'El Torito' - Page 5

PWillisTheMan · 03-18-2010, 08:59 AM

MDM loves him some Ayala. Good for him, but Ayala couldn't knock out Duran with a machine gun. While Boxing is the theater of the unexpected, it's difficult to take seriously an assessment of a fight like Ayala/Duran when all the questions posed are about Duran.

He wasn't old and slow as much as he was inconsistent. And you can bet your ass he would be up and ready for a fight like this. Nobody with Ayala's kind of style ever beat Duran. He adored somebody bringing the fight to him. School would be in session for the unproven bully.

Edit: The Hearns fight was determined by dimensions. speed and one of the greatest jabs the world has ever seen. Ayala has none of that.

MDM · 03-21-2010, 04:17 PM

If Duran can't KO Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims, how will he KO a young juggernaut like Tony, even if he does "train properly"? Duran, a natural LW, overpowering a younger, much stronger 154 lber, with true MW power? How is this logically possible?

El Torito is far too strong and unrelenting for the old LW king. Tony would've massacred Duran. Hagler would've too had he not been so passive.

BigBoyBrackey · 03-21-2010, 06:08 PM

Ayala never beat an opponent of substance, much less annihilate a Hall of Famer (who, for the record, was 32 years old in February 1984 -- the same age as Pacquiao today). His record, like most fighters at his stage of development, was built on stiffs and never-weres, some of whom built impressive-sounding records against even lesser lights (I'm looking at you, Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera).

Not only did Ayala snuff his own career before fighting anyone who ever held even an alphabet title, only one of his pre-prison opponents ever challenged for a belt (Steve Gregory, a KOby3 in '82 who lost a 15-round decision to Ayub Kalule three years before).

Rather than take the next step, Ayala raped a woman and went to prison. Maybe he would have continued to develop and lived up to his obvious potential. Or maybe he would have gotten his ass kicked by the first guy he couldn't bully.

Maybe he could have beaten Duran, though I highly doubt it, based on Duran's history, particularly when an underdog against less-experienced fighters (Leonard I, Moore, Barkley). Arguing that Ayala, who never beat a world-class, at-prime opponent, would do something that no one but Hearns ever did -- wipe out Duran -- is fine, and such conjecture is the point of all this. It's far from an irrefutable certainty, though.

Ian Lord · 03-22-2010, 03:23 PM

Thanks for the interest/predictions/views guys! I've really enjoyed reading them. I've finally got round to simming the fight and will [hopefully!] do the write-up tommorrow, so any more predictions in the meantime are more than welcome.

Has Ayala retained his WBA strap, or is Duran this bulls matador?!!

Rob Morris · 03-22-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Lord

Thanks for the interest/predictions/views guys! I've really enjoyed reading them. I've finally got round to simming the fight and will [hopefully!] do the write-up tommorrow, so any more predictions in the meantime are more than welcome.

Has Ayala retained his WBA strap, or is Duran this bulls matador?!!

You tease Ian!!

PWillisTheMan · 03-23-2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDM

If Duran can't KO Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims, how will he KO a young juggernaut like Tony, even if he does "train properly"? Duran, a natural LW, overpowering a younger, much stronger 154 lber, with true MW power? How is this logically possible?

El Torito is far too strong and unrelenting for the old LW king. Tony would've massacred Duran. Hagler would've too had he not been so passive.

El Torito was fat and quite possibly weak in the chin. Tony could only dream of beating Duran. If's rule his world and this is one that has an emphatic HELL NO next to it.

Ian Lord · 03-23-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Morris

You tease Ian!!

The wait is finally over!

Ian Lord · 03-23-2010, 03:23 PM

San Antonio Express-News

WAR!!!

by Tex Bacon

The title says it all folks! WBA junior-middle champ Tony Ayala, and former lightweight and welterweight king Roberto Duran squared of, and for the eleven minutes and forty-seven seconds that it lasted, we had a war!

