boroughs as well. This was reinforced by the three major league baseball teams at the time--the Giant played in Manhatten's Polo Grounds, the Dodger were based in Brooklyn, and of course those Yankees were in the Bronx.

The boroughs each also had their boxing venues. In Manahatten it was St. Nick's Arena. Brooklyn boasted Ridgewood Grove and Broadway Arena, there was Jerome Stadium in the Bronx, and of course there was the famous Sunnyside Gardens in Queens.

Political, economic, and social factors during the 1950s substantially altered New York's sports environment. By 1958 both the Giants and the Dodgers had moved to California, and many of the Euro-ethnic departed the city for Long Island and the New Jersey suburbs.

Papp will fight the next few years in the New York metro area, and then move on to the national scence. In addition to the created fighter below, he'll be facing a number of boxers who already exist in the TBCB fighter pool.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:19 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Nat (Izzy) Blum-107700

Izzy was your typical Brooklyn-based Jewish slugger of the period. He had a pretty short career (less than two years), but between early 1948 and late 1949, he had twenty-eight pro fights, winning only eight.

Strictly a prelim fighter, all of Izzy's bouts were four and six round affairs. He did have some sort of a punch (he won by kayo in seven of his eight wins). But Blum had two major faults, a suspect jaw and an ability to bleed. What else can you say about a guy who dropped two straight decisions to Casto Shimkevich?

BoxRec lists Blum as a welterwieght, but for the vast majority of his matches he weighed in at 160 plus pounds.
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Last edited by professordp; 11-12-2009 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:37 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Vic Costa-44257

Another guy listed as a welterweight who fought many his matches over the 150 mark, Costa was a product of the Italian section of the Bronx. In a career spanning 1944 to 1949, he fought seventy-two times winning thirty-one.

Only six of those wins came by way of a countout. It wasn't so much that he lacked a punch but rather that he was a poor finisher. For example he knocked Tony Pellone down twice in the first round but went on to lose a ten round decision at the end of the night. A month later, he put Gene Boland down for a count of nine in the fifth round, but was on the losing end of an eight round decision.

One of the few positives I could add was that he did last eight rounds with Tony Janiro in 1949 who beat him in that was termed a "decisive, one-sided" judges' decision. He also dropped an eight round unanimous nod to Lenny Mancini in 1946.

The attached rating is not a reflection of Vic's complete career but is based upon the last two years he was fighting which was as a middleweight.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:46 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Herbie Kronowitz-24699

No tomato can here! Herbie was the pride of the Jewish-Americans who lived in the Coney Island section of Brooklyn. A clever boxer/puncher, Kronowitz was briefly ranked a top ten contender for the world title in the mid-1940s. He won fifty-five of his eighty-three fights during a career that ran between 1941 and 1950. Herbie was only kayoed twice--and those knockouts took place in his two final bouts.

The attached rating is actually a variation/revision of one that was posted by David Myers a few years back. David had him as a 5, and so do I. What I did in effect was to move a few things around, that's all.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:11 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Vinnie Cidone-11211

This is another revision of one of David's previously posted ratings. Once more, I sort of moved things around coming up with a 4 where David saw him as a 5. Really not a big deal when you think of it!

I kind of think about Vinnie as the poor man's Rocky Graziano. He fought Rocky in Milwaukee back in 1950 and actually had the former champ on the mat in round two. Unfortunately, Vinnie suffered a severe cut and the contest was halted in the next round. The tendency to cut was perhaps his most serious weakness.

Like Rocky, he was tough, a hard hitter, with very limited boxing skills. An Italian-Amercan from Brooklyn's Red Hook section, Vinnie was one of those guys who came right at you firing bombs. That meant that he frequently used his face to stop punches.

This gave him somewhat of an affinity for the canvas. Still what he lacked in skill, he made up with heart. He was stopped eight times in his forty-seven fight career--but never actually counted out. It seems that if you wanted an early night against Vinnie you either had to cut him or knock him down several times in a round.

Typically on the undercard during his four year career, he did fight a number main events and faced (and lost to) some of the division's top talent. Besides Graziano, he squared off against Joey DeJohn, Paddy Young, and Ernie Durando, all in losing efforts

For the locals, his two bouts with Herbie Kronowitz were a high point. They split decisions in the two ten rounders that briefly revised the ethnic compeition in the ring between Brooklyn Jews and Italians.

Overall, not too bad a record thirty-six wins agaisnt twelve losses. Sadly for Vinnie whenever he was matched against quality talent, he lost the fight. Taking two successive six round decisions from Art Tatta or knocking out Jimmy Snedeker in two didn't count for much back in the day.
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Last edited by professordp; 11-12-2009 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:51 AM   #48 (permalink)
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New York Daily Star
January 16, 1949


Papp Cruises to Victory
Floors Miller Twice for Unanimous Nod

By Jimmy Wallwork

Cheered on by a large contingent of his fellow Hungarians, Laszlo Papp picked up his third win in as many fights by scoring a six round unanimous decision over Brooklyn's Coolidge Miller last night at St. Nick's. Miller was decked in the first and sixth rounds.

In the first round, Papp displayed the skills that earned him a gold medal at last summer's Olympics. He came out strong, mixing his blows and working Miller's head and body alternatively.

One minute into the contest, he knocked the wind out of Miller with a nasty shot to the body and immediately followed up with a crashing hook to the jaw that sent Coolidge sprawling to the canvas for a count of six.

With nearly two minutes to go it looked like it was going to be an early night. But Miller used the ring savy he picked up in his previous ninety-four pro fights to weather the storm and live to fight another round.

Although he obviously out-classed Miller, Papp failed to press the advantage and appeared willing to cruise through the match. In this regard, his inexperience as a pro was on display. He pretty much was able to hit Miller at will but infrequently put his punches together.

In the final frame, however, Laszlo seemed to have shaken his doldrums, coming out strong at the bell. He started working Coolidge's body, which had taken a substantial beating during the previous five rounds. Early in the round, Miller dropped his guard and Papp launched a left-right salvo to the head that dumped the Brooklyn native for the second time in the bout.

When Miller finally got to his feet at the count of eight, it was uncertain whether he could continue, but the referee allowed to the match to continue. For the remainder of the round, Papp pounded away. Had the match been an eight rounder, it's doubtful if Miller would have been able to get off his stool for the next heat.

Papp continues to impress and his talents are far from raw. Nevertheless, he does need some polish. He'd greatly benefit from taking on an American trainer. His current handler, Szigmund Adler, worked wonders with Laszlo to prepare for the Olympics but lacks experience in the pro game.

The Hungarian will make his Madison Square Garden debut as part of a Valentine's Day card. Given the theme of the fight night, his opponent will be veteran Cupid Gorden.

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Old 11-20-2009, 06:56 PM   #49 (permalink)
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The Ring Ratings for the Month

February 1949

Middleweights

Marcel Cerdan, Champion

1) Bert Lytell

2) Steve Belloise

3) Jake LaMotta

4) Tony Zale

5) Cyriel Delannoit

6) Sylvester Perkins

7) Dick Turpin

8) Robert Villemain

9) Lee Sala

10) Rocky Graziano


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Old 11-21-2009, 12:16 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Sylvester Who????

That was my response when I was pulling the rankings posted above from The Ring. How did Sylvester Perkins wind up at number six in the world? I did some research, and I still don't have an answer!

Well here it goes. The guy was pretty much a "fighting fool". His career ran from 1947 to 1954 with a total of fifty-three fights. But thirty of those bouts were during the first twenty months of his pro career (1947-1948)

On paper, he didn't look too bad, putting together a record of 24-5-1 and stopping eleven opponents. He did a lot prelims in Chicago, but by the middle of 1948 he was pretty much fighting ten rounders.

He beat some of the familiar names of the day like Tommy Yarosz, Pat McCafferty, and Ossie Harris. Still none of this should have placed him so high. Yet as 1948 drew to a close, The Ring ranked him at the sixth spot!

Things went downhill quickly for Sylvester in 1949. He dropped a ten round nod to Bert Lytell, lost ro Yarosz in a rematch, and was stopped by Artie Towne. Later that year he found himself facing Bob Satterfield who decked him four times in a match that was halted in the second.

From what I could find on him, he had some skills as a boxer, and despite the slaughter at the hands of Satterfield, he had the ability to hang in there--he was only stopped six times and three of those came in his final four fights.

He really didn't have much in terms of power. Of eleven of the twelve early round victories took place against unheralded stiffs during those hectic first two years of his pro career.

After 1948, he slowed the pace a little, and "only" fought twenty-three fights until he hung up the gloves in 1954. After his intial two year "whirlwind" he settled in to a 13-9-1 record. You get the strong impression that he was pretty much used up in his latter years. He stopped getting the ten rounders and finished up fighting six and eight round undercard matches.

All that said, I felt that I needed to rate him and use him against Papp at some point. So here's a rating and a photo.
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Last edited by professordp; 11-21-2009 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 11:23 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Bert Lytell-Middleweight Rating

Another addition to the Papp uni is Bert Lytell who is rated as a light heavyweight in the default pool. BoxRec lists him as a middleweight, however, and it seems that he fought in the upper division due to a problem maintaining the 160 pound limit. I've incorporated this into the attached rating seeing him as a 4 in conditioning.