The venue was Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas, the date February 11th. It was twenty-one year old Ayala's third defense of the strap he brutally wrested from Davey Moore, and many felt that it was going to be his toughest, as standing in the opposite corner was the living legend, Roberto Duran.

Beforehand this match-up split fight folk down the middle. Many felt that Ayala's power, ferocity and youth would be to much for the thirty-two Duran. Others felt that Ayala was not in Duran's league. Heated debates raged in bars up and down the country. Now was the time to find out.

Both men cut to the chase in the opener. There was no feeling out process in this fight. The bad blood between the two combatants was well known, as witnessed by the press conference brawl a few days previous. They picked up where they left off. Those who thought that Duran was possibly past it were wrong. He looked the younger man, landing hurtful shots on the defending champ, who at times had a look of bewilderment on his face. He wasn't used to this. Ayala did land some good shots, but the round went to the challenger.

Father'trainer Tony Ayala snr fired his son up between rounds, and Ayala came rushing out for the second with renewed intent, immediately cornering Duran and letting rip down and up. This was a big round for Ayala, and it remained to be seen how Duran would cope.

The crowd were on their feet for the third. It was a slugfest!!! This was what it's all about. We all appreciate good, slick boxing skills, but we all love it when they go toe to toe like these two warriors did. There was nothing seperating the two as the bell went, signalling the end of the round. How would both men fare after this round. The answer was that the younger Ayala fared much better than Duran, whose thirty-trwo years, and eighty-one ring battles seemed to catch up with him. Ayala came out, looking to carry on where he left off, and Duran seemed to have no answer. A pulverising body attack knocked the wind out off Duran, who by the two-minute mark looked to be in serious trouble, and was trying to hang on. Ayala shrugged him off and landed a spiteful shot to the head. Duran was on queer street, and Ayala followed up, landing blow after blow at will until Carlos Padilla stepped in at the 2.47 mark to halt procedings. Ayala jumped for joy, but Duran, brave to the end, went out on his shield.

PWillisTheMan · 03-23-2010, 03:30 PM

Hogwash

BigBoyBrackey · 03-23-2010, 09:17 PM

Since this is an exercise in what-if, an Ayala who had continued to improve and beaten world champions in Moore and Benitez might have been able to take out Duran. I doubt the real El Torito could have done it, but then, I doubt he would have beaten Benitez, and possibly Moore, either.

This Tony, though, has been able to keep himself under 154 pounds and out of prison, so who knows?

Still can't see him getting past, or even near, Hearns, though.

(not sure what ratings Ian is using, but I ran the database Ayala vs. Duran at middleweight a few hundred times, and the results couldn't have been closer.)

MDM · 03-24-2010, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

El Torito was fat and quite possibly weak in the chin. Tony could only dream of beating Duran. If's rule his world and this is one that has an emphatic HELL NO next to it.

Tony Ayala was a bag of muscle who hit with power Duran could only dream of. Duran would NEVER beat Tony, Duran was only a LW. To think that Duran could possibly handle Tony is based on Duran's longevity/popularity and nothing else.

MDM · 03-24-2010, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

Hogwash

No, realistic!

MDM · 03-24-2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Lord

San Antonio Express-News

WAR!!!

by Tex Bacon

The title says it all folks! WBA junior-middle champ Tony Ayala, and former lightweight and welterweight king Roberto Duran squared of, and for the eleven minutes and forty-seven seconds that it lasted, we had a war!

The venue was Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas, the date February 11th. It was twenty-one year old Ayala's third defense of the strap he brutally wrested from Davey Moore, and many felt that it was going to be his toughest, as standing in the opposite corner was the living legend, Roberto Duran.

Beforehand this match-up split fight folk down the middle. Many felt that Ayala's power, ferocity and youth would be to much for the thirty-two Duran. Others felt that Ayala was not in Duran's league. Heated debates raged in bars up and down the country. Now was the time to find out.

Both men cut to the chase in the opener. There was no feeling out process in this fight. The bad blood between the two combatants was well known, as witnessed by the press conference brawl a few days previous. They picked up where they left off. Those who thought that Duran was possibly past it were wrong. He looked the younger man, landing hurtful shots on the defending champ, who at times had a look of bewilderment on his face. He wasn't used to this. Ayala did land some good shots, but the round went to the challenger.

Father'trainer Tony Ayala snr fired his son up between rounds, and Ayala came rushing out for the second with renewed intent, immediately cornering Duran and letting rip down and up. This was a big round for Ayala, and it remained to be seen how Duran would cope.

The crowd were on their feet for the third. It was a slugfest!!! This was what it's all about. We all appreciate good, slick boxing skills, but we all love it when they go toe to toe like these two warriors did. There was nothing seperating the two as the bell went, signalling the end of the round. How would both men fare after this round. The answer was that the younger Ayala fared much better than Duran, whose thirty-trwo years, and eighty-one ring battles seemed to catch up with him. Ayala came out, looking to carry on where he left off, and Duran seemed to have no answer. A pulverising body attack knocked the wind out off Duran, who by the two-minute mark looked to be in serious trouble, and was trying to hang on. Ayala shrugged him off and landed a spiteful shot to the head. Duran was on queer street, and Ayala followed up, landing blow after blow at will until Carlos Padilla stepped in at the 2.47 mark to halt procedings. Ayala jumped for joy, but Duran, brave to the end, went out on his shield.

I myself always predicted Tony to take out Duran in 5, but I can live with this!

PWillisTheMan · 03-24-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDM

Tony Ayala was a bag of muscle who hit with power Duran could only dream of. Duran would NEVER beat Tony, Duran was only a LW. To think that Duran could possibly handle Tony is based on Duran's longevity/popularity and nothing else.

You're a madman.

Crimson · 03-26-2010, 08:00 AM

Great writeup Ian! Exciting fight. All very cool.

Ian Lord · 03-31-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBoyBrackey

Since this is an exercise in what-if, an Ayala who had continued to improve and beaten world champions in Moore and Benitez might have been able to take out Duran. I doubt the real El Torito could have done it, but then, I doubt he would have beaten Benitez, and possibly Moore, either.

This Tony, though, has been able to keep himself under 154 pounds and out of prison, so who knows?

Still can't see him getting past, or even near, Hearns, though.

(not sure what ratings Ian is using, but I ran the database Ayala vs. Duran at middleweight a few hundred times, and the results couldn't have been closer.)

I'm using these ratings. Hope they uploaded.

Ian Lord · 03-31-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson

Great writeup Ian! Exciting fight. All very cool.

Cheers Crimson. Appreciated!

Ian Lord · 04-20-2010, 03:47 PM

San Antonio Express-News

UNIFICATION

by Tex Bacon

It's on folks. The big one in the rough and tumble junior middle division has been signed and sealed, just not yet delivered. WBA champ Tony Ayala will square of against his WBC counterpart, Tommy 'Hit Man' Hearns, to see who will be top dog.

The venue will again be Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas. Ayala will enter the ring with a 27-0 [24] record, and making the fourth defense of the strap he won against Davey Moore, whilst Hearns carries a 38-1 [32] record into the fight, and will be making the second defense of the strap he won from Wilfred Benitez.

Betting Sport · 04-21-2010, 03:58 PM

Hit Man with a tenth round stoppage says I.

CONN CHRIS · 04-21-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betting Sport

Hit Man with a tenth round stoppage says I.

Oddly enough, I feel the same way!