Personally, I think he's rated a little too high as a light heavy, but that's just my personal opinion. And I'm not offering any revision for that weight class.

After being counted out in two at the hands of Deacon Johnny Brown in 1946, he ran up a string of thirteen consecutive wins until he dropped a unanimous decision to Archie Moore in 1947. Included in that streak were wins over Charley Burley and Sam Baroudi. Yet when you look at it in its totality, the winning tear also includes victories over a far-gone Cocoa Kid, George Smith, and Jota Jota Fernandez.

So I've downgraded Lytell a little, taking him from a 10 down to an 8. A matchup against Papp in 1950 or 1951 seems to be in the cards.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:30 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professordp View Post
How did Sylvester Perkins wind up at number six in the world?
Since Ring voters actually saw few of the fighters they were ranking actually fight, I'm guessing that they found voting for a guy named 'Sylvester' irresistible.

I know I would have.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:39 AM   #53 (permalink)
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New York Daily Star
February 15, 1949


Papp Impressive in Garden Debut

By Jimmy Wallwork

Hungarian Olympian Laszlo Papp picked up his fourth professional win last night at Madison Square Garden by pounding out a six round unanimous decision over journeyman Cupid Gordon.

From the opening bell, Gordon appeared to be in a survival mode. Keeping his distance, moving around the ring, and employing strategic clinches, he didn't provide Papp with much of a target for the first two rounds.

In round three, Papp finally caught up to his quarry, launching a full assualt on Gordon's head and body. Laszlo had his man measured in the fourth frame and placed Cupid in serious trouble with the referee, Ben Cerracelli, pondering a stoppage as the final seconds ticked off.

At the start of the fifth heat, Papp continued to press his point, snapping Gordon's head back with lethal hooks to the jaw. But Laszlo's blitz skidded to an abrupt halt after a nasty looking gash was opened over his right eye midway into the round.

The severity of the cut resulted in a brieft stoppage in the actiion by Cerracelli who escorted Papp to the ringside doctor for a professional assessment.

After a rather tense moment, the match was allowed to continue, but for the remainder of the round, Laszlo eased up on the throttle and fought cautiously.

As the sixth and final round began, it was obvious that Papp was concerned about the cut. He kept his distance from Gordon who was intent on moving inside with the sole object of restarting the blood flow.

Making good use of his jab, Papp set Cupid up for a powerful cross near the end of the round, sending the veteran Gordon to the mat. He made it to his feet as the final bell rang, thus sending the matter to the judges for the decision which was really an anticlimax.

Two of the judges saw it 60-53 with the third submitting a score of 59-54, all in Laszlo's favor.

With four very easy wins under his belt, Papp appears ready to step up to more challenging competition. Since he settled here last fall after fleeing the Communist dictatorship in Hungary, he's generated considerable interest in the boxing world.

His boxing skills are augmented by his good looks, and Papp has the potential to be a strong pull at the box office. To date he doesn't have a manager, but Laszlo is being intensely courted by boxing powerhouses like Al Weill, Irving Cohen, and Cus D'Amato, all of whom want to sign him to a long-term contract.



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Old 11-28-2009, 04:24 PM   #54 (permalink)
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New York Daily Star
March 1, 1949


WEILL WINS PAPP "WAR"!
Veteran Manager Signs Gold Medalist
to Long Term Contract

By Jimmy Wallwork

Ending months of speculation, it was formally announced that veteran boxing manager Al Weill had come to terms with Hungarian middleweight Laszlo Papp, and will direct the fighter's professional career on a "long term" basis. The nature and details of the contract were not released to the public in the announcement which was issued from Weill's business offices on 34th Street.

Papp fled Hungary's repressive Communist regime and was granted political asylum late last year. Although he has only had four professional fights, his arrival stirred considerable interest among the boxing world's power brokers.

Until today's announcement it was not certain who would ultimately become the Hungarian's braintrust. In addition to Weill, Iriving Cohen and Cus D'Amato were also heavily courting Papp in recent weeks.

Boxing insiders are virutally unanimous in their view that the sigining with Weill was Papp's best move. Well-connected with major fight promoters and a tough negotiator, Weill has a proven track record having guided Lou Ambers, Marty Servo, and Joey Archibald to championships. He also represents the professional interests of Rocky Marciano, a major contender for the heavyweight crown.

Papp will also benefit from the fact that trainers Charley Goldman and Whitey Bimstein are party of the Weill boxing organization. Although Papp has had no real problems winning his first four fights, some critics have pointed out that he's not fully adjusted to the differences between amatuer and professional boxing.

Both Goldman and Bimstein are seen as among the best at conditioning and preparing boxers for big fights. It's expected that their presence in Papp's corner will greatly propel his professional career.

In his most recent fight, Papp scored a one-sided six round will over journeyman Cupid Gordon. The general consensus in the boxing community is now that Weill is directing his development the quality of Papp's opponents will markedly increase.

It's expected that Papp's next fight will be in about six week, however, no opponent or date has been set.

Below:

THE PAPP TEAM:
Hungarian middleweight Laszlo Papp (left) has signed with Al Weill (right) to direct his professional career. Weill had guided several boxers to world championships
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Last edited by professordp; 11-28-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 11-28-2009, 04:29 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Charley Goldman (left) and Whitey Bimstein (right) will train Papp for his bouts and work his corner during his fights.
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:15 PM   #56 (permalink)
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New York Daily Star
April 3, 1949


Papp Winner By Decision
Hungarian Scores Fifth Win Over Reed

By Jimmy Wallwork

Under the watchful eyes of his new cornermen Charley Goldman and Whitey Bimstein, middleweight Laszlo Papp had little difficulty with journeyman Torpedo Reed in their eight round match last night at Madison Square Garden.

Papp was awarded a unanimous decision with all three judges scoring the bout 79-72 in his favor. He sent Reed to the canvas for a mandatory eight count in the sixth round.

After a getting aquainted session in the first heat, Papp took full command of the contest and dominated throughout. Although on the wrong end of an obvious mismatch, Reed proved to be a game opponent.

In the third and fourth frames, Papp had Reed in serious trouble. After punishing his opponent's body in the second round, Papp shifted his attack to the head as Reed dropped his guard to protect his previously targeted torso.

It took all of the experience that Reed accumulated in his seventy plus professional fights to withstand Papp's steady assualt. The veteran tagged the young Papp with some hard shots to the head, but the blows failed to deter young Laszlo who just forced his way inside and worked the body with hooks and launced periodic power shots to Reed's head.

By the end of round four, Reed's face began to show the toll that Papp's punches had produced and was sporting a severe swelling of the right eye. As the match wore on, Reed's conditon worsened and made him an easy target for Papp's powerful lefts.

One such left early in round five deposited Reed on the ring floor. This was somewhat of an accomplishment for the Hungarian. Although considered a run-of-the-mill journeyman, Reed has and iron jaw and was only stopped three times in seventy-three contests.

As one-sided as the match was, it provided Papp with a good eight round workout against a ring savvy opponent. Now under the management of one of boxing's most respected impresarios, Al Weill, Papp will undoubtedly face tougher foes in the near future.

Commenting on Papp's perfromance, his trainer, Charley Goldman, offered the following observation.

"The kid put on an impressive performance. He just turned twenty-three and this is only his fifth fight as a pro.

"But he's got great boxing instincts and a world of talent. He's real easy to train. Laszlo's not your typical European fighter. He doesn't stand up stiff and rigid.

"He's a lot like the American fighters. He fights out of a crouch, bobs and weaves, and works his way inside."

Papp, who's greatest opponent at this point has been the English language, stood by and smiled throughout Goldman's analysis.

When asked for his comments, the beaming Hungarian said, "Good!"

Good, indeed! From what he displayed last night at the Garden, there will been many good things happening for young Laszlo down the road.


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Old 12-04-2009, 05:37 AM   #57 (permalink)
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The Ring Ratings for the Month

April 1949

Middleweights

Marcel Cerdan, Champion

1) Bert Lytell

2) Steve Belloise

3) Jake LaMotta

4) Cyriel Delannoit

5) Tony Zale

6) Sylvester Perkins

7) Dick Turpin

8) Robert Villemain

9) Rocky Graziano

10) Bob Murphy

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Old 12-06-2009, 10:52 AM   #58 (permalink)
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The Brooklyn Bugle
May 16, 1949


Papp Whacks Izzy Dizzy!
Blum Halted In Fifth Round

By Larry Rubin

Last year's Olympic gold medalist, Hungarian Laszlo Papp, was just too much for Brooklyn local Nat "Izzy" Blum in their scheduled eight round affair at Broadway Arena.

Papp gave Izzy a severe beating in the match which was wisely halted with thirty seconds remaining in round five.

After a feeling out first round, both fighters got down to business in the second. The soutpaw Papp's bobbing, weaving, crouching style gave Blum problems early on.