03-18-2010, 08:59 AM	#81 (permalink)
PWillisTheMan All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,872 Thanks: 85 Thanked 196x in 188 posts	MDM loves him some Ayala. Good for him, but Ayala couldn't knock out Duran with a machine gun. While Boxing is the theater of the unexpected, it's difficult to take seriously an assessment of a fight like Ayala/Duran when all the questions posed are about Duran. He wasn't old and slow as much as he was inconsistent. And you can bet your ass he would be up and ready for a fight like this. Nobody with Ayala's kind of style ever beat Duran. He adored somebody bringing the fight to him. School would be in session for the unproven bully. Edit: The Hearns fight was determined by dimensions. speed and one of the greatest jabs the world has ever seen. Ayala has none of that. Last edited by PWillisTheMan; 03-18-2010 at 09:04 AM.

03-21-2010, 04:17 PM	#82 (permalink)
MDM Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 44 Thanks: 0 Thanked 45x in 43 posts	Ayala by annihilation If Duran can't KO Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims, how will he KO a young juggernaut like Tony, even if he does "train properly"? Duran, a natural LW, overpowering a younger, much stronger 154 lber, with true MW power? How is this logically possible? El Torito is far too strong and unrelenting for the old LW king. Tony would've massacred Duran. Hagler would've too had he not been so passive. Last edited by MDM; 03-21-2010 at 04:24 PM.

03-21-2010, 06:08 PM	#83 (permalink)
BigBoyBrackey All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Buffalo, N.Y. Posts: 854 Thanks: 36 Thanked 42x in 42 posts	Ayala never beat an opponent of substance, much less annihilate a Hall of Famer (who, for the record, was 32 years old in February 1984 -- the same age as Pacquiao today). His record, like most fighters at his stage of development, was built on stiffs and never-weres, some of whom built impressive-sounding records against even lesser lights (I'm looking at you, Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera). Not only did Ayala snuff his own career before fighting anyone who ever held even an alphabet title, only one of his pre-prison opponents ever challenged for a belt (Steve Gregory, a KOby3 in '82 who lost a 15-round decision to Ayub Kalule three years before). Rather than take the next step, Ayala raped a woman and went to prison. Maybe he would have continued to develop and lived up to his obvious potential. Or maybe he would have gotten his ass kicked by the first guy he couldn't bully. Maybe he could have beaten Duran, though I highly doubt it, based on Duran's history, particularly when an underdog against less-experienced fighters (Leonard I, Moore, Barkley). Arguing that Ayala, who never beat a world-class, at-prime opponent, would do something that no one but Hearns ever did -- wipe out Duran -- is fine, and such conjecture is the point of all this. It's far from an irrefutable certainty, though. __________________ He Coulda Been a Champion: A Greg Page Memorial Uni (Imagining a world of 1980s heavyweights without Don King) The Greatest of This Time: Present-day division-by-division tournaments The Big Fellows (Various and Sundry Heavyweight Tournaments) Shoulda' But Didna': Great Fights That Never Were

03-23-2010, 09:17 PM	#90 (permalink)
BigBoyBrackey All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Buffalo, N.Y. Posts: 854 Thanks: 36 Thanked 42x in 42 posts	Since this is an exercise in what-if, an Ayala who had continued to improve and beaten world champions in Moore and Benitez might have been able to take out Duran. I doubt the real El Torito could have done it, but then, I doubt he would have beaten Benitez, and possibly Moore, either. This Tony, though, has been able to keep himself under 154 pounds and out of prison, so who knows? Still can't see him getting past, or even near, Hearns, though. (not sure what ratings Ian is using, but I ran the database Ayala vs. Duran at middleweight a few hundred times, and the results couldn't have been closer.) __________________ He Coulda Been a Champion: A Greg Page Memorial Uni (Imagining a world of 1980s heavyweights without Don King) The Greatest of This Time: Present-day division-by-division tournaments The Big Fellows (Various and Sundry Heavyweight Tournaments) Shoulda' But Didna': Great Fights That Never Were

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03-22-2010, 03:23 PM	#84 (permalink)
Ian Lord All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Coventry, England. Posts: 1,672 Thanks: 270 Thanked 29x in 29 posts	Thanks for the interest/predictions/views guys! I've really enjoyed reading them. I've finally got round to simming the fight and will [hopefully!] do the write-up tommorrow, so any more predictions in the meantime are more than welcome. Has Ayala retained his WBA strap, or is Duran this bulls matador?!!

03-23-2010, 03:23 PM	#88 (permalink)
Ian Lord All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Coventry, England. Posts: 1,672 Thanks: 270 Thanked 29x in 29 posts	San Antonio Express-News WAR!!! by Tex Bacon The title says it all folks! WBA junior-middle champ Tony Ayala, and former lightweight and welterweight king Roberto Duran squared of, and for the eleven minutes and forty-seven seconds that it lasted, we had a war! The venue was Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas, the date February 11th. It was twenty-one year old Ayala's third defense of the strap he brutally wrested from Davey Moore, and many felt that it was going to be his toughest, as standing in the opposite corner was the living legend, Roberto Duran. Beforehand this match-up split fight folk down the middle. Many felt that Ayala's power, ferocity and youth would be to much for the thirty-two Duran. Others felt that Ayala was not in Duran's league. Heated debates raged in bars up and down the country. Now was the time to find out. Both men cut to the chase in the opener. There was no feeling out process in this fight. The bad blood between the two combatants was well known, as witnessed by the press conference brawl a few days previous. They picked up where they left off. Those who thought that Duran was possibly past it were wrong. He looked the younger man, landing hurtful shots on the defending champ, who at times had a look of bewilderment on his face. He wasn't used to this. Ayala did land some good shots, but the round went to the challenger. Father'trainer Tony Ayala snr fired his son up between rounds, and Ayala came rushing out for the second with renewed intent, immediately cornering Duran and letting rip down and up. This was a big round for Ayala, and it remained to be seen how Duran would cope. The crowd were on their feet for the third. It was a slugfest!!! This was what it's all about. We all appreciate good, slick boxing skills, but we all love it when they go toe to toe like these two warriors did. There was nothing seperating the two as the bell went, signalling the end of the round. How would both men fare after this round. The answer was that the younger Ayala fared much better than Duran, whose thirty-trwo years, and eighty-one ring battles seemed to catch up with him. Ayala came out, looking to carry on where he left off, and Duran seemed to have no answer. A pulverising body attack knocked the wind out off Duran, who by the two-minute mark looked to be in serious trouble, and was trying to hang on. Ayala shrugged him off and landed a spiteful shot to the head. Duran was on queer street, and Ayala followed up, landing blow after blow at will until Carlos Padilla stepped in at the 2.47 mark to halt procedings. Ayala jumped for joy, but Duran, brave to the end, went out on his shield.

03-23-2010, 03:30 PM	#89 (permalink)
PWillisTheMan All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,872 Thanks: 85 Thanked 196x in 188 posts	Hogwash

03-26-2010, 08:00 AM	#95 (permalink)
Crimson All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 996 Thanks: 682 Thanked 55x in 52 posts	Great writeup Ian! Exciting fight. All very cool.

04-20-2010, 03:47 PM	#98 (permalink)
Ian Lord All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Coventry, England. Posts: 1,672 Thanks: 270 Thanked 29x in 29 posts	San Antonio Express-News UNIFICATION by Tex Bacon It's on folks. The big one in the rough and tumble junior middle division has been signed and sealed, just not yet delivered. WBA champ Tony Ayala will square of against his WBC counterpart, Tommy 'Hit Man' Hearns, to see who will be top dog. The venue will again be Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas. Ayala will enter the ring with a 27-0 [24] record, and making the fourth defense of the strap he won against Davey Moore, whilst Hearns carries a 38-1 [32] record into the fight, and will be making the second defense of the strap he won from Wilfred Benitez.

04-21-2010, 03:58 PM	#99 (permalink)
Betting Sport Minors (Single A) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: At the window Posts: 71 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Hit Man with a tenth round stoppage says I.