Laszlo proved difficult to hit as he moved inside to punish Blum with powerful rights and lefts. Blum was able to catch the Hungarian a few times with a crosses to the head but was unable to halt Papp's progress.

In the third, Papp turned up the heat on Izzy, tagging him with ripping hooks and quick combinations. As the round was winding down, referee Mike O'Malley was watching Blum closely with obvious thoughts of stopping the slaughter.

Although Izzy made it to the next round, it was obvious to all that he had little if anything left. Papp, however, was the picture of patience, no doubt following the sage advice of his cornerman, Charley Goldman.

Rather than ripping into Blum at the opening bell, Papp displayed a bit of caution to make certain that the game was over and the prey was ready to be taken. He spent most of the fouth frame, stalking Izzy and measuring him for the kill. For his part, Izzy offered virtually no offense for the entire three minutes of the round.

Now certain of the situation, Papp rushed Blum at the start of the fifth battering the seemingly helpless Izzy around the ring. By the 2:00 minute mark, O'Malley had seen enough and halted the massacre giving the win to Papp via the TKO.

The win takes Papp's record to 6-0. Blum is now stands at 6-14-1.

Al Weill, who recently became Papp's manager, spoke to the press after the match and predicted great things for his fighter.

"Laszlo's progressing much faster than we thought he would. But we're not going to rush him. This is a future world champion. He's making a fine adjustment to the pro game, and I expect he's about a year away from taking a shot at the middleweight title."
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:22 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professordp View Post
Damn this torpedo, and full speed ahead. And damned he was winning only twenty of his seventy-three pro fights! But to give a little credit, he was reported to have a pretty decent chin only failing to finish three times and counted out twice early in his eight year career. His other early departure was via TKO....In the last years of his career, he became pretty much wanderer, ultimately finding his way to the East Coast. In 1948, the Torpedo was launched in several New York venues, with one loss at Madison Square Garden and a loss to Lenny Mancini in Brooklyn's famed Braodway Arena.
Here's a guy I meant to post a little note about quite a while ago. According to the New York Times, he was managed by Henry Armstrong (described once as Armstrong's "protege"). NYT mentions him as a Beau Jack sparring partner when Jack was preparing for a bout at the Garden in the first week of 1946 (just about the time Reed had his first eastern fights, so that's probably what brought him east).

It strikes me that if he was taken under Armstrong's wing and was paid to sharpen up a fighter like Beau Jack, then perhaps he was regarded as having some skills or at least potential beyond what actually shows on his record, which certainly does not make it easy to understand what anybody might have seen in him.

I also meant to say that was a very nice writeup on Johnny Caruso, by the way.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:59 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Broadway Bulletin

July 5, 1949


Papp Flat in Seventh Win
"Injured Ribs" Stymies Hungarian

By Max Gold

Olympic gold medal winner Laszlo Papp turned in a mediocre performance against Utica's Chet Vinci but picked up a unanimous win last night in an eight rounder at St. Nicholas Arena.

Papp's manager, Al Weill, claimed that his fighter had a muscle tear along his rib cage going into the contest which hampered his effectiveness.

The twenty-two year old Vinci entered the ring with a weak 13-24-3 record, and it was expected that Papp would have an easy night. But Laszlo appeared to be slow getting out of the gate allowing Vinci to put the first four rounds in his column.

Papp moved deliberately around the ring but intiated little of the action. Vinci scored with well-timed counters to the body and head as Laszlo frequently was off-target with his punches.

At the close of the fourth, Papp returned to his corner where he was subjected to a non-stop tongue lashing from a very upset Charley Goldman.

Apparently Goldman's scolding worked as Papp came out aggressive in the fifth, pretty much punching Vinci around the ring for the full three minutes. As the final seconds of the frame ticked off, it looked like referee Walt Brown was ready to halt matters but then seemed to have second thoughts.

For the remainder of the fight, Vinci offered little in the way of resistence following his fifth round beating. Papp. however, didn't press matters too far despite the fact that his opponent obviously had nothing left.

There were no knockdowns. Two judges gave Papp a slight edge with scores of 77-75 with the third coming in more strongly for the Hungarian at 79-74.

In reality the win should go to Charley Goldman. Had he not shaken his fighter up after the fourth, there might have been an upset victory for Vinci.

There have been some questions among the boxing public about Papp's ability to finish an opponent. Thus far he's been fighting the lower ranks of the middleweight division but has only stopped one opponent, and that was by way of a TKO win over Izzy Blum in his last fight.

Papp's next match is scheduled for October 10th against Vic Costa, a beefed up welterweight from the Bronx. According to Weill, his fighter should be fully healed and ready for action.
